Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[387star]

Be interesting to see how those gwr 387s for heathrow express turn out maybe gatwick express can have a follow on refurb

 

[OwenB]

It’s a shame the whole train wasn’t done out like the first class, perhaps without the armrests. With a bit of separation to stop sound carrying through the train and a bit less plastic the interior wouldn’t have been too bad then. Having said that they’re still not wonderful for very long journeys, but adequate for something like Bedford to Brighton.

I agree - I find them a lot more comfortable when I aim for the declassified rear section. They don't take up much extra space in the carriage, so it's a bit baffling they went for the ironing boards in standard.

 

[MML]

I'm surprised how little snow clearance has taken place on platforms considering we now live in this elf and safety politically correct bubble.
One person with a shovel at Luton, but nothing at Luton Airport Parkway, Harpenden or St Albans.
Strange considering we are normally wading through piles of rock salt when there is the slightest hint of sub zero temperatures.

 

[crazystripe]

Do we know if May 2019's timetable changes are likely include any amendments to timings where the current setup simply allows minor delays to perpetuate, or is it simply the case that there isn’t the capacity on the network to really do anything about it? I’ll give an example from my evening commute (1754 Finsbury Park to Peterborough)…

If this service is even 2-3 minutes late out of the Core at St Pancras (which it almost always is, due to a delay coming towards London Bridge from Horsham) it will be held at platform 7 to allow the 1754 ex Kings Cross to Baldock to pass by on the down fast, meaning the Peterborough loses a further 2-3 minutes before it can leave. It then picks up further delays because it gets stuck behind the Baldock train that calls at Welwyn North and Knebworth, whereas the Peterborough train calls only at Stevenage.

If the Peterborough service is 5-6 minutes late out of the Core, then the 1801 ex Finsbury Park to Cambridge (stopper) will be brought into Finsbury Park platform 7 ahead of it, meaning that the departure of the 1754 is, by then, over 10 minutes late.

Either way, if you look at RTT, the 1754 has a terrible track record of on-time arrival at my home station in Bedfordshire, and I can only imagine the scenario above is replicated umpteen times across the evening peak for all sorts of destinations. Since Mon 21 January, the delay minutes on arrival at my home station have been: 2, 5, 5, 33, 8, 10, 11, 8, 11.

Granted, this isn’t the end of the world (and the 33 minute delay was a Hertford Loop diversion) but compared to a service that used to have an almost impeccable punctuality (i.e. 1742 or 1812 ex Kings Cross) the almost routine 5-10 minute delays are frustrating.

 

[bramling]

Do we know if May 2019's timetable changes are likely include any amendments to timings where the current setup simply allows minor delays to perpetuate, or is it simply the case that there isn’t the capacity on the network to really do anything about it? I’ll give an example from my evening commute (1754 Finsbury Park to Peterborough)…

If this service is even 2-3 minutes late out of the Core at St Pancras (which it almost always is, due to a delay coming towards London Bridge from Horsham) it will be held at platform 7 to allow the 1754 ex Kings Cross to Baldock to pass by on the down fast, meaning the Peterborough loses a further 2-3 minutes before it can leave. It then picks up further delays because it gets stuck behind the Baldock train that calls at Welwyn North and Knebworth, whereas the Peterborough train calls only at Stevenage.

If the Peterborough service is 5-6 minutes late out of the Core, then the 1801 ex Finsbury Park to Cambridge (stopper) will be brought into Finsbury Park platform 7 ahead of it, meaning that the departure of the 1754 is, by then, over 10 minutes late.

Either way, if you look at RTT, the 1754 has a terrible track record of on-time arrival at my home station in Bedfordshire, and I can only imagine the scenario above is replicated umpteen times across the evening peak for all sorts of destinations. Since Mon 21 January, the delay minutes on arrival at my home station have been: 2, 5, 5, 33, 8, 10, 11, 8, 11.

Granted, this isn’t the end of the world (and the 33 minute delay was a Hertford Loop diversion) but compared to a service that used to have an almost impeccable punctuality (i.e. 1742 or 1812 ex Kings Cross) the almost routine 5-10 minute delays are frustrating.

As far as I can tell the answer is no. Whilst there are some tweaks to timings, I haven’t spotted anything to really write home about. Indeed it’s hard to see how much can be done as the whole thing is very intricately balanced as it is. The clash you talk about is always going to happen when you have a service leaving King’s Cross which has a very high probability of being right time, and another coming from Horsham which has a much higher probability of having accrued a delay somewhere in its journey.

Things will get rather worse once further services go down the core, especially the stopping Cambridge service.

As an aside, one wonders how long before some kind of change of mind will happen over the Baldock services. These cause chaos reversing in the up platform when things are not perfectly to time. Ideally a proper reversing facility should have been built, for example a centre siding (no idea if there’s room for this), but if nothing is in the pipeline then I wouldn’t be surprised to see these services cut back to Letchworth at some point. From what I gather they’re not heavily used to Baldock in any case - their main market seems to be Hitchin (which at peak times can be busy enough to virtually fill these services).

 

[Failed Unit]

Back to my favourite topic. GTRs demands that they must skip stops.

Today the 0654 Peterborough- Horsham service was late. Control of implementing its only service recovery plan - decided to skip stops between East Croydon and Gatwick Airport.

Left East Croydon 22 late
Arrive Gatwick 22 late.

Please GTR apologists what benefits did missing 4 stations give?

I see examples of this every day but GTR still use skipping stops as first preference for even the smallest delay. If it clearly doesn’t save time in many cases why do the continue annoying passengers by doing it?

 

[Steve Harris]

I'm surprised how little snow clearance has taken place on platforms considering we now live in this elf and safety politically correct bubble.
One person with a shovel at Luton, but nothing at Luton Airport Parkway, Harpenden or St Albans.
Strange considering we are normally wading through piles of rock salt when there is the slightest hint of sub zero temperatures.

I'm not surprised at all to be honest.

It was once explained to me if a shop keeper cleared his car park of snow and someone slipped over and hurt themselves he could be found liable for causing the accident. Where as if he just left it, the accident is declared a act of god and not the shop keepers fault.

 

[SteveOfTheStow]

Back to my favourite topic. GTRs demands that they must skip stops.

Today the 0654 Peterborough- Horsham service was late. Control of implementing its only service recovery plan - decided to skip stops between East Croydon and Gatwick Airport.

Left East Croydon 22 late
Arrive Gatwick 22 late.

Please GTR apologists what benefits did missing 4 stations give?

I see examples of this every day but GTR still use skipping stops as first preference for even the smallest delay. If it clearly doesn’t save time in many cases why do the continue annoying passengers by doing it?

Have you complained to GTR? Have you contacted your MP (given GTR is basically executing the DfT's will)? It needs enough people to put pressure on their MPs to get the Transport Select Committee to moan at Grayling again. That's the only hope of getting this to change before the next franchise. It feels good to rant on here, and it spreads the word about the crap situation, but it won't fix it.

 

[Failed Unit]

Have you complained to GTR? Have you contacted your MP (given GTR is basically executing the DfT's will)? It needs enough people to put pressure on their MPs to get the Transport Select Committee to moan at Grayling again. That's the only hope of getting this to change before the next franchise. It feels good to rant on here, and it spreads the word about the crap situation, but it won't fix it.

Dft are telling GTR to run trains empty and leave passengers on platforms?

But yes. My MP is one of the ones wanting the contract terminated with immediate effect.

The commons select committee heavily criticised GTR.

We are powerless unfortunately as GTR can do as they like without sanctions. (They did get a pocket money fine for their part in the summer shambles. Not large enough to encourage them to work better. )

 

[jon0844]

Our MP wants more trains calling at Brookmans Park and that's about it. He thinks TfL taking over would do that.

Besides claiming he's got Oyster up here (which he didn't, but it IS coming in the autumn as part of an expansion on many routes) I don't think he's that bothered about anyone that doesn't use the GN inners and live in Brookmans Park.

 

[Failed Unit]

Our MP wants more trains calling at Brookmans Park and that's about it. He thinks TfL taking over would do that.

Besides claiming he's got Oyster up here (which he didn't, but it IS coming in the autumn as part of an expansion on many routes) I don't think he's that bothered about anyone that doesn't use the GN inners and live in Brookmans Park.

I think he was asleep on the job during the “consultation” as he didn’t make much noise about the service reduction then. Hadley wood managed to fight it.

Ironically the inners perform better than the outers generally.

I use consultation loosely as it wasn’t a consultation. GTR has no intention of changing anything it was a box ticking exercise. Which is strangely how the commons select committee reported passengers feelings on it as well.

 

[jon0844]

I think GTR will seek to restore all stations on GN inners once the 717s have properly bedded in, but I must confess to quite liking the ability to jump on a train at Hatfield and the first stop being Potters Bar, where I can jump off and grab some food/shopping and then return for the fast train to London.

Of course, Hatfield not getting some of the services is a bigger problem and catches a lot of people out.

Ultimately, when the timetable has bedded in and GTR and Network Rail can look to optimise the timetable to fix all the obvious conflicts, we may solve all this.

Clearly the 'one bitten, twice shy' approach will now mean any subsequent timetable tweaks are going to take bloody ages for everyone.

 

[leytongabriel]

All this is a bit like what the RER D going through Paris and sharing a crowded central tunnel with the RER B used to be like. I believe after various tweaks and bits of signalling work the SNCf finally accepted that it was all too complicated and vulnerable to delays and has simplified the service patterns.

 

[bramling]

I think GTR will seek to restore all stations on GN inners once the 717s have properly bedded in, but I must confess to quite liking the ability to jump on a train at Hatfield and the first stop being Potters Bar, where I can jump off and grab some food/shopping and then return for the fast train to London.

Of course, Hatfield not getting some of the services is a bigger problem and catches a lot of people out.

Ultimately, when the timetable has bedded in and GTR and Network Rail can look to optimise the timetable to fix all the obvious conflicts, we may solve all this.

Clearly the 'one bitten, twice shy' approach will now mean any subsequent timetable tweaks are going to take bloody ages for everyone.

I don’t think it will be possible to go back to all stations unless something else gives, for example running the 2Cxx services on the fast lines between Finsbury and Potters Bar. The current pattern gives some breathing space such that it’s not currently the end of the world if the Cambridge service gets stuck behind 313s between London and Welwyn. This will all become much more of an issue when the Cambridge services run to/from the core.

Sorting out the peak-time oddities is more of an issue, and no doubt that will happen in due course once the 313s are gone.

In any case does Brookmans Park *really* need 4tph? Apart from the preserve the vanity of a politician?!

 

[jon0844]

I am not sure anyone needs 4tph but consistency helps passengers and saves the need to stand reading the stopping pattern on the platform to see if you can take the train or not. If the underground did this regularly it would cause chaos.

The 2Cnn trains do use the fast lines occasionally but not often enough. The signaller can often run them on the fast to use platform 2 at Hatfield and then fast to WGC before pulling over, but doesn't despite it not blocking anything else.

It seems that as it's known the trains northbound will invariably leave after a 3 or 4 minute wait at WGC and then sit at Digswell to use the viaduct there appears to be no problem just running it late. Ironically, with all the padding, it probably does recover quite well without the need to skip stop.

But that's only becuase every journey is essentially delayed!

 

[Ianno87]

The paths of the 2Cxx services look like on the Down at least, they'd clash with the xx00/30 LNER King's Cross departures, and also the preceding xx57/27 Open Access paths in the hours that they run.

Their paths on the Down are shifted round the cloockface by about 10 minutes compared to pre-May 2018.

So I suspect Slow Line running is here to stay with them.

 

[jon0844]

The 2Cxx services wait for what I believe is a 1Txx service before moving out to the down fast.

I am not sure if the padding earlier on was reduced if it would enable it to get through Welwyn North before something else caught up?

At WGC, the train almost always goes out on a yellow even though it has waited up to 5 minutes to be dispatched. Only to crawl forward and stop again potentially for a few more minutes.

 

[bramling]

The 2Cxx services wait for what I believe is a 1Txx service before moving out to the down fast.

I am not sure if the padding earlier on was reduced if it would enable it to get through Welwyn North before something else caught up?

At WGC, the train almost always goes out on a yellow even though it has waited up to 5 minutes to be dispatched. Only to crawl forward and stop again potentially for a few more minutes.

That padding will likely become vital when the services start being delayed south of the river - as chaos will be caused on the Cambridge branch if these services present themselves late. Of course there's no guarantee the padding will resolve things, as if the train arrives late onto the GN there's a high chance of being stuck behind a 313/717 service if not diverted via the fast line. This is where the Welwyn services non-stopping certain stations actually proves rather useful from a performance point of view, even if it annoys Grant Shapps!

On a related note, it's interesting to observe how the Cambridge/Brighton service has found itself taking on more of an all-stations role on the Cambridge branch. From originally being proposed to call at Letchworth and Royston only, both hourly services will now be calling at Baldock, and the second hourly service will now additionally be calling at Ashwell, along with Ashwell gaining some other calls too. From a performance point of view they might as well add the three halts to one or other of the services, and turn one of the 2Cxx services at Letchworth to give it a layover.

 

[317 forever]

This might be a lot to hope for. It's just that I hope to catch a direct train from London Bridge to Finsbury Park on the August Bank Holiday.

 

[Ianno87]

That padding will likely become vital when the services start being delayed south of the river - as chaos will be caused on the Cambridge branch if these services present themselves late. Of course there's no guarantee the padding will resolve things, as if the train arrives late onto the GN there's a high chance of being stuck behind a 313/717 service if not diverted via the fast line. This is where the Welwyn services non-stopping certain stations actually proves rather useful from a performance point of view, even if it annoys Grant Shapps!

On a related note, it's interesting to observe how the Cambridge/Brighton service has found itself taking on more of an all-stations role on the Cambridge branch. From originally being proposed to call at Letchworth and Royston only, both hourly services will now be calling at Baldock, and the second hourly service will now additionally be calling at Ashwell, along with Ashwell gaining some other calls too. From a performance point of view they might as well add the three halts to one or other of the services, and turn one of the 2Cxx services at Letchworth to give it a layover.

Can't add too many stops to the ex-Brightons - its turnround time at Cambridge (which is just about right to recover a late inward run) will disappear! Plus 12-cars and level crossings etc...

 

[bramling]

Can't add too many stops to the ex-Brightons - its turnround time at Cambridge (which is just about right to recover a late inward run) will disappear! Plus 12-cars and level crossings etc...

Ah yes I forgot about the level crossings - to stop the 12-cars at Shepreth and Foxton would presumably mean having to further extend the platforms already done.

 

[bramling]

So a new week and before dawn has even broken four ThamesLink/ cancellations showing on the GN side, listed as being due to lack of train crew, all affecting services on the Cambridge branch.

 

[OwenB]

So a new week and before dawn has even broken four ThamesLink/ cancellations showing on the GN side, listed as being due to lack of train crew, all affecting services on the Cambridge branch.

Random Horsham trains stopping at Hatfield. Odd.

 

[jon0844]

So a new week and before dawn has even broken four ThamesLink/ cancellations showing on the GN side, listed as being due to lack of train crew, all affecting services on the Cambridge branch.

Driver shortage meant two Horsham trains did extra stops at Hatfield, Potters Bar and Alexandra Palace. I bet it was another driver let down by a taxi, as happened yesterday. If so, they need to sort things out with whatever firm gets the taxi bookings.

 

[bramling]

Driver shortage meant two Horsham trains did extra stops at Hatfield, Potters Bar and Alexandra Palace. I bet it was another driver let down by a taxi, as happened yesterday. If so, they need to sort things out with whatever firm gets the taxi bookings.

All I can say is a decade ago cancellation of a morning peak up service would have been sufficiently noteworthy to make the local paper...

Being generous at least they have made some effort at making alternative arrangements, but flip side of the coin is those on the amended services get a delayed
journey.

My better half tried using a core service last Friday, only the second time since May. Train 25 late arriving at St Pancras, then turfed off at Finsbury Park when the service was amended to become a FreshAirLink/ express non-stop to Peterborough. Great introductory experience!

 

[Failed Unit]

Driver shortage meant two Horsham trains did extra stops at Hatfield, Potters Bar and Alexandra Palace. I bet it was another driver let down by a taxi, as happened yesterday. If so, they need to sort things out with whatever firm gets the taxi bookings.

Wonder why Alexander Palace considering only Moorgate services stop there normally.

How interesting you go for a speculative reason to defend GTR - could not possibly by because they can’t get enough drivers to volunteer. A lot of trains cancelled this morning to be down to taxi. To be fair to GTR well in advance which would to me suggest they knew last night they were short of drivers.

On the bad side. The 0732 and 0802 services from WGC are both showing as running. We will see but considering both inbound trains are not I doubt it.

 

[bramling]

Wonder why Alexander Palace considering only Moorgate services stop there normally.

Just a wild punt, but being early morning one possibility is there could have been an LNER driver on their way to Bounds Green. Certainly a few of the early services are used by LNER crews on their way to work, although from my unscientific observations this is perhaps more from the Peterborough route than the Cambridge route. Could be totally up the wrong tree with this idea though.

 

[jon0844]

Yesterday was down to a taxi not turning up. It has happened before. If you don't believe it, fine, but don't suggest I'm lying. I didn't say what the reason was today because I don't know, but that has been a problem on many occasions. I am sure it will again.

It obviously isn't good enough to have hundreds of people impacted becuase it all comes down to a private taxi firm not showing up when booked.

 

[bramling]

Yesterday was down to a taxi not turning up. It has happened before. If you don't believe it, fine, but don't suggest I'm lying. I didn't say what the reason was today because I don't know, but that has been a problem on many occasions.

It obviously isn't good enough to have hundreds of people impacted becuase it all comes down to a private taxi firm not showing up when booked.

I do think that part (and only part) of GTR’s issue on GN is that they seem to have a disproportionately high amount of staff travelling around pass, particularly to/from Hitchin, Welwyn GC and Finsbury Park. Some services can have 5-10 on.

I know there will always be people on their way to/from work, travelling pass as part of their diagram, or travelling to a depot to bring a train into service or vice versa, however since May this all seems to have exploded. Is this down to the various crew depot changes? It can’t be good for resilience.

 

[Failed Unit]

Yesterday was down to a taxi not turning up. It has happened before. If you don't believe it, fine, but don't suggest I'm lying. I didn't say what the reason was today because I don't know, but that has been a problem on many occasions. I am sure it will again.

It obviously isn't good enough to have hundreds of people impacted becuase it all comes down to a private taxi firm not showing up when booked.

I am not saying you are lying. All I am saying is you are straight into GTR apologist mode. “It cant possibly be GTRs fault”. That is the only reason I called you out. Neither of us know but your first reaction is you must deflect GTRs incompetence. Why not say this is network rails fault for not approving the May 2018 timetable before T-12? GTR would.

Even if it is the taxi not turning up. As you said yourself it has happened before it is GTR who arranges these contracts. Therefore the failure to deliver the service is down to GTR. They should select more reliable subcontractors as it didn’t happen as much 12 months ago did it?

Do you blame Siemens everytime a 700 fails (as it isn’t GTRs fault the train is still performing below expectations they didn’t order it). No I don’t either. GTR should get me from A-B and if their subcontractors fail they should take accountability. Just like i do, if I am late to work I get told to get an earlier train. Which I do. I now need to leave 30 minutes earlier than pre-May to stand a chance of arriving on-time. Which is an improvement on an hour post timetable change. GTRs fault on national news, but my employer takes the view I need to manage my incompetent supplier. Leave early.

Actually it is also possible all the cancellations are down to failed 700s. It has happened in the past. We will never know.