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Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

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jon0844

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Why wouldn't you blame Siemens if a 700 fails? They have a contract to supply nn working trains per day. If they can't, how does a TOC run a service?

And I didn't defend GTR, I gave a possible reason. It seems you simply don't care what the real issue is and just want to bash GTR.

(to make clear: it can still technically be the 'fault' of GTR in all cases, but I quite like to know the reasons for things and understand where the issues are. You come across as someone who doesn't really care.)
 
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bramling

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Why wouldn't you blame Siemens if a 700 fails? They have a contract to supply nn working trains per day. If they can't, how does a TOC run a service?

And I didn't defend GTR, I gave a possible reason. It seems you simply don't care what the real issue is and just want to bash GTR.

GTR haven’t covered themselves in glory over the past year, and in fact since taking over the GN/TL operation.

Whilst I don’t hold them primarily responsible as ultimately it’s the DFT’s pet project, GTR have shown themselves to be out of touch at best, duplicitous at worst, and at the same time the amount of empathy shown towards their unfortunate passengers has been something between nought and zero.

So is it any wonder people are keen to bash GTR? I’d suggest the level of “GTR bashing” on here is rather informed, measured and proportionate compared to what it might be amongst the wider local rail-using community!

That Boon story of a few months ago sort of epitomises GTR in one picture - arrogant, remote and out of touch.
 

jon0844

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I get that but am sure people on here want to find out the facts than just launch into a rant. That's what the average passenger does. The type that expects longer trains, or for a new train to be pulled out of a yard somewhere complete with crew etc.
 

Failed Unit

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Why wouldn't you blame Siemens if a 700 fails? They have a contract to supply nn working trains per day. If they can't, how does a TOC run a service?

And I didn't defend GTR, I gave a possible reason. It seems you simply don't care what the real issue is and just want to bash GTR.

(to make clear: it can still technically be the 'fault' of GTR in all cases, but I quite like to know the reasons for things and understand where the issues are. You come across as someone who doesn't really care.)

But even if the speculative reason you gave was correct. It is down to GTR. You were basically saying we should forgive GTR because it isnt their fault they can’t manage suppliers. Many consecutive trains cancelled this morning. This is not good enough.

As for bashing GTR why not? I use them. You don’t (as often). My working day is now 45 minutes longer because of their botched attempt to run a timetable. The weekend service is still unusable. GTR get unpublished for over 2 years of disruption on Great Northern. (Longer on Southern) I am totally amazed as a rail enthusiast you find this situation acceptable. They are damaging the industry forcing people to drive. Why is this acceptable? Why is it acceptable that they frequently leave hundreds of passengers on platforms while the chose to run empty trains fast past them. Trains that should have picked them up. Then when you look at real time feeds actually got later with less stops. Is this the model operator you feel should run a franchise?

I have never yet seen you have a bad word to say about GTR. But I feel for the staff that work for them. I definitely feel for the rail industry when enthusiasts are saying they are doing nothing wrong.

As a user. What exactly have GTR given me in past 12 months? Trains that are less comfortable than what they replaced, (ok maybe daft fault) longer journey times and a less reliable timetable? Why should I be happy?
 
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radamfi

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They are still blocking the northbound platform at London Bridge with the 0721 to Bedford, even though it was a problem in the previous timetable.
 

jon0844

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I am not expecting anyone not to hold GTR ultimately responsible.

But I don't understand why you don't seem to want to know more than you might ranting with work colleagues or in the pub about how bad the trains are, as most people do.

You also seem to like getting all pedantic - like when I said a train on the fast can't stop at WGC and you said they could because of the signals. You knew exactly what I meant!

I have said many times how bad the service is, in particular weekends (such that I either don't travel or go from St Albans), but when you make wild accusations a lot of people step in to add some balance. Then they get accused of being apologists!

I like to think it's because most people want to know why. It doesn't mean they like it or are letting anyone off the hook.

From what I can see a lot of train movements got things back to normal quite quickly. Extra units down from Letchworth, the previous cancelled King's Cross train put into the WGC sidings brought out later to form a service starting there to King's Cross, and at least one stop order on a King's Lynn service at WGC to run fast to King's Cross.

I don't know when you travel but after around 7am (if not before) as far as I can see everything south ran from your station.
 

Failed Unit

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You have a speculative reason. Not a factual one.

However irrespective why are GTR not learning?

The taxi bookings have caused problems.
Finsbury Park causes problems.
Skip stopping doesn’t work when you are behind a slow train.

But these are 3 examples of things GTR don’t learn from.

Introducing new trains. 387s, 700s were all late and with problems. I dont seriously believe network rail are 100% guilty for the 717s even if they have a large contribution for the resignalling what action did GTR take once they knew it was cancelled?

As I said. My journeys are much worse on all measurements than this time last year. Cancelled trains because of no taxi? Unheard of last year.

GTR need a punishment- one to focus them on improving. One that will hit bonuses and shareholders. So far they have made travel harder for thousands and just get fined and equivalent of 1 weeks pocket money. Is that an incentive to actually run things as per contract? Yes I know DFT are to blame for having weak enforcement, but could they have predicted that GTR would be so bad?
 

Skimble19

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As I said. My journeys are much worse on all measurements than this time last year. Cancelled trains because of no taxi? Unheard of last year.
Not defending it in the slightest, but it definitely wasn't unheard of.. I'll agree it was far less common but it definitely used to happen too - mainly early morning. Completely agree it needs sorting though, and ASAP.
 

sprunt

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Do any other TOCs have anything close to as many trains cancelled because of lack of availability of staff (not counting strike action) as GTR do?
 

samuelmorris

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In the grand scheme of things GTR's new stock introductions don't seem to have been that late at all. It's just the day to day service that's pretty lacklustre.

Are there not regulations that stipulate how early drivers are to arrive if they're on company-booked taxis? I would have thought they should allow enough time for, if a taxi hasn't turned up, to dispatch another from elsewhere. Taxis not turning up when they're supposed to is a pretty common occurrence let's be honest. This doesn't seem like an insurmountable problem. I'm much more sympathetic towards infrastructure-related issues.
 

jfollows

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Do any other TOCs have anything close to as many trains cancelled because of lack of availability of staff (not counting strike action) as GTR do?
Funny you should ask that question, there's an article in The Times today which goes into precisely this.
The answer to your question appears to be "no", that Northern is the second-worst TOC for cancellations due to staff shortages, and I think I read the article and figures to exclude cancellations for strike reasons from the figures, although I'm not 100% sure of this.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/...-lead-to-35-000-train-cancellations-bwk05lmp2 is a link to the article on-line, but I'm posting it below because I know it's behind a "paywall".
Rail crew shortages lead to 35,000 train cancellations
Graeme Paton, Transport Correspondent | Louis Goddard


February 4 2019, 9:00am, The Times

The number of trains cancelled because of staff shortages has risen almost fivefold in six years amid claims that companies are running the network on the cheap.

Analysis by The Times shows that 35,030 services were cancelled in the past year because of a lack of available train crew, often leaving passengers stranded at stations. The figure increased by more than a third in a year and represents a fivefold rise from just 7,188 six years earlier.

Cancellations caused by crew shortages — usually the unavailability of drivers — accounted for more than one in five trains that failed to run last year. It was about twice the number of cancellations blamed on bad weather or signal failures.

Critics have accused operators of skimping by employing drivers on four-day weeks and relying on them working overtime to run a full timetable.

The overtime system, which stretches back to the days of British Rail, creates a high risk of cancellations because of sudden sick leave or last-minute roster changes. It also leaves rail lines vulnerable to industrial action. Two years ago thousands of Southern Rail trains were cancelled when the drivers’ union Aslef imposed an overtime ban after a row over driver-only operated trains

Research last year found that drivers on 18 out of the 20 largest operators were on a four-day week, supplementing their income by up to £340 to work at least one of their rest days.

Anthony Smith, chief executive of Transport Focus, the passenger watchdog, said: “These arrangements are hugely outdated and leave the railway more fragile than it needs to be. There is nothing more infuriating than when you learn that the train is there, the tracks are working, the passengers are waiting but the train cannot run because there isn’t a driver.”

The Times analysed cancellation data from the Office of Rail and Road (ORR). It showed that 157,917 passenger trains were cancelled on the network in the year to October 2018. Of these, 35,030 were caused by staff shortages.

Train companies insisted that the figures reflected ambitious new timetables introduced in May, which stretched operators in the north and southeast of England to breaking point. The ORR figures show that Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR) — the country’s biggest operator which was hit by the chaos — had the most cancellations with 18,197, up by 7 per cent in 12 months. Cancellations on Northern Rail rose by 261 per cent to 5,609.

However, staff-related cancellations increased last year for 17 out of 23 companies, including those not heavily implicated in the timetable fiasco. The number was up by 222 per cent on TransPennine Express, 141 per cent on Great Western and 137 per cent on London Overground.

methode%2Ftimes%2Fprod%2Fweb%2Fbin%2Ffc518936-2807-11e9-9121-cbec20cbd1bc.png

Crew cancellations have increased in five out of the past six years and almost fivefold over this period. This has far outstripped the rise in overall cancellations, which have doubled, in part because of a big rise in the number of trains running on the network.

The Rail Delivery Group, which represents train companies, said: “We know how important it is for our customers that their train arrives on time and we’re sorry when it doesn’t. Repeated industrial action . . . is a significant factor, as are major events like the Beast from the East and the May 2018 timetable change, when hundreds of extra services were introduced.”

A GTR spokesman said: “As is standard across the industry, we rely on drivers working on rest days to cover high levels of absence for annual leave, short-term sickness and training. Unfortunately, in the extremely rare event that all these occur at once, there might not be enough drivers available at very short notice to cover every service.”

Mick Whelan, the general secretary of Aslef, added: “These figures show just how bad some of the services, would have been if Aslef members hadn’t gone above and beyond by working the overtime.”
 
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jon0844

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You have a speculative reason. Not a factual one.

However irrespective why are GTR not learning?

The taxi bookings have caused problems.
Finsbury Park causes problems.
Skip stopping doesn’t work when you are behind a slow train.

But these are 3 examples of things GTR don’t learn from.

Introducing new trains. 387s, 700s were all late and with problems. I dont seriously believe network rail are 100% guilty for the 717s even if they have a large contribution for the resignalling what action did GTR take once they knew it was cancelled?

As I said. My journeys are much worse on all measurements than this time last year. Cancelled trains because of no taxi? Unheard of last year.

GTR need a punishment- one to focus them on improving. One that will hit bonuses and shareholders. So far they have made travel harder for thousands and just get fined and equivalent of 1 weeks pocket money. Is that an incentive to actually run things as per contract? Yes I know DFT are to blame for having weak enforcement, but could they have predicted that GTR would be so bad?

According to GTR the latest period is the best performance since they took over. So there must be some improvements, even if you clearly aren't seeing them (or don't want to believe it).

Obviously if you've hit rock bottom then the only way is up, but these figures are compared to pre carnag, sorry, May 2018.

I get the feeling that while you think I'm some GTR fanboy, you are really not particularly interested in what the causes of these problems are. It's simply GTRs fault, end of.

Even things outside of its control (like the failing 700s that keep getting mentioned here, the 313s that are definitely causing issues all over, and more recent issues like the 717 stop boards/signal sighting/lighting that keep moving and then require all new re-testing) you're not bothered about because, why should you? A delay is a delay is a delay.

At least the upside of the late introduction of the 717s is that more and more drivers will be 700/717 trained in the meantime. At least I hope that's happening.
 

Failed Unit

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The problem with this is it doesn’t cover the % of services they run. GTR run more trains than most other TOCs.

However. If you look across the Great Northern, Southern. Thameslink and Gatwick Express.

I suspect GN has the highest %. Sunday’s in particular have being shocking for years. During the 387 introduction vast bits of the peak were regularly cancelled. But must admit much worse now generally on GN. Southern probably dilutes the %.
 

Failed Unit

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According to GTR the latest period is the best performance since they took over. So there must be some improvements, even if you clearly aren't seeing them (or don't want to believe it).

Obviously if you've hit rock bottom then the only way is up, but these figures are compared to pre carnag, sorry, May 2018.

I get the feeling that while you think I'm some GTR fanboy, you are really not particularly interested in what the causes of these problems are. It's simply GTRs fault, end of.

Even things outside of its control (like the failing 700s that keep getting mentioned here, the 313s that are definitely causing issues all over, and more recent issues like the 717 stop boards/signal sighting/lighting that keep moving and then require all new re-testing) you're not bothered about because, why should you? A delay is a delay is a delay.

At least the upside of the late introduction of the 717s is that more and more drivers will be 700/717 trained in the meantime. At least I hope that's happening.

Of course I am bothered by the cause. But often people speculate such as the taxi didn’t turn up rather than post facts. Or Automatically defend why a train didn’t stop a a station - implying it wasnt supposed to stop in the first place.

What concerns me is why these things keep happening.

So I am all ears. When GTR have no relief driver at Finsbury Park. Why don’t they tell network rail not to put the London - Cambridge service behind it. When 1. It probably has the driver riding pass. 2. You are shafting multiple trains. Why don’t GTR pay to use TFL?

It keeps happening. As for best performance as you say it is from a very low base. So not worth celebrating. Certainly well below what we should be seeing. Yes things are better than they were, but when things go wrong disruption takes all day to fix. They have no plan to recover the service.
 

OwenB

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More cancellations this evening. This time on the Moorgate line. 17.15 & 17.30 to WGC. Sigh.
 

Class315

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Of course I am bothered by the cause. But often people speculate such as the taxi didn’t turn up rather than post facts. Or Automatically defend why a train didn’t stop a a station - implying it wasnt supposed to stop in the first place.

What concerns me is why these things keep happening.

So I am all ears. When GTR have no relief driver at Finsbury Park. Why don’t they tell network rail not to put the London - Cambridge service behind it. When 1. It probably has the driver riding pass. 2. You are shafting multiple trains. Why don’t GTR pay to use TFL?

It keeps happening. As for best performance as you say it is from a very low base. So not worth celebrating. Certainly well below what we should be seeing. Yes things are better than they were, but when things go wrong disruption takes all day to fix. They have no plan to recover the service.


When GTR have no relief on the xx:24 & xx:54, their is often a lapse in communication more noticeable now SDC aren't within the signal box at King's Cross; I always felt that with the re-development of Finsbury Park a platform should have been instated on the Down Goods.

Skip stopping only appears to be more visible since the last May timetable, but it was ever present prior to May 18 just not as frequent. I Know I frequently wrote out Not to stop orders on some services and in other cases wrote out Additional stop orders at Weekends and late evenings when inner WGC services where cancelled.
 

jfollows

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The problem with this is it doesn’t cover the % of services they run. GTR run more trains than most other TOCs.
If you take the figures from the article I quoted, and then compare them against the number of services scheduled by TOC, such as the "trains planned" figures for each TOC at http://orr.gov.uk/statistics/published-stats/statistical-releases , then I calculate the highest percentages of "trains cancelled because of staff shortages" as a percentage of the "trains planned" figure to be 1.59% for GTR. There is no other TOC with a figure greater than 1% on this metric. The next "worst" TOCs are TPE (0.67%), Northern (0.66%) and GWR (0.65%). 7 TOCs (ATW, CS, LO, Merseyrail, SE, VTEC & VTWC) have figures 0.10% or lower. "Trains planned" figures are from year 2017-2018 published in July 2018 (data range 1 April 2017 to 31 March 2018) whereas the cancellation figures are annual figures to October 2018.

On a little reflection this probably distorts the comparison and makes GTR's figures appear worse than they actually are - their "trains planned" figure will be lower than it should be because it covers the annual period prior to the new timetable, whereas the cancellation figures include 6 months of the new timetable when more trains will have been scheduled. However, even if you increase the number of "trains planned" for GTR by 25% (say, to try and reflect the additional trains which were scheduled May-October 2018) the percentage from the comparison still looks bad (1.59% becomes 1.27%).

So don't take my calculations too seriously, they aren't completely sound and a better comparison would of course use the same annual ranges of dates for both sets of data.
 
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bramling

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According to GTR the latest period is the best performance since they took over. So there must be some improvements, even if you clearly aren't seeing them (or don't want to believe it).

Obviously if you've hit rock bottom then the only way is up, but these figures are compared to pre carnag, sorry, May 2018.

I get the feeling that while you think I'm some GTR fanboy, you are really not particularly interested in what the causes of these problems are. It's simply GTRs fault, end of.

Even things outside of its control (like the failing 700s that keep getting mentioned here, the 313s that are definitely causing issues all over, and more recent issues like the 717 stop boards/signal sighting/lighting that keep moving and then require all new re-testing) you're not bothered about because, why should you? A delay is a delay is a delay.

At least the upside of the late introduction of the 717s is that more and more drivers will be 700/717 trained in the meantime. At least I hope that's happening.

One thing I will say, I do get a small sense that in the last couple of months GTR seem to be *trying* to improve. In particular their comms has improved a bit, although they still seem to have a habit of publically blaming others when things go wrong, sometimes fairly but not always. Since Christmas performance has improved, and at least when cancellations do occur they to tend to be planned and communicated out a bit better now, so that at least one can reliably check before leaving home/work.

However like you say they're improving from an unprecedently low base, to which things should never have sunk in the first place. Perhaps Horton's departure was the catalyst for improvement - he seems to have been associated with problems wherever he has been.

GTR's failings have only ever been a side-show, a bit of extra brown liquid surrounding the real turd which is the DFT's Thameslink Programme, and the fact that it has given us an inherently unreliable service.
 

samuelmorris

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Some of GTR's management is actually fairly reasonable, their website isn't bad as TOC sites go and seemingly despite the colossal amount they must be paying out, I hear their DR process is far from the worst either. This makes it all the more surprising that the actual part of running a railway seems to be so beyond them. By contrast I found SWR's customer service markedly inferior.
 

Failed Unit

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Some of GTR's management is actually fairly reasonable, their website isn't bad as TOC sites go and seemingly despite the colossal amount they must be paying out, I hear their DR process is far from the worst either. This makes it all the more surprising that the actual part of running a railway seems to be so beyond them. By contrast I found SWR's customer service markedly inferior.

Who’s delay repay is worse?

I find the process as follows.

Spend ages inputting details.
Get annoyed with recaptca.
Get it rejected.
Appeal needing to enter exactly the same data as previously.
Get paid

GTR are hoping most will give up so the can pocket the money. Most others TOCs I have used don’t use recapture. Most others allow you to just use the reference number of the original claim to appeal. But it is the most difficult process I have used in the rail industry. We could have worse but I used to spend 45 minutes every weekend after the timetable change claiming for the previous weeks delays or reclaiming after claims were incorrectly rejected.
 

samuelmorris

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Who’s delay repay is worse?

I find the process as follows.

Spend ages inputting details.
Get annoyed with recaptca.
Get it rejected.
Appeal needing to enter exactly the same data as previously.
Get paid

GTR are hoping most will give up so the can pocket the money. Most others TOCs I have used don’t use recapture. Most others allow you to just use the reference number of the original claim to appeal. But it is the most difficult process I have used in the rail industry. We could have worse but I used to spend 45 minutes every weekend after the timetable change claiming for the previous weeks delays or reclaiming after claims were incorrectly rejected.
An article was recently published, I forget where, about the amount of time it takes to get delay repay approved and paid, GTR were nowhere near the bottom of that list as I recall. SWR, FGW and TPE I believe all scored quite poorly, notable as they're all Firstgroup franchises.
In the early days of SWR I had to escalate a DR claim to management and still had it rejected, despite being valid. I decided against court action over 10 quid. I've had a very occasional DR claim with GTR and it's come through OK without fuss. Likewise numerous ones with Greater Anglia, almost universally no hassle, and received within a couple of weeks tops.
 

Failed Unit

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Not defending it in the slightest, but it definitely wasn't unheard of.. I'll agree it was far less common but it definitely used to happen too - mainly early morning. Completely agree it needs sorting though, and ASAP.

Must admit I never really noticed pre May. But normally unless something had gone badly wrong it was very unusual to have consecutive trains cancelled.

Now it is much more common such as tonight having the 1715 and 1730 Moorgate - WGC cancelled. Not sure if Brookmans park or Welham Green got any additional stops. But this kind of event happens much more frequently now.

I do remember the bad old days of We Are Going Nowhere. But maybe time heals but don’t remember them as bad as now.(although now is better than July) it still isn’t good enough.
 

OwenB

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Must admit I never really noticed pre May. But normally unless something had gone badly wrong it was very unusual to have consecutive trains cancelled.

Now it is much more common such as tonight having the 1715 and 1730 Moorgate - WGC cancelled. Not sure if Brookmans park or Welham Green got any additional stops. But this kind of event happens much more frequently now.

I do remember the bad old days of We Are Going Nowhere. But maybe time heals but don’t remember them as bad as now.(although now is better than July) it still isn’t good enough.
Ugh, I was on the 17.35 MOG-FPK. So disgusting and crowded, felt unsafe (although all the engineers will tell me it's fine) and thoroughly unpleasant. I remember a couple of Fridays ago when they cancelled about 5/8 peak trains from MOG-FPK because of staffing issues. Not good enough.

It's also about time someone in management explained why the new 717s are so elusive, especially given the number of breakdowns in the cold last week.
 

jon0844

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This is a 'new' second underpass at street level, which will link the new lifts between street level and both LU platforms (just opened) and the NR platforms (may not be open yet). This new street level underpass is slightly below the level of the 'normal' underpass, the one you are referring to - and isn't really new, the passage way forming it was there already, but not part of the station accessible to the public; the extra lifts are new of course.

The two underpasses are linked by previously existing stairs at the Station Place end, where until recently you had no option but to turn right and ascend. The lift that already accessed the platform 1 and 2 Island is just to the right of this set of stairs. As you enter the station at this point the wall in front of you is now opened up to the new passageway. I hope this is a clear description! I presume it will be connected to the Wells Terrace entrance when the development completes on that side of the station...

Some pictures. Forgot to take photos of the lifts!
IMG_20190204_154550.jpg IMG_20190204_154517.jpg IMG_20190204_154434.jpg IMG_20190204_154538.jpg
 

jon0844

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Just so I am clear from reading the posts. This only links the lifts from the platforms. The foot circulation between say platform 2 & 4 remains the same?

So far it's just a lower tunnel with access to lifts. You go up steps at each end to reach the current higher tunnel/subway.
 

arb

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Who’s delay repay is worse?

I find the process as follows.

Spend ages inputting details.
Get annoyed with recaptca.
Get it rejected.
Appeal needing to enter exactly the same data as previously.
Get paid

GTR are hoping most will give up so the can pocket the money.

I find the online process so tedious that I've gone back to filling in paper forms collected from my local station, and find that much quicker! I've also never yet had a paper form rejected. It helps that my journey to work takes me past 1) a post box, and 2) my bank, for paying in the cheques (since they only offer BACS online), so obviously not for everybody.
 

OwenB

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I find the online process so tedious that I've gone back to filling in paper forms collected from my local station, and find that much quicker! I've also never yet had a paper form rejected. It helps that my journey to work takes me past 1) a post box, and 2) my bank, for paying in the cheques (since they only offer BACS online), so obviously not for everybody.
I think the online delay repay process would be a lot better if it saved the details of the season ticket, it's a pain having to complete the short ticket number, the long ticket number, the photocard number and the price each time.
 

Failed Unit

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I find the online process so tedious that I've gone back to filling in paper forms collected from my local station, and find that much quicker! I've also never yet had a paper form rejected. It helps that my journey to work takes me past 1) a post box, and 2) my bank, for paying in the cheques (since they only offer BACS online), so obviously not for everybody.

Do they pay for postage as well, maybe worth doing that if it costs them more. ;)

Got my payment for the May timetable farce yesterday. Surprised I didn’t need to fight as all I had were bank statements as evidence. Glad I got something in the end but boy was the process painful. (Considering they were at fault in the first place)
 
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