Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[sefton]

Thing is, GTR only have one customer, the DFT.

I am sure the contract with the DfT doesn't read "please make every effort to run your trains on time, even if it means not bothering to stop to carry anyone who has paid for a ticket", but then they have done more ridiculous things such as specifying the appalling 700s.

 

[bramling]

The train was brought back to time. The controller, or whoever gave the instruction to skip stops made a decision and recovered the service. Considering that is the role of the controllers I would be supporting that member of staff. You wouldn't be firing them because they did their job correctly. Countless services across the entire network are recovered in such a way. If you pulled the member of staff in for any form of disciplinary you would find yourself in very deep water.

Not sure about disciplinary action, however there might certainly be scope for some gentle performance management - needlessly pulling stops out of a service.

However the culture seems to run a bit deeper than one on-the-day misjudgement by a controller. Clearly the GTR management endorse the practice, otherwise it wouldn't be happening. Likewise one has to ask whether the current service is viable given it is clearly so fragile.

 

[ComUtoR]

I doubt that. Making incompetent decisions which strand your employer's customers for an hour without a good reason is a pretty good reason for dismissal.

Sorry, but in this case you are wrong. The decision was not incompetent and is one that is required as part of their role.

Really! You want to defend GTR stranding their customers for an hour for a train that was 9 minutes late.

Defend GTR; not specifically. Skip stopping, like it or not, works to recover the service. The train was late and that is the only information that has been presented. However, there may have been a specific reason why it was run fast. It would be wrong of me to assume anything about what those reasons were.

 

[bramling]

The people in control have the bigger picture to those of us on the ground. There may have been other reasons why they needed that unit out the way. Just because you didn't see the reasons why doesn't mean they don't exist.

Without having looked at it in more detail, a better option would normally be to run the train fast from Hitchin to St Pancras, or at worst from Arlesey to St Pancras. This wouldn't cause nearly so much inconvenience.

 

[Steve Harris]

I am sure the contract with the DfT doesn't read "please make every effort to run your trains on time, even if it means not bothering to stop to carry anyone who has paid for a ticket", but then they have done more ridiculous things such as specifying the appalling 700s.

No.

But.

Is the DfT going to complain like you or I would ?? ( Bearing in mind the DfT need a company to run train services for them ).

And there lies the rub !

As i posted earlier, would things be different if their revenue was coming from traditional customers ?

 

[ComUtoR]

Not sure about disciplinary action, however there might certainly be scope for some gentle performance management - needlessly pulling stops out of a service.

Why ? Nobody knows the reason why the stops were skipped other than those who gave it a not to stop. Its quite disgraceful to instantly suggest incompetence purely based on mis-placed vitriol against GTR. The Controller could have been instructed by their Manager to skip the stops. Without knowing the facts you can't really say if the decision was right or wrong.

Clearly the GTR management endorse the practice, otherwise it wouldn't be happening.

Skip stopping is network wide, to suggest or imply this is GTR only or something they specifically endorse is disingenuous.

 

[ComUtoR]

Without having looked at it in more detail,

Kinda the point really isn't it. What is the rest of the detail ?

a better option would normally be to run the train fast from Hitchin to St Pancras, or at worst from Arlesey to St Pancras. This wouldn't cause nearly so much inconvenience.

Maybe there was a failed train in the way or problem at a station or points failure or a unit behind that needed the path or the Driver needed to be on time, or god knows what else.

I don't know, neither does anyone else.

 

[bramling]

Why ? Nobody knows the reason why the stops were skipped other than those who gave it a not to stop. Its quite disgraceful to instantly suggest incompetence purely based on mis-placed vitriol against GTR. The Controller could have been instructed by their Manager to skip the stops. Without knowing the facts you can't really say if the decision was right or wrong.

Agreed we can't be sure. However outwardly it really doesn't look like it was a good judgement call at all.

The train was on time by Sandy, so missing Biggleswade and Arlesey seems completely pointless. Meanwhile, having the train arrive early at Hitchin seems to have caused a problem for the signallers, as if they left it on the up fast then it would have delayed 1A48 1845 Leeds to Kings Cross, but by standing it in the platform it put a delay onto 1T59 1947 Ely to Kings Cross, which due to reactionary delays ended up adding up to 15 minutes by King's Cross.

Skip stopping is network wide, to suggest or imply this is GTR only or something they specifically endorse is disingenuous.

It was virtually unheard of in WAGN/FCC days on the GN route. It's only become legion since the May timetable. I've seen a few pretty misguided skip stopping decisions on Southeastern too [*], so perhaps it's a Govia thing?!

Alternatively, perhaps it's a desperation to have things right-time through the Thameslink core? Clearly the passengers are just an unnecessary inconvenience!

* Charing X to Ramsgate service lost something like 10 minutes between London and Ashford. After leaving Ashford it was announced that it would omit Sturry and Minster. Then promptly got stuck behind something off the Deal line, so ended up sitting at signals for ages, and arriving at Ramsgate even later than originally. If I'd been trying to get to Sturry or Minster (hourly service) I'd have been *extremely* pissed off. At Ramsgate the driver and guard could both be heard commenting to one another that they "couldn't see the point of that" and "control don't seem to know what they're doing".

 

[bramling]

Maybe there was a failed train in the way or problem at a station or points failure or a unit behind that needed the path or the Driver needed to be on time, or god knows what else.

Or perhaps there was a UFO blocking the line? Or maybe it was the fairies escaped from the bottom of my garden?!

The more I'm looking at other trains in the area, the more it's looking like a bad decision.

Apart from the timetable issues, it also points to controllers who don't seem to know the route well enough to be able to judge what needs to be done, and more important what doesn't need to be done, to recover a given delay amount. Aren't they based at Three Bridges now? That could explain a lot.

 

[The Box Photter]

Then you would be the subject of an employment tribunal and out of a job.

The people in control have the bigger picture to those of us on the ground. There may have been other reasons why they needed that unit out the way. Just because you didn't see the reasons why doesn't mean they don't exist.

There's no bigger picture than providing the timetabled service to the paying passengers and prioritising services for the greatest passenger loadings. That means getting the trains to run on time in the first place and after that having appropriate recovery measures which inconvenience the fewest paying passengers. I'm concerned that the "people in control" have KPIs centered around reducing delay minutes and recovery of the service at turnaround points. This will naturally lead to obsession with "getting the train to it's terminus so it can come back in the opposite direction". This is fundamentally flawed, because it takes no account of the hundreds (perhaps thousands) of passengers relying on the delayed service to get them to intermediate calling points and fixates on the relatively few people coming back into London at the tail end of the peak.

Think about it, at Thameslink service heading north from London terminating at Peterborough/Cambridge/Bedford at 1800hrs takes about 1 hr 10 mins to run from Blackfriars to Bedford. So it won't be heading back into London until after 1910hrs at the earliest and most likely has a 20 minute turnaround at Bedford. So it's likely to be forming a 1930hrs (or later) service towards London. Trust me, that train will be leaving Bedford with a handful of passengers and won't start to pick up greater numbers until it's south of Luton, which is more than half an hour from Bedford. By my estimate, that's getting on for 2000hrs. That isn't a peak commuting time, or a peak journey time for most people.

I suspect the same metrics apply to the other northern termini for Thameslink, who, in their infinite wisdom, are happy to run trains northbound during the evening peaks NON STOP from St Pancras to Bedford or non-calling at Leagrave, Harlington and Flitwick, often with the calling pattern being further amended en route. Last Monday evening the 1727 Blackfriars to Bedford, which is usually fast to St Albans then Harpenden, Luton, Flitwick & Bedford, ran non-stop from St Pancras to Bedford because it was EIGHT minutes late at Blackfriars. This is usually a busy train, but I suspect ran largely empty from St Pancras as most passengers had to cram onto the following 1742 (express) and 1747. Both these trains were delayed because of the extra passengers trying to board at Farringdon and St Pancras.

So, by running their train set at 1:1 scale, Thameslink possibly got the delayed train to Bedford closer to time, mostly empty and at the inconvenience of three trainloads of passengers.

And for the benefit of "ComUtor", the delay on the 1727 was because of slippery rail conditions, i.e. NR doesn't cut trees back anymore to save the "fwuffy skwiwwells". It wasn't due to a failed train (TOC incompetent maintenance regime) or a UFO on the line "Damn you Vader!".

 

[ChiefPlanner]

There's no bigger picture than providing the timetabled service to the paying passengers and prioritising services for the greatest passenger loadings. That means getting the trains to run on time in the first place and after that having appropriate recovery measures which inconvenience the fewest paying passengers. I'm concerned that the "people in control" have KPIs centered around reducing delay minutes and recovery of the service at turnaround points. This will naturally lead to obsession with "getting the train to it's terminus so it can come back in the opposite direction". This is fundamentally flawed, because it takes no account of the hundreds (perhaps thousands) of passengers relying on the delayed service to get them to intermediate calling points and fixates on the relatively few people coming back into London at the tail end of the peak.

Think about it, at Thameslink service heading north from London terminating at Peterborough/Cambridge/Bedford at 1800hrs takes about 1 hr 10 mins to run from Blackfriars to Bedford. So it won't be heading back into London until after 1910hrs at the earliest and most likely has a 20 minute turnaround at Bedford. So it's likely to be forming a 1930hrs (or later) service towards London. Trust me, that train will be leaving Bedford with a handful of passengers and won't start to pick up greater numbers until it's south of Luton, which is more than half an hour from Bedford. By my estimate, that's getting on for 2000hrs. That isn't a peak commuting time, or a peak journey time for most people.

I suspect the same metrics apply to the other northern termini for Thameslink, who, in their infinite wisdom, are happy to run trains northbound during the evening peaks NON STOP from St Pancras to Bedford or non-calling at Leagrave, Harlington and Flitwick, often with the calling pattern being further amended en route. Last Monday evening the 1727 Blackfriars to Bedford, which is usually fast to St Albans then Harpenden, Luton, Flitwick & Bedford, ran non-stop from St Pancras to Bedford because it was EIGHT minutes late at Blackfriars. This is usually a busy train, but I suspect ran largely empty from St Pancras as most passengers had to cram onto the following 1742 (express) and 1747. Both these trains were delayed because of the extra passengers trying to board at Farringdon and St Pancras.

So, by running their train set at 1:1 scale, Thameslink possibly got the delayed train to Bedford closer to time, mostly empty and at the inconvenience of three trainloads of passengers.

And for the benefit of "ComUtor", the delay on the 1727 was because of slippery rail conditions, i.e. NR doesn't cut trees back anymore to save the "fwuffy skwiwwells". It wasn't due to a failed train (TOC incompetent maintenance regime) or a UFO on the line "Damn you Vader!".

I agree - and am ex industry - (happily retired) , but I get so annoyed with random "service recovery" - almost get the driver home and forget the passengers - on Thursday to quote a simple one - xx43 cape off St Albans (off) peak , but runs through ECS , meanwhile another ECS comes out of the turnback , so we get the next stopper ( a good number of passsengers on it) - to be overtaken by another ECS southbound. So it put about 40 mins into my journey.

Yesterday had the edifying sight of northbound ECS trains , passing southbound ECS trains.

If you are in dire straits , and let us forget , please performance minutes , let us concentrate on trying to move people. (Subject to urgent crew needs of course) , in my time as "Head of Operations" we did not bother with such nonsense.........

 

[MML]

And when things do go wrong from time to time, I find it surprising the extent to which the service falls apart and takes time to recover. The signalling failure in the St Albans area on Friday lunchtime. Evening services were severely impacted.
At least 2 x 700s were dumped in the siding at Gatwick, another terminating service which was due to return north was cancelled in front of a platform full of passengers who had already been moved from 2 previously cancelled services and the unit left empty presumably for Three Bridges, while no fewer than 10 x 700s were stabled in Cricklewood.
Meanwhile my train formed of a 12-car 700/1 departed full and standing from City Thameslink calling all stations to Bedford, picking up greater delay at each station stop, because the driver could not close the doors or safely dispatch from the platform as a result of so many people trying to get on.

Now I can understand the signalling event, which with the best will in the world can always happen.
I can understand the line blockage until it was fixed.
I can understand stock being delayed and out of place.
I can even understand some drivers going out of hours.
But I can't understand how the units and traincrew could not be better adjusted to recover the situation. It looked like the majority of drivers had gone out of hours, stock had been abandoned and no replacement drivers were available to rectify the situation.
A Brighton service was cancelled and what looked like a good recovery plan was implemented. The Thameslink service was instead scheduled to start from Three Bridges (with passengers from Brighton adequately served by GATex and Southern services), but once the service was due to leave it was delayed and then cancelled due to lack of staff. Yet Three Bridges is the depot, where one would have thought a driver would have been available to take it north.
Similarly, if you have insufficient drivers to take a train as far as Sutton or Rainham, or are unable to run through the core for whatever reason, wouldn't it be better to adopt an all stations shuttle service along the MML and reverse in platform 3 at Kentish Town, which would at least give commuters the opportunity to connect with London Underground at West Hampstead and Kentish Town.

Instead the whole Thameslink network from Bedford to Brighton and all stations in between is paralyzed for hours on end.

 

[bionic]

But what is GTRs role to move passengers from A - B or to move trains from A - B. Since May I think it is the latter rather than the former.

GTR's role is to make as much profit as possible for their shareholders. And they've been making money hand over fist throughout all of this, so as far as GTR and their shareholders are concerned, they are doing very well. There is zero incentive for GTR to run a decent service for their passengers because they get paid anyway. A lot of people seem shocked that they don't care about passengers... why should they? However badly they treat their passengers they still get paid.

A lot of people on here seem to confuse profit-driven private companies and public services as the same thing. If you've got an issue with the service, don't blame GTR because they are a successful company doing exactly what they set out to do (making a handsome profit), but blame the system which allows them to do it.

 

[Failed Unit]

GTR's role is to make as much profit as possible for their shareholders. And they've been making money hand over fist throughout all of this, so as far as GTR and their shareholders are concerned, they are doing very well. There is zero incentive for GTR to run a decent service for their passengers because they get paid anyway. A lot of people seem shocked that they don't care about passengers... why should they? However badly they treat their passengers they still get paid.

A lot of people on here seem to confuse profit-driven private companies and public services as the same thing. If you've got an issue with the service, don't blame GTR because they are a successful company doing exactly what they set out to do (making a handsome profit), but blame the system which allows them to do it.

Sadly that is the truth. The problem with the management contract is customer satisfaction is not rated. GTR clearly don’t get a big enough penalty of skip stopping otherwise it would not be the default response for even the smallest of delays.

Customer satisfaction is not measure and incentivised.

Finally let’s look at the May timetable. As they are not take a share of the revenue- they don’t care if the fare box drops because the have reduced the frequency of the service. Service unusable on great northern at weekends? We don’t care we get paid the same and you (the fare and taxpayers) take the hit.

So yes I do blame the system as well for not having a mechanism to control GTR and let them run such a poor operation.

Hopefully GTR will follow national express from not getting any future franchises as they may have ticked the boxes. But their methods of doing so have not promoted the kind of public transport system even the DFT had in mind. Perhaps if they did know who poorly GTR would operate in terms of customer service they would have put more KPIs in place to prevent it.

Yes skip stopping is network wide. But some operators do it more than others. That is measured as last year before the timetable disaster GTR were to operation for skip stopping the most. The bottom ones were / regional and IC operations so you can argue about apples / pears comparisons. I know ScotRail also has big battles about how often the skip stops. Doing it with a train 10 mins behind can sort of see the logic. However when the next train is 50 mins behind i do struggle. (As often happens now)

 

[ComUtoR]

Customer satisfaction is not measure and incentivised.

https://www.transportfocus.org.uk/r...earch/national-passenger-survey-introduction/

We consult more than 50,000 passengers a year to produce the National Rail Passenger Survey (NRPS) – a network-wide picture of passengers’ satisfaction with rail travel. Passenger opinions of train services are collected twice a year from a representative sample of journeys.

Passengers’ overall satisfaction and satisfaction with 30 specific aspects of service can, therefore, be compared over time

 

[Failed Unit]

https://www.transportfocus.org.uk/r...earch/national-passenger-survey-introduction/

But I know GTRs (Thameslink and Great Northern) is on the way down. My point is they have no incentive to arrest the decline. Just as they have no incentive to provide a usable service at the weekend or we wouldn’t still have a service worse than we did pre-may.

 

[ComUtoR]

But I know GTRs (Thameslink and Great Northern) is on the way down.

Their overall satisfaction score increased.

 

[Failed Unit]

Their overall satisfaction score increased.

Not on great northern it didn’t. Great Northern is at its lowest ever. The last survey was done before the total failure to introduce a timetable. The ORR comments specifically about this (on the Thameslink notes) saying it expects satisfaction to dive next time as the industry scores a major own goal. Southern still continues to prop up GTR, but it isn’t the only part of the franchise. Remember southern is improving from their industrial relations problems, so improving but still poor compared to the rest of the industry. I digress.

But keeping it on topic. When the first survey is published since the fiasco I will be amazed if Thameslink/ Great Northern get above 50% considering today.

1. The weekday timetable still is worse than the one it replaced.
2. Cancellations / Skip stopping still too high.
3. No useable weekend service.
4. No date when the timetable we were promised will be delivered.
5. The reliability of the class 700s is not where it should be.
6. Most people impacted are not getting any form of compensation.

In one respect they are lucky the survey was done so far after May but people have not forgotten.

Going forward we will see another dip in performance while the 717s get introduced and the gremlins get ironed out.

 

[OwenB]

Not on great northern it didn’t. Great Northern is at its lowest ever. The last survey was done before the total failure to introduce a timetable. The ORR comments specifically about this (on the Thameslink notes) saying it expects satisfaction to dive next time as the industry scores a major own goal. Southern still continues to prop up GTR, but it isn’t the only part of the franchise. Remember southern is improving from their industrial relations problems, so improving but still poor compared to the rest of the industry. I digress.

But keeping it on topic. When the first survey is published since the fiasco I will be amazed if Thameslink/ Great Northern get above 50% considering today.

1. The weekday timetable still is worse than the one it replaced.
2. Cancellations / Skip stopping still too high.
3. No useable weekend service.
4. No date when the timetable we were promised will be delivered.
5. The reliability of the class 700s is not where it should be.
6. Most people impacted are not getting any form of compensation.

In one respect they are lucky the survey was done so far after May but people have not forgotten.

Going forward we will see another dip in performance while the 717s get introduced and the gremlins get ironed out.

Great post. I especially agree with points 3 and 4. I'd say that the peak Monday-Friday timetable itself (if it ran to plan, removing cancellations, etc.) is roughly comparable for me commuting from Hatfield.

I stopped using the service on Saturday to get to Stevenage, as the service has been halved to 1tph. One cancellation means a two hour gap.

I looked at the late night timetable KGX-HAT, as we have our works do on Thursday, love the random hour gap at one point at around 10pm. Joke.

I don't know who's actually to blame, DfT or GTR (probably a combination, thus abdicating any responsibility), but the interior of the 700s has to have been a joke. They might as well have put wooden benches in.

The sad truth is that no one is on the side of the commuter, as we have barely any alternatives to using the trains, unless we quit our jobs. And if you want to travel off peak, it's abysmal.

 

[bramling]

Their overall satisfaction score increased.

There is absolutely no way in a billion years that the satisfaction score for Great Northern will have increased this side of May. Apart from the previous issue of crewing-related weekend cancellations, the quality of service nosedived overnight in May, and hasn’t recovered even if it has lifted a bit from the absolute rock-bottom reached in June.

 

[Failed Unit]

There is absolutely no way in a billion years that the satisfaction score for Great Northern will have increased this side of May. Apart from the previous issue of crewing-related weekend cancellations, the quality of service nosedived overnight in May, and hasn’t recovered even if it has lifted a bit from the absolute rock-bottom reached in June.

Look today. 14% cancelled so so.

5% over GTR and 4% nationally.

Typical Sunday (for probably the last 2 years)

The next survey will be out soon. But when you look at the league table from the last one. guess who operates the franchises in the bottom 5 places. (GoVia) SouthEastern prevented the GTR from getting the clean sweap.

I think only Hull Trains is likely to keep Govia from taking all the bottom spaces again.

They simply don’t have any incentive to run the full timetable sadly.

 

[tsr]

GTR do have performance measurements and targets for customer satisfaction (and funnily enough also staff satisfaction). Some of these bear financial penalties. There are also auditing procedures to measure the effectiveness of passenger information, train/station facilities and so on, which again have penalties applied if necessary.

A lot of this is surprisingly detailed, very objective and involves a noticeable quantity of staff.

I’m not convinced that company financial penalties alone are sufficient to change things, indeed it seems to have little or no bearing on personal or team performance improvement amongst staff (nor am I confident that many of the continuous improvement drives have actually had any bearing on creating actionable policies), but it happens nonetheless.

 

[Bikeman78]

Only 9 minutes? That is incredibly poor to justify skip stopping.

Just before the 317s finished I was on the 10:16 Peterborough to King's Cross. It was about 25 late so they announced it as non stop to King's Cross! In the event it was already early by Welwyn North so it stopped as normal from Welwyn Garden City.

 

[Bikeman78]

I’d say passenger numbers are falling. The train I get home has got progressively emptier since May - even on days when the preceding one or even two services are cancelled. It’s now rare to have more than two or three others in the carriage. The usual exodus of cars and taxis at my station following a train arrival now seems to be diminishing. Perhaps more people are taking the KX-Cambridge stopping service as it tends to be more reliable - for now - thanks to its very generous half-hour turnaround at King’s Cross.

The people who designed and implemented this fiasco should be removed from the industry and never allowed back.

A week ago on Friday I travelled from Crawley to Stevenage, did a pair of 313s to Finsbury Park and then back to Crawley, changing at East Croydon onto a Southern train. What struck me is how deserted the Horsham to Peterborough trains are. By contrast, the Southern eight car train was full. The unreliability of Thameslink has quite clearly killed off the leisure travel market.

 

[Failed Unit]

A week ago on Friday I travelled from Crawley to Stevenage, did a pair of 313s to Finsbury Park and then back to Crawley, changing at East Croydon onto a Southern train. What struck me is how deserted the Horsham to Peterborough trains are. By contrast, the Southern eight car train was full. The unreliability of Thameslink has quite clearly killed off the leisure travel market.

The last time I was trying to find out if the full timetable would ever be introduced at a meet the manager session they said the same thing. Where passengers have a choice they pick Southern. So making a journey like Brighton - Gatwick Airport the southern service is full, the Thameslink is empty. Passengers actively avoid Thameslink where an alternative exists because it is so unreliable.

They didn’t give a date when the full timetable would be introduced. Not this side of Christmas but they hope loading would even out.

 

[Bikeman78]

Kinda the point really isn't it. What is the rest of the detail ?



Maybe there was a failed train in the way or problem at a station or points failure or a unit behind that needed the path or the Driver needed to be on time, or god knows what else.

I don't know, neither does anyone else.

A failed train would not require it to skip all stations from Peterborough to Hitchin, there are various cross overs between the fast and slow lines. It was already back on time at Sandy so difficult to justify running fast from there, especially given that the following train was cancelled.

 

[JonathanH]

A week ago on Friday I travelled from Crawley to Stevenage, did a pair of 313s to Finsbury Park and then back to Crawley, changing at East Croydon onto a Southern train. What struck me is how deserted the Horsham to Peterborough trains are. By contrast, the Southern eight car train was full. The unreliability of Thameslink has quite clearly killed off the leisure travel market.

I don't think that is what you saw, the fact is that passengers on the South Central division think primarily of Victoria as their destination when planning a leisure journey unless they are going somewhere in east London. Moreover, the Southern train gets to London quicker from Crawley (as it doesn't go via Redhill) and has passengers from the Arun Valley and further away to fill its eight coaches.

With the best will in the world, outside of peak times, the stations between Horsham and Purley barely filled a four-coach Southern train to London Bridge before May 2018. To expect a 12-coach train to look anything other than deserted on this route at off-peak times is quite unlikely.

If we had a full weekend timetable at Redhill, the eight coaches for Victoria each hour would appear busy and the 48 coaches for London Bridge and Thameslink would be fairly empty. That said, I think more people are now using London Bridge services.

The last time I was trying to find out if the full timetable would ever be introduced at a meet the manager session they said the same thing. Where passengers have a choice they pick Southern. So making a journey like Brighton - Gatwick Airport the southern service is full, the Thameslink is empty. Passengers actively avoid Thameslink where an alternative exists because it is so unreliable.

They didn’t give a date when the full timetable would be introduced. Not this side of Christmas but they hope loading would even out.

I don't believe that anyone travelling from Brighton to Gatwick has the slightest care about which train they use. They just catch the first train which appears (unless they have a Thameslink only ticket).

I think that the management are pinning their hopes on the opening of Crossrail and interchange at Farringdon as making people use Thameslink rather than Southern to get to London. I don't think you can underestimate the traffic from Clapham Junction with regard to the effect on Southern trains to Brighton appearing busier than Thameslink ones off peak.

 

[Failed Unit]

I wonder if they ever manage to implement the full service where people are actually going.

If you look at the underground

London Bridge is better for going east of course. Blackfriars has the District as does Victoria.

If the full service ever happens Thameslink offers more distribution to the underground (Which was part of the plan) but will passengers transfer.

I suspect at the moment if you are heading to East Croydon you probably prefer Victoria for more likelyhood of seeing a train.

But thinking about it, Brighton to Gatwick will be whatever appears first. If you need to go to a London terminal I am sure Thameslink was avoided.

 

[tsr]

There is also an enduring stigma amongst the market south of the Thames that Thameslink services to London are very slow. This is generally based on perceptions from the years when trains ran via Herne Hill, although obviously not helped by the fear of delays from the revised timetable (when, as it currently stands, outright cancellations are much more likely at the moment).

The publicity around the reopening of London Bridge has been all well and good, but it doesn’t seem to have done nearly enough to persuade people that they won’t generally end up with a half-hour 20mph tour of the back gardens of Norwood, which is approximately one of the most depressing urban vistas in the UK.

 

[387star]

There is also an enduring stigma amongst the market south of the Thames that Thameslink services to London are very slow. This is generally based on perceptions from the years when trains ran via Herne Hill, although obviously not helped by the fear of delays from the revised timetable (when, as it currently stands, outright cancellations are much more likely at the moment).

The publicity around the reopening of London Bridge has been all well and good, but it doesn’t seem to have done nearly enough to persuade people that they won’t generally end up with a half-hour 20mph tour of the back gardens of Norwood, which is approximately one of the most depressing urban vistas in the UK.

Speaking of South London suburbia are there plans to demolish the tower block above Thornton Heath station which looks pretty ugly

Overline House above Crawley station is another monstrosity...

Why is the Norwood area diversion depressing in your view? I can see it is in parts... there's a derelict pub right by Norwood Junction station which appears to be being worked on.. but once you reach crystal palace things become pretty plush! Quite a mix really as is common across London
Elephant is dire but at least the shopping centre is soon to be pulles down. So many ugly high risers crammed into a small space! Inner City living at its finest