Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[bramling]

Heh, this is a problem that affects so many companies I've worked for and consulted for. I know someone who's literally written a book on this phenomenon.

KPIs (Key Performance Indicators) drive behaviour. They are generally designed with a particular behaviour in mind, but the Law Of Unintended Consequences kicks in rather rapidly (particularly if they're very blunt measures, badly thought through, or dogmatically applied).

So, you have a desired behaviour: minimise delays. The measure? How much your trains are delayed by. Makes sense. People working for the railway have delay minutes in mind.

But then you're looking at the trains and how their performance can be optimised. Skip stops to make up time? OK. Ignore a delayed connecting service to avoid a delay (paths pending). OK.

What would the alternative be? What would happen if you measured passenger delay minutes instead of train delay minutes. Hardly beyond the capability of railway IT to have a reasonable estimate of passengers flows, and model the total delay minutes by taking one course of action over another. More passenger friendly? Sure.

But that has unintended consequences, too. What are the knock-on delays down the line? On a congested network, what are you snarling up? Where to driver hours come into all of this?

No simple answer, really. I've no doubt NR have some data scientists looking into this, who know far more about the topic than I do. But that's what KPIs do: drive unintended behaviour. The art is balancing them, and reacting appropriately to the negative consequences.

There are still staff left in the industry who are prepared to stick their finger up at target nonsense and simply do what's right for the service. However they do find themselves on the wrong side of management for their troubles!

London Underground is another classic example - they do something called the "snapshot", which is the number of trains running on a line at a given time (normally on the hour) versus the number which are timetabled to be running. The principle is sound enough, however it didn't take long before certain managers started exploiting this to their benefit - for example arranging coverage such that any cancellations affect services which don't hit a snapshot time, bringing a train out a couple of minutes early so it comes in at XX59 instead of XX01, or in extreme cases bringing a train out of a depot to sit in a platform for a couple of minutes at shapshot time. None of this benefits the passenger, as what matters is trains being where they're timetabled to be, not just that they happen to be on the railway. Not everyone is prepared to play the game though. In a different world it might be considered as fraud, given that money changes hands as a result of these performance targets.

In the case of GTR though I'd say the issue is more that they're trying to run a service which is inherently flawed, and haven't put in enough mitigations to get it work tolerably well.

 

[Aictos]

There seems to be wired getting crossed here.

On 20th November:

9J54 (1655 Horsham - Peterborough) booked to depart Hitchin at 1850 was cancelled.
9J56 (1725 Horsham - Peterborough) booked to depart Hitchin at 1920 cancelled as part of the interim timetable.
9J58 (1755 Horsham - Peterborough) booked to depart Hitchin at 1950 was 17 late arriving at Hitchin, which was then amended to omit Arlesey, Biggleswade, Sandy and St Neots
9J60 (1825 Horsham - Peterborough) booked to depart Hitchin at 2020 departed at 2021.

If you actually read my post properly rather then go straight into assume mode, you would have seen that I quite clearly was not commenting on any issues affecting the 20th November but rather was commenting on any issues affecting the 21st and 22nd November.

Yes there were issues on the 20th November but as I was NOT discussing them at all in my post why bring them up?

Maybe a trip to Specsavers is in order so you can actually read my post correctly

My two cents on this if I was GTR Control:

9J64 running 21L, run fast from Hitchin to Huntingdon on the basis that the train in front was not cancelled AND the train behind is roughly 9 minutes behind.

I would change that so the late train would call Hitchin, Biggleswade, St Neots then Peterborough as they all have platforms on the fast lines OR run it as booked but terminate at Huntingdon and run round at Connington ensuring the next working is restarted but at Huntingdon which is the least worse method provided of course that doesn't impact on train crew resources for example if the train is meant to have a change of train crew at Peterborough then both drivers are aware of it terminating at Huntingdon.

If these conditions can't be met, then it is better to not skip stop the service here and get them to just continue the late running for the convenience of passengers. If the train is struggling to make up time, then implement a stop order to skip stations on part of the line where there is a reasonable alternative within a few minutes stopping at many of the stations the Horsham train would stop at. For example, running fast from East Croydon to Gatwick Airport perhaps, with passengers getting a Reigate or Gatwick Airport service instead which *should* not be too far behind.

Agreed but when it's a hourly service as it was on Sundays then that doesn't help as much, that said the general outline of the idea is a good one.

To me it makes sense to do the above but I am no expert.

Placing stop orders can be a smart and efficient way to recover the service but make sure communication between different members of staff, and between staff and customers is consistent and on point. But don't exploit it and make sure passengers have a reasonable alternative to reach their destination.

As it always should be but then again people like to rant against their service provider which won't stop even if GTR actually provided the best service possible, some will still rant on about it being terrible.

And indeed using stop orders can be a effective method of recovering the service but you need to ensure everybody is singing to the same key.

 

[387star]

Anyone know which brighton to Cambridge services will stop at Norwood junction south croydon Purley oaks Purley coulsdon south merstham redhill earlswood salfords horley?

 

[JonathanH]

Anyone know which brighton to Cambridge services will stop at Norwood junction south croydon Purley oaks Purley coulsdon south merstham redhill earlswood salfords horley?

None of them. Redhill was meant to be an intermediate stop in a Sunday Cambridge to Gatwick train under the May 2018 timetable that never happened.

 

[717001]

Transport Select Committe have announced that they are publishing their Rail timetable changes report on Tue 4 Dec:

https://www.parliament.uk/business/...ail-timetable-changes-report-op-notice-17-19/

 

[sefton]

GTR playing toy train sets again this evening.

9J63 19:54 Peterborough to Horsham leaves 9 minutes late, so they decide to skip stop to Hitchin where it arrives 6 minutes early and they have to leave it parked on the platform until it is time to leave - http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W64343/2018/11/30/advanced

Meanwhile GTR's customers at the skipped stops now need to wait an hour for the next train.

Really? The timetable is so fragile that it cannot cope with a 9 minute delay without falling apart resulting in customers being delayed by an hour.

 

[Mag_seven]

GTR playing toy train sets again this evening.

9J63 19:54 Peterborough to Horsham leaves 9 minutes late, so they decide to skip stop to Hitchin where it arrives 6 minutes early and they have to leave it parked on the platform until it is time to leave - http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W64343/2018/11/30/advanced

Meanwhile GTR's customers at the skipped stops now need to wait an hour for the next train.

Really? The timetable is so fragile that it cannot cope with a 9 minute delay without falling apart resulting in customers being delayed by an hour.

That seems particularly poor for an hourly service - hopefully all those waiting will claim delay repay.

 

[sefton]

That seems particularly poor for an hourly service - hopefully all those waiting will claim delay repay.

GTR won't care as the DfT foots the bill (do GTR get a handling fee to process the claims, so they profit from their incompetence?).

 

[radamfi]

Why is the weekend service still so limited, even during the next timetable? Surely there is no longer an issue with driver training?

 

[JonathanH]

Why is the weekend service still so limited, even during the next timetable? Surely there is no longer an issue with driver training?

There probably is still an issue with former GN drivers signing Brighton and Horsham and their Southern counterparts signing Cambridge and Peterborough - likewise with the new destinations for drivers at Midland route depots - all adds up to lots of training still needed.

There is also the matter of frequent engineering work on the Brighton line which requires a reduced level of service and lower demand over the winter.

 

[radamfi]

There probably is still an issue with former GN drivers signing Brighton and Horsham and their Southern counterparts signing Cambridge and Peterborough - likewise with the new destinations for drivers at Midland route depots - all adds up to lots of training still needed.

There is also the matter of frequent engineering work on the Brighton line which requires a reduced level of service and lower demand over the winter.

Is there actually any training being done? How long does it take to train everybody who needs to be trained to run a normal Saturday or Sunday service?

How does Brighton Line engineering mean only a half hourly service on the MML, even on Saturdays? Surely they could run extras between Bedford and London Bridge or something like that?

 

[jon0844]

Why is the weekend service still so limited, even during the next timetable? Surely there is no longer an issue with driver training?

Yes there is. A lot of driver training starting in December, which may well mean we'll see some more shortages of staff on Sunday's in the run up to Christmas.

 

[bramling]

GTR playing toy train sets again this evening.

9J63 19:54 Peterborough to Horsham leaves 9 minutes late, so they decide to skip stop to Hitchin where it arrives 6 minutes early and they have to leave it parked on the platform until it is time to leave - http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W64343/2018/11/30/advanced

Meanwhile GTR's customers at the skipped stops now need to wait an hour for the next train.

Really? The timetable is so fragile that it cannot cope with a 9 minute delay without falling apart resulting in customers being delayed by an hour.

Two nights running my 365s home have been busier than usual due to the Peterborough 700 in front being cancelled (Thursday) and just 26 minutes late (Friday). On the plus side actually arrived on time, which only happens when the 700 is either very late or cancelled. This is pretty typical.

So still not working smoothly, just in case anyone is under the false impression that all is just fine.

 

[700007]

GTR playing toy train sets again this evening.

9J63 19:54 Peterborough to Horsham leaves 9 minutes late, so they decide to skip stop to Hitchin where it arrives 6 minutes early and they have to leave it parked on the platform until it is time to leave - http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W64343/2018/11/30/advanced

Meanwhile GTR's customers at the skipped stops now need to wait an hour for the next train.

Really? The timetable is so fragile that it cannot cope with a 9 minute delay without falling apart resulting in customers being delayed by an hour.

Only 9 minutes? That is incredibly poor to justify skip stopping.

 

[Aictos]

One question I do have and it affects both Thameslink and Southern but as Thameslink operate the majority of services on the Wimbledon/Sutton Loop (depending on direction of travel), Has any thought been given to transferring the peak only Southern London Bridge to Sutton via Wimbledon services across to Thameslink?

Prior to the talked about Blackfriars to London Bridge via said Loop services starting of course....

 

[sefton]

Only 9 minutes? That is incredibly poor to justify skip stopping.

It certainly demonstrates that GTR don't give a damn about their customers.

 

[westcoaster]

GTR playing toy train sets again this evening.

9J63 19:54 Peterborough to Horsham leaves 9 minutes late, so they decide to skip stop to Hitchin where it arrives 6 minutes early and they have to leave it parked on the platform until it is time to leave - http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W64343/2018/11/30/advanced

Meanwhile GTR's customers at the skipped stops now need to wait an hour for the next train.

Really? The timetable is so fragile that it cannot cope with a 9 minute delay without falling apart resulting in customers being delayed by an hour.

What I do when given a not to stop order is constantly check any made up time. I had it a few months back where the train had an 8 min booked wait at an intermediate station. So I phoned up and waited the booked departure time instead of continuing skipping stops.
It only takes a few moments to cross check.

 

[ComUtoR]

It certainly demonstrates that GTR don't give a damn about their customers.

It certainly demonstrates how successful skip stopping can be.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Yes there is. A lot of driver training starting in December, which may well mean we'll see some more shortages of staff on Sunday's in the run up to Christmas.

It's also the end of the leave year, so lots of leave to use up. Plus its Christmas so no one wants to work overtime.

 

[ijmad]

One question I do have and it affects both Thameslink and Southern but as Thameslink operate the majority of services on the Wimbledon/Sutton Loop (depending on direction of travel), Has any thought been given to transferring the peak only Southern London Bridge to Sutton via Wimbledon services across to Thameslink?

Prior to the talked about Blackfriars to London Bridge via said Loop services starting of course....

These services run via North/East Dulwich and Queens Road Peckham on the way in to London Bridge. Stations that are managed and currently served 100% by Southern, a nice clean clockface 4tph off peak / 6tph peak all day.

So while this move would provide more consistency for passengers on the loop, it would be a less consistent for passengers on this corridor. It's not a perfect situation either way.

Besides, these services aren't particularly useful for passengers on the loop at the moment as they run the wrong way for the peak commuter flows. As you say, when they are able to link up to Blackfriars they will become more beneficial!

 

[bramling]

It certainly demonstrates how successful skip stopping can be.

Successful in alienating users?

The only thing it demonstrates to me is that something is *badly* wrong with a timetable and / or its associated rolling stock diagrams and staff duty schedules if a small delay appears to need any recovery measure to be used - skip stopping or otherwise.

The service on the Peterborough route is now nothing short of appalling. Turning up for a given timetabled service is a complete lottery as to what will happen.

I’m fortunate enough that I don’t need to use it as thankfully I have a 365 service from King’s Cross (albeit later than ideal - so I’m still losing 20 minutes every evening compared to the old timetable, although the flip side of the coin is I get a slightly emptier train most of the time). However I see what happens to the preceding Thameslink services. It’s very rare indeed for both the preceding Cambridge and Peterborough ShamblesLink/ services to be right time. Quite often one or other, sometimes both, are cancelled. Other times one or both are delayed - often by quite hefty amounts like 15 minutes or more.

This whole programme is messing passengers around. It’s entirely an industry-created problem (and when I say industry I include DFT in that) as the old service was generally reliable. Do we have to wait for all the current bunch of management to have moved on so that others can sort out the shambles without those responsible having to admit failure?

I’d say passenger numbers are falling. The train I get home has got progressively emptier since May - even on days when the preceding one or even two services are cancelled. It’s now rare to have more than two or three others in the carriage. The usual exodus of cars and taxis at my station following a train arrival now seems to be diminishing. Perhaps more people are taking the KX-Cambridge stopping service as it tends to be more reliable - for now - thanks to its very generous half-hour turnaround at King’s Cross.

The people who designed and implemented this fiasco should be removed from the industry and never allowed back.

 

[sefton]

It certainly demonstrates how successful skip stopping can be.

Perhaps GTR could make further improvements by skipping all stops on all services and not letting customers board at the terminus and they could then achieve perfection on their train set.

They might also might wear an appropriate hat and make "Choo Choo" sounds whilst doing so.

However being serious, I would be inviting whoever made the ridiculous decision on Friday to an interview and asking them why I shouldn't fire them on the spot.

 

[Failed Unit]

Perhaps GTR could make further improvements by skipping all stops on all services and not letting customers board at the terminus and they could then achieve perfection on their train set.

They might also might wear an appropriate hat and make "Choo Choo" sounds whilst doing so.

However being serious, I would be inviting whoever made the ridiculous decision on Friday to an interview and asking them why I shouldn't fire them on the spot.

I have seen many services on the on the on the WGC (both locals and the London - Cambridge services) skip stop and make up 0 minutes. (you see it a lot on real times with the Peterborough - Horsham services)

A recent example

0708 WGC - Moorgate delayed - it departed at 0732

However

0724 WGC - Moorgate had already departed ahead of it at 0730, which was delayed by the 0722 -WGC (ex Cambridge) running later.

I was on the 0732 hoping we would be put on the fast line, we were not and followed the stopping train all the way. Hadley Wood, Oakleigh Park and New Southgate passengers didn't look too amused as we passed at low speed. We arrived at Finsbury Park making up about 3 minutes delay where we were diverted into King Cross (I assume to start the outbound on time at Finsbury Park) So not much was gained. See this a few times when they decide to skip the King Cross - Cambridge until Stevenage but still keep it on the slow behind a stopper gaining maybe 5 minutes.

GTRs first response is skip everything, but not look at if skipping will actually get the train back on time. I know this discussion seems to focus on the north of the route, but south of Gatwick Airport seems to be treated with as much contempt as north of Hitchin.

Still no sign of getting a usable weekend service after 6 months.

 

[Steve Harris]

It certainly demonstrates how successful skip stopping can be.

It also certainly demonstrates how to p** off your paying customers !

Oh hang on. GTR don't actually have any paying customers. Perhaps things would be different if they did ??

 

[ComUtoR]

However being serious, I would be inviting whoever made the ridiculous decision on Friday to an interview and asking them why I shouldn't fire them on the spot.

The train was brought back to time. The controller, or whoever gave the instruction to skip stops made a decision and recovered the service. Considering that is the role of the controllers I would be supporting that member of staff. You wouldn't be firing them because they did their job correctly. Countless services across the entire network are recovered in such a way. If you pulled the member of staff in for any form of disciplinary you would find yourself in very deep water.

 

[Failed Unit]

The train was brought back to time. The controller, or whoever gave the instruction to skip stops made a decision and recovered the service. Considering that is the role of the controllers I would be supporting that member of staff. You wouldn't be firing them because they did their job correctly. Countless services across the entire network are recovered in such a way. If you pulled the member of staff in for any form of disciplinary you would find yourself in very deep water.

But what is GTRs role to move passengers from A - B or to move trains from A - B. Since May I think it is the latter rather than the former.

Peak services should not be skip stopping in the direction of the majority of the passengers, depart the return contra-peak service late and skip stop it if needed. Not many great northern services have peak in both directions. I am sure if the return went non-stop from Peterborough - Stevenage fewer passengers would have got inconvienced with the same outcome a train on-time by the time it hit the core again rather than skipping stop in the direction the passengers actually wanted to go.

 

[sefton]

The train was brought back to time. The controller, or whoever gave the instruction to skip stops made a decision and recovered the service. Considering that is the role of the controllers I would be supporting that member of staff. You wouldn't be firing them because they did their job correctly. Countless services across the entire network are recovered in such a way. If you pulled the member of staff in for any form of disciplinary you would find yourself in very deep water.

Running a train to time isn't the point of running a train service. It is actually carrying your customers from A to B, so whoever made that decision did not do their job correctly.

A train that is 9 minutes late is a slight annoyance to customers. Waiting an hour because that 9 minute late train sailed through without stopping, leaving someone stood in the cold and rain at 8.30 pm makes customers think that the company is being run by people who are incompetent.

As before, if whoever made that ridiculous decision couldn't come up with anything better as an excuse then I would fire them before they did something even more stupid.

 

[ComUtoR]

As before, if whoever made that ridiculous decision couldn't come up with anything better as an excuse then I would fire them before they did something even more stupid.

Then you would be the subject of an employment tribunal and out of a job.

The people in control have the bigger picture to those of us on the ground. There may have been other reasons why they needed that unit out the way. Just because you didn't see the reasons why doesn't mean they don't exist.

 

[sefton]

Then you would be the subject of an employment tribunal and out of a job.

I doubt that. Making incompetent decisions which strand your employer's customers for an hour without a good reason is a pretty good reason for dismissal.

The people in control have the bigger picture to those of us on the ground. There may have been other reasons why they needed that unit out the way. Just because you didn't see the reasons why doesn't mean they don't exist.

Really! You want to defend GTR stranding their customers for an hour for a train that was 9 minutes late.

And it then had to park up at a station for 6 minutes because it was now too early!

 

[Steve Harris]

I doubt that. Making incompetent decisions which strand your employer's customers for an hour without a good reason is a pretty good reason for dismissal.



Really! You want to defend GTR stranding their customers for an hour for a train that was 9 minutes late.

And it then had to park up at a station for 6 minutes because it was now too early!

Thing is, GTR only have one customer, the DFT.

Which leads onto the question..... Would things be different if they actually had customers supplying there revenue ??,