Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[jon0844]

When a 180 caught on fire in the Welwyn North tunnels, fitters were blue lighted to the scene. I wonder if this could be done on a more regular basis with the assistance of BTP?

 

[bramling]

When a 180 caught on fire in the Welwyn North tunnels, fitters were blue lighted to the scene. I wonder if this could be done on a more regular basis with the assistance of BTP?

LU do it, but there are strict conditions - namely that the incident must meet certain criteria. That hasn’t stopped the odd trainstop being blue-lighted to a signal failure over the years, although should some kind of incident occur then serious questions would be asked.

 

[jon0844]

So the driver of 1Pnn being thirsty wouldn't warrant a blue lighted delivery of Harrogate water then?

It sounds to me like it would be a good idea for the likes of GTR to consider, if it hasn't already been. I expect BTP would quite like to do this if they get to drive their cars fast with the blues and twos on, instead of doing whatever it is they do most of the time.

 

[OwenB]

The core looks like a bit of a disaster tonight. Several cancellations and late running.

Thankfully i’m On the 2106 ‘pullman’ from Kings Cross which has called additionally at Finsbury Park due to the disruption.

They managed to roger up the Moorgate line, the trains from King's Cross and the ones from the Core. Full house!

 

[bramling]

So the driver of 1Pnn being thirsty wouldn't warrant a blue lighted delivery of Harrogate water then?

It sounds to me like it would be a good idea for the likes of GTR to consider, if it hasn't already been. I expect BTP would quite like to do this if they get to drive their cars fast with the blues and twos on, instead of doing whatever it is they do most of the time.

Definitely not for delivering water to a driver! I forget the exact criteria, however the gist of it is that there must be a level of danger to passengers inherent in the incident, the main justification being the risk of people being stuck in tunnels on hot trains. Naturally this is flexed a little in reality - however this could lead to hot water landings should an accident happen.

The way it’s done is a BTP driver and car is attached to one (or perhaps two now) incident response managers, plus there’s also a separate truck for the ERU which has a BTP driver. There’s definitely one based at Camden, perhaps elsewhere too. Naturally they can ferry other staff around as and when required, although again there would have to be a justification why blue light is necessary.

It certainly leads to better response times, however there's a snag -- because there’s only the one or two incident response managers for the network, unless they happen to pick someone else up on the way, it’s only a generalist manager arriving on site. The specialist line-based ones are the people who actually get things moving, as they can do things like deal with defective trains, move trains in emergency, et cetera.

 

[notverydeep]

I think a brief "Passengers using Oyster or contactless can travel via the Piccadilly line and bus to most stations we serve. For further details speak to TfL staff." would be reasonable. Then, as with most things GTR, it would be a question of training.

Or perhaps simply, "Passengers may find it quicker to seek alternative routes". Staff would then be able to answer questions as best they can. Certainly, you shouldn't advise a very time consuming alternative route without at least being able to tell people how long it would take - then passengers can make their own trade off between waiting for a resolution (the best bet, but only with hindsight), the alternative GTR route via Stevenage, or the alternative route using non GTR services / modes. They could also advise whether ticket acceptance was being sought / had been given (as I believe was the case, but perhaps not initially). There were three members of staff on the 'down' slow island and several others on adjacent platforms, some of whom might have been called to assist...

Another oddity yesterday during the PM Peak - again with a sprinkling of late running from the core and cancellation on GN. I ended up on 9J52 1625 Horsham - Peterborough at Finsbury Park running half an hour late through the core, hoping for 2C48 1821 King's Cross - Cambridge slow to Welwyn Garden City - which was cancelled south of WGC. Very oddly, 1R52 1824 King's Cross - Royston was announced as an additional train calling at Potters Bar, Welwyn North and then that train's normal calls. This seems rather a random control decision. Usually, additional stops are to avoid hour long gaps between WGC and Stevenage, as at WGC and points south there are both Moorgate services and the King's Cross WGC semi-fasts (2Y48 1836 London Kings Cross to Welwyn Garden City was not cancelled and is only 15 minutes behind 2C48).

There were no PAs at Finsbury Park that suggested there would be an onward service from Royston to the Villages (as 2C48 started at WGC), although I would imagine most bound for those stations would take this to Royston in case. Neither was there a suggestion that Hatfield and WGC bound passengers might be reached earlier by taking 1R52 to Potters Bar. Not one to turn down 2 x 365 when available, I took this to Potters Bar and was able to make the slightly late 2V28 1800 Moorgate to Welwyn Garden City (which normally 2C48 crawls behind) which 1R52 had overtaken and got to WGC only 6 minutes late, but most Hatfield and WGC passengers missed out on this and would have been 20 minutes later despite 1R52 being delayed presumably to help out...

 

[Lozzy0603]

Why do the signal blocks in the Thameslink Core section show up as so many blocks within the station? e.g. six blocks in the southbound City Thameslink. https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/tlk_core

Is the visual representation of this actually not the case, because this is just ATO absolute block sections? In which case why would the absolute blocks be so close together; because presumably if an 8-coach train stops at one of the blocks closest to the entry of the platform, the rest of the platform is still of no use to any train?
Sorry if I've completely mis-understood whats represented here. Thanks!

 

[greatkingrat]

The point is that under conventional signalling, the second train can't be signalled into the platform until the first train has completely left the platform and cleared the overlap of the starting signal.

Under ATO you can potentially have the second train start to move into the the platform while the back of the first train is still leaving the platform, reducing the distance between trains and increasing the capacity of the line.

 

[Lozzy0603]

Bueno! Thanks. So I see on Opentraintimes maps it looks like they have done a similar thing with London Bridge blocks? Could this potentially be future proofing for ATO signalling to London Bridge? (Or does it just not work like that?)
Is there anywhere else on the UK mainline network where signal blocks work like this, I'm guessing Crossrail core might be similar when it opens?

 

[Far north 37]

Without trawling through all the pages to see if it’s mentioned already but shocked to see west hampstead thameslink only getting a half hourly service northbound during rush hour used to be at least every 5 minutes when i last used it.

 

[swt_passenger]

Bueno! Thanks. So I see on Opentraintimes maps it looks like they have done a similar thing with London Bridge blocks? Could this potentially be future proofing for ATO signalling to London Bridge? (Or does it just not work like that?)
Is there anywhere else on the UK mainline network where signal blocks work like this, I'm guessing Crossrail core might be similar when it opens?

Haven’t the core stations got additional conventional signals half way along the platforms, as well as the extra ATO blocks?

 

[Hadders]

Without trawling through all the pages to see if it’s mentioned already but shocked to see west hampstead thameslink only getting a half hourly service northbound during rush hour used to be at least every 5 minutes when i last used it.

Checking a random weekday in December between 17:00 and 17:59 there are northbound departures at:

17:07 to Luton
17:14 to St Albans
17:22 to Luton
17:29 to St Albans
17:37 to Luton
17:43 to St Albans
17:52 to Luton
17:59 to St Albans

Hardly a half hourly service and I doubt it's never been every 5 minutes.

 

[Aictos]

Checking a random weekday in December between 17:00 and 17:59 there are northbound departures at:

17:07 to Luton
17:14 to St Albans
17:22 to Luton
17:29 to St Albans
17:37 to Luton
17:43 to St Albans
17:52 to Luton
17:59 to St Albans

Hardly a half hourly service and I doubt it's never been every 5 minutes.

That is the case nowadays however the other member is correct as back in 2007 to 2008 as advertised in the Dec 2007 - May 2008 timetable there was a number of services northbound that were actually 5 mins apart, some were even 6 mins apart now I've double checked the data and I have discovered that the following services operated northbound from West Hampstead Thameslink that were 5 minutes apart or less so:

08:04 ex Moorgate to St Albans
08:09 ex Tulse Hill to Bedford

17:18 ex Sutton to Bedford
17:22 ex Sutton to Luton

18:02 ex Sutton to Bedford
18:06 ex Moorgate to St Albans

18:32 ex Moorgate to Bedford
18:36 ex Sutton to St Albans

That is only a few, however you are right as I most certainly wouldn't call the current timetable for WHP (West Hampstead Thameslink) a half hourly timetable as the only two services that are half hourly apart are:

1714 Sutton (Surrey) [SUO] to St Albans [SAC]
1743 Sutton (Surrey) [SUO] to St Albans [SAC]

And that really isn't enough to say the entire timetable is half hourly northbound in the evening peak from WHP for example with just two trains being so affected especially if you look at the timetable again and see it's more or less a 15 minute frequency to St Albans/Luton from where you can catch connections to Bedford so not all doom and gloom.

 

[bhb]

First post...
This may already have been discussed, but, why is the Sunday service at Purley completely destroyed by the thameslink shambles? This week, there are 2 trains per hour, taking nearly an hour. Nearby Coulsdon South does seem to have fast trains to London Bridge, but, I can't see why those couldn't stop at Purley!

 

[387star]

First post...
This may already have been discussed, but, why is the Sunday service at Purley completely destroyed by the thameslink shambles? This week, there are 2 trains per hour, taking nearly an hour. Nearby Coulsdon South does seem to have fast trains to London Bridge, but, I can't see why those couldn't stop at Purley!

Coulsdon south has a direct service to Portsmouth though! Can't have it all

 

[JonathanH]

First post...
This may already have been discussed, but, why is the Sunday service at Purley completely destroyed by the thameslink shambles? This week, there are 2 trains per hour, taking nearly an hour. Nearby Coulsdon South does seem to have fast trains to London Bridge, but, I can't see why those couldn't stop at Purley!

Victoria (platforms 9-19) closed on Sunday. Heavily reduced service on Saturday (although you could go to Riddlesdown for Victoria as the East Grinstead service is the only one between East Croydon and Victoria and runs via Crystal Palace).

You lose the normal Reigate to Victoria train which instead runs Reigate to Tonbridge. Purley's service maintained by a half-hourly Caterham / Tattenham Corner to London Bridge train service.

Don't expect the Bedford to Gatwick Airport service to run any time soon at the weekend, especially on Sundays.

 

[JonathanH]

Coulsdon south has a direct service to Portsmouth though! Can't have it all

Only Arundel on Sunday due to engineering works at the southern end of the line - it doesn't stop at Purley this Sunday because it doesn't stop there in the full service.

 

[greatkingrat]

First post...
This may already have been discussed, but, why is the Sunday service at Purley completely destroyed by the thameslink shambles? This week, there are 2 trains per hour, taking nearly an hour. Nearby Coulsdon South does seem to have fast trains to London Bridge, but, I can't see why those couldn't stop at Purley!

Don't think it has much to do with Thameslink. Victoria (Southern side) is closed on Sunday so all trains are diverted to London Bridge with reduced frequencies. As for Coulsdon South, something has to stop there, as it doesn't have the alternative of the slow Caterham trains like Purley.

 

[bhb]

Thanks for all those Purley replies!
I appreciate that this Sunday has been destroyed by engineering works. But, given the years of disruption at places like Purley, would it be wrong to think that a generally improved service in the area could have happened?

 

[paul332]

"shocked to see west hampstead thameslink only getting a half hourly service northbound during rush hour" ... That is indeed the case in the present timetable, nothing between 17:14 and 17:43. Same for Mill Hill Broadway, Elstree and Radlett. Kentish Town, Cricklewood and Hendon fare even worse, with a 35-minute gap. I travelled in the 17:43 once (17:26 from City Thameslink), absolutely rammed, unsurprisingly.

However, miracle of miracles, sanity is restored in the December 10th timetable, with no fewer than three extra trains inserted in that gap, restoring an even 7½-minute service from the core to WHT, MHB etc, and a 15-minute service to KT, C & H with an extra thrown in (the 17:26 from City to St Albans will continue to stop at all stations, as well as the Lutons).

That's according to the published Thameslink timetables and on RTT. Hopefully will be sustained, with sufficient drivers. In which case at least the BedPan locals will have their pre-May 20th service reinstated.

 

[hooverboy]

"shocked to see west hampstead thameslink only getting a half hourly service northbound during rush hour" ... That is indeed the case in the present timetable, nothing between 17:14 and 17:43. Same for Mill Hill Broadway, Elstree and Radlett. Kentish Town, Cricklewood and Hendon fare even worse, with a 35-minute gap. I travelled in the 17:43 once (17:26 from City Thameslink), absolutely rammed, unsurprisingly.

However, miracle of miracles, sanity is restored in the December 10th timetable, with no fewer than three extra trains inserted in that gap, restoring an even 7½-minute service from the core to WHT, MHB etc, and a 15-minute service to KT, C & H with an extra thrown in (the 17:26 from City to St Albans will continue to stop at all stations, as well as the Lutons).

That's according to the published Thameslink timetables and on RTT. Hopefully will be sustained, with sufficient drivers. In which case at least the BedPan locals will have their pre-May 20th service reinstated.

not what I've seen.

saturday service still at 30min intervals.pretty bloody poor.
pre may 20th it was 15 minute intervals.

had they gone for a blanket mon-sat 20 min spacing I don't think there wold have been too many complaints, but for a lot of folks saturday is just as much a workday as a weekday.

 

[MML]

Why is it that the Thameslink website does not show a timetable from 10th December for trains on the primary Thameslink route from Bedford to Brighton or for that matter Luton to Gatwick.
There is a timetable from Peterborough and Cambridge to Brighton, and timetables from Bedford to London and another from Brighton to London, but not one covering the whole route.

It's almost as if nobody wants to travel beyond London and the routes north and south of the Thames are split.
I honestly cannot see which trains from Bedford travel to Brighton.

 

[Bedpan]

I've just had a look on the Thameslink website, and I don't know whether it's because it's late at night but I can't make head or tail of them. There seem to be a number of timetables for the same route and 02 does show all the stations the "fast" trains stop at north of London (ie Bedford to St Albans plus West Hampstead Thameslink) and the main stations on the south side, but there is no mention of more minor stops like Balcombe, Burgess Hill etc. Worse still is Table 06, (why 06 and not 6?????) Luton to Dartford and Rainham, which includes Kentish Town, where no trains on the route call on Mondays to Fridays, whilst Radlett, Elstree & Borehamwood and Mill Hill Broadway, where all trains call, at least in the off-peak, are completely ignored. Even a footnote to say "Trains call at Radlett, Elstree and Mill Hill x, y and z minutes after St Albans would be something. The National Rail timetable for May to December is pretty much the same; Table 52 shows Elstree but not Radlett or Mill Hill.

The most logical explanation is that they could only include a certain number of stations and so picked station names out of a hat when publishing the timetables.

 

[717001]

Why is it that the Thameslink website does not show a timetable from 10th December for trains on the primary Thameslink route from Bedford to Brighton or for that matter Luton to Gatwick.
There is a timetable from Peterborough and Cambridge to Brighton, and timetables from Bedford to London and another from Brighton to London, but not one covering the whole route.

It's almost as if nobody wants to travel beyond London and the routes north and south of the Thames are split.
I honestly cannot see which trains from Bedford travel to Brighton.

Timetable 02, despite its name, does seem to show all the Brighton trains from the Bedford line for their full journeys: “This timetable shows all Thameslink services that call at any station between Bedford and St Albans City from 9 December 2018 until 18 May 2019.”
Suspect they called it what they did because it doesn’t cover other trains between London and Brighton - but it is confusing. Think they are really designed as hard copies for use at groups of stations.

(Edited to remove ambiguity in first line)

 

[MML]

Yes exactly.
There are over a dozen different timetables listed effective from 10th December.
Yet none display how to get between:
Bedford to Brighton.
Flitwick to Gatwick Airport
Luton to Haywards Heath
Harpenden to Littlehampton

It's a fairly fundamental oversight not showing services which form the whole purpose of your franchise existance.
Unbelievable !

 

[zoneking]

Re: Purley at weekends. Before this timetable fiasco, there were four trains an hour from Purley to Gatwick airport on Saturdays. Now there are none. I'm surprised there has not been more outrage.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Re: Purley at weekends. Before this timetable fiasco, there were four trains an hour from Purley to Gatwick airport on Saturdays. Now there are none. I'm surprised there has not been more outrage.

But GTR think people at Purley only want to go to London. Even during the week, southbound trains calling at Purley only go as far as Gatwick - there are no longer any direct trains to Crawley or Horsham. So anyone coming off the branches from Tattenham or Caterham now have a more convoluted journey.
Also the Earlswood and Salfords stoppers don't stop at Merstham and Coulsdon. Anyone trying to make a local trip now has a difficult life.

 

[OxtedSignaller]

But GTR think people at Purley only want to go to London. Even during the week, southbound trains calling at Purley only go as far as Gatwick - there are no longer any direct trains to Crawley or Horsham. So anyone coming off the branches from Tattenham or Caterham now have a more convoluted journey.
Also the Earlswood and Salfords stoppers don't stop at Merstham and Coulsdon. Anyone trying to make a local trip now has a difficult life.

The Reigate trains stop at these stops instead. In the week even off peak it's a great service, four fast trains per hour to London Bridge and two to Victoria plus the stoppers not many places have that level 9f service anymore post Thameslink and they still have Southern LBG trains which means no ironing board seats and a more reliable service.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Only Arundel on Sunday due to engineering works at the southern end of the line - it doesn't stop at Purley this Sunday because it doesn't stop there in the full service.

In the old timetable it did. The Sunday Horsham to London Bridge service now only goes as far as Redhill if London Bridge is shut rather than being diverted to Victoria like the good old days.

 

[Surreytraveller]

The Reigate trains stop at these stops instead. In the week even off peak it's a great service, four fast trains per hour to London Bridge and two to Victoria plus the stoppers not many places have that level 9f service anymore post Thameslink and they still have Southern LBG trains which means no ironing board seats and a more reliable service.

Brilliant service if you're going to London. You have the typical railway attitude of thinking everyone goes to London, though! Its useless for local journeys, say Purley to Crawley, or Coulsdon South to Earlswood