Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[387star]

I'd say the 387s are better than the 377s due to having 2+2 seating throughout. The 3+2 seats on the 377s are very uncomfortable.

Yeah despite having a slope in the back

 

[Minstral25]

No idea why trains don't run through the core to Peterborough and Cambridge on weekends this must change soon?

Agree and similarly the very busy Redhill route is limited to shuttles to London Bridge as well - nothing through the core and a pathetic one per hour on Sundays finishing early too! GTR need to step up weekend services soon

 

[Steve Harris]

Well there we go. What about comparing the bargain basement standard class area.

In two words... I daren't! My bum was numb after an hour in First. I doubt if i would be able to walk if i travelled in Standard !! lol

 

[BRX]

Ah I see. My mistake. I thought there was a later one than that. Thanks.

Sadly there's not. There's one that leaves blackfriars at 2346 but only goes as far as herne hill (and annoyingly skips loughborough junction) before heading for sevenoaks.

What we did fleetingly have with the May timetable (I think) was services at a 15min interval up until that last one...an improvement on the previous 30min interval late in the evenings. That however has been lost in the 'interim' timetable with some ugly gaps late on.

 

[The Box Photter]

Northbound services from Blackfriars to Bedford decimated again this evening because of a shortage of drivers. Where are they? Do they really exist or are they "virtual" drivers?

What hope for the proposed December timetable if they still haven't enough drivers to operate the "interim" timetable?

Who is asking GTR searching questions about the continued shoddy service? Chris Grayling? Transport Select Committee? Local constituency MPs? Answer - no-one.

The service level for passengers wanting to get on or off at the "less fortunate" stations excluding Luton, Parkway and Bedford is consistently appalling, whilst we watch half-empty "Thameslink Express" trains whoosh past carrying mostly fresh air.

 

[samuelmorris]

Last train via Wimbledon being 9:30 on weekdays is also pretty disgraceful, I didn't realise it was quite as bad as that until looking at my friend's return journey tonight. Ended up staying out an extra 90 minutes for them to catch the one random extra service at 11pm via Mitcham...

 

[westcoaster]

Last train via Wimbledon being 9:30 on weekdays is also pretty disgraceful, I didn't realise it was quite as bad as that until looking at my friend's return journey tonight. Ended up staying out an extra 90 minutes for them to catch the one random extra service at 11pm via Mitcham...

Has only been like that this week due to engineering works, normally services upto midnight via Wimbledon.

 

[samuelmorris]

Fair enough, it did seem especially bad but given the usual gaps in the timetable I didn't consider the possibility of engineering work.

 

[Abpj17]

Northbound services from Blackfriars to Bedford decimated again this evening because of a shortage of drivers. Where are they? Do they really exist or are they "virtual" drivers?

What hope for the proposed December timetable if they still haven't enough drivers to operate the "interim" timetable?

Who is asking GTR searching questions about the continued shoddy service? Chris Grayling? Transport Select Committee? Local constituency MPs? Answer - no-one.

The service level for passengers wanting to get on or off at the "less fortunate" stations excluding Luton, Parkway and Bedford is consistently appalling, whilst we watch half-empty "Thameslink Express" trains whoosh past carrying mostly fresh air.

And I couldn't see any comms about it - trains just vanished from the apps.

The passenger groups are clear that the service continues to be shoddy...

Thursday night was also particularly daft because after an 1hr plus gap, there were two trains 10 mins apart - and of course the first was 8 carriages and packed for the time of night (midnight - 1); the second was 12 carriages and pretty empty.

 

[jon0844]

If you are thrown that violently and you are aware of any track imperfections then you should report it ASAP

After this week there can't be many sections of track left not reported for rough rides and subject to speed restrictions!

I can't figure out how there can be so many track defects right now. Many on the Hertford Loop.

 

[Ze Random One]

After this week there can't be many sections of track left not reported for rough rides and subject to speed restrictions!

I can't figure out how there can be so many track defects right now. Many on the Hertford Loop.

Rail news had an article this week explaining this at least in part.
http://railnews.mobi/news/2018/09/27-controversial-lineside-tree-felling-set.html

Engineers are particularly hard at work in south east England, which experienced the hottest summer on record this year and also has the busiest commuter lines in the country. The prolonged drought means the ground is the driest it has been since soil moisture levels began to be recorded almost two decades ago, with pothole-like defects preventing some trains from running at normal line speeds in Kent and Sussex.

 

[Failed Unit]

Today shows still now recovery plan is in place for routine issues. In this case a fatality between Hitchin and Huntingdon.

Trains coming from Peterborough were delayed significantly Southbound.

A northbound service appears on platform 7 (Horsham - Peterborough) about 0825. Blocks the platform waiting for a driver to take it north. The following 0821 London KX - Cambridge service stuck behind. (Why they didn’t use a different platform we will never know)

Timetable now collapsed as nothing going north including the Moorgate route. Surprised this hasn’t back up into the core but still demonstrates the lack of plan b when disruption happens.

 

[bramling]

Today shows still now recovery plan is in place for routine issues. In this case a fatality between Hitchin and Huntingdon.

Trains coming from Peterborough were delayed significantly Southbound.

A northbound service appears on platform 7 (Horsham - Peterborough) about 0825. Blocks the platform waiting for a driver to take it north. The following 0821 London KX - Cambridge service stuck behind. (Why they didn’t use a different platform we will never know)

Timetable now collapsed as nothing going north including the Moorgate route. Surprised this hasn’t back up into the core but still demonstrates the lack of plan b when disruption happens.

Any idea that things have settled down is wide of the mark. I’ve been using the train this week. Out of 11 journeys, three cancellations (this is more than one would experience in a typical *year* not so long ago), and all bar one northbound journey late to some extent due to reactionary delays. This is all avoiding core services too, where the situation is worse. One evening this week there was a pretty hefty gap in the up service on the Cambridge branch - 2 hours I think - due to cancellations and non stopping.

Whilst things are not as bad as May and June which was the absolute pits, the service is still poor. It’s a lottery as to what will run and whether you’ll arrive on time. No doubt the crew situation will improve over time (something which simply should never have happened in the first place), but we’re left with a legacy of unreliability - nothing seen yet suggests this will improve, on the contrary things will get worse if and when more services run through. Meanwhile we wait to see when and if the undelivered deliverables materialise.

ShamblesLink/ and FailedPlan2020 are sadly spot-on appropriate for this disastrous and inept programme - badly designed and badly implemented.

It’s absolutely incredible that we now have regular occurrences of it taking 50 minutes to get from St Pancras or KX just to Finsbury Park. Six months ago even I, not exactly the greatest Thameslink optimist, would have laughed at that prospect. Transforming rail travel for good?

 

[NorthKent1989]

Things admittedly aren't quite as bad on the Medway route as things are on the GN side of things, bit there are still delays by 10-15 mins which if you need to be somewhere on time its not satisfactory at all.

I know friends in Cambridge who now just use Greater Anglia

 

[Failed Unit]

Be interested to know how Finsbury Park became blocked.

Did the signaller know that the Horsham - Peterborough service had no driver? I suspect they didn’t as if they did I would be surprised they didn’t route the 0821 service into platform 5.

Still don’t understand why nothing from Moorgate used platform 8. Unless another problem occurred such as the Moorgate - Gordon hill service failed on approach to FP

I know today’s route cause was outside control of the railway. But the round will be blocked again. Tree in line, failed train or signal failures happen. Recovery of the service at the moment doesn’t.

 

[Class315]

Be interested to know how Finsbury Park became blocked.

Did the signaller know that the Horsham - Peterborough service had no driver? I suspect they didn’t as if they did I would be surprised they didn’t route the 0821 service into platform 5.

Still don’t understand why nothing from Moorgate used platform 8. Unless another problem occurred such as the Moorgate - Gordon hill service failed on approach to FP

I know today’s route cause was outside control of the railway. But the round will be blocked again. Tree in line, failed train or signal failures happen. Recovery of the service at the moment doesn’t.

After passing Holloway there are no points to either the DS Via Platform 8 nor the Down Fast. Also trains cannot traverse over the down goods in passenger service as K327 is not fitted with AWS & can only be done in special circumstances.

As for Finsbury Park being blocked, when you’ve got trains running late with drivers on outer services entitled to take their PNB it’s bound to happen, before May - Driver changes only occurred on inner services & it worked with minimal disruption, it was an oversight that a platform was not reinstated over the Down Goods Personally but they may just be me.

 

[MikeWM]

Any idea that things have settled down is wide of the mark.

Agreed. As I haven't for a while, let's take another look at what used to be my regular morning commuting train - 0948 (0949 before May) Ely -> Cambridge.

Before May this was at over 98% for getting to CBG within 5 minutes of booked.

Last 5 days : 10 late, 12 late, 8 late, 31 late, 3 late. Not quite 98%...
Previous 5 days : 9 late, 6 late, 3 late, on time (!), 9 late. A little better but still very poor.

If I was still taking this train, I'd have missed the connecting bus I used to get at Cambridge 6 or 7 times out of these 10. Before May, it was once every few months at worst.


However, evenings are somewhat better than May/June - as the timetable completely collapsing as the day progresses, as it seemed to most days back then, is now a rarer event.

 

[notverydeep]

After passing Holloway there are no points to either the DS Via Platform 8 nor the Down Fast. Also trains cannot traverse over the down goods in passenger service as K327 is not fitted with AWS & can only be done in special circumstances.

As for Finsbury Park being blocked, when you’ve got trains running late with drivers on outer services entitled to take their PNB it’s bound to happen, before May - Driver changes only occurred on inner services & it worked with minimal disruption, it was an oversight that a platform was not reinstated over the Down Goods Personally but they may just be me.

Platform 8 became blocked at the same time, by 2F25 0820 Moorgate to Stevenage which ended up remaining in the platform from 0833 until 0917, why I don't know. This was eventually on the move 44 late (may have been empty by then). The train in platform 7 without a driver was 9J14 0713 Gatwick Airport to Peterborough which was at Finsbury Park from 0824 to 0911. With both slow platforms blocked, 2C08 0821 King's Cross to Cambridge had nowhere to go and was eventually 51 late at Finsbury Park. Numerous northbound trains from Moorgate simply had to queue up behind and other slow trains from King's Cross or trains from the core were also held up as they funneled through the down fast platform.

The Cambridge slows follow immediately behind the Horsham - Peterborough trains and are always likely to be past the point where diversion to platform 8 is possible, before any issue at Finsbury Park on the Peterborough train becomes apparent (unless known in advance), although academic in this case given that platform 8 was soon blocked as well. The southbound layout at Finsbury Park is a bit more forgiving at least of platform 2 being blocked, as the points north of the station allow the train behind to run through platform 1 from the 'home' signal, although even here a platform 2 and 1 blockage would bring much of the service to a stand...

 

[Sunset route]

Did the signaller know that the Horsham - Peterborough service had no driver? I suspect they didn’t as if they did I would be surprised they didn’t route the 0821 service into platform 5.

In the 30 odd years I’ve been a signalman/ler I can probably count on one hand the amount of times control has advised us that “train X” when it gets to “location Y” will not have drivers relief. The first you really get to know is when the cab radio CSR now GSMR rings and the current driver informs you that they have no relief and at which point we advise control.

 

[Bungle965]

Someone commented on the Brighton Mainline engineering works being announced on the 700s by a male voice, I'm not sure if I missed it but it would seem that the voice in question is the one of Geoff Marshall.
Sam

 

[Failed Unit]

Platform 8 became blocked at the same time, by 2F25 0820 Moorgate to Stevenage which ended up remaining in the platform from 0833 until 0917, why I don't know. This was eventually on the move 44 late (may have been empty by then). The train in platform 7 without a driver was 9J14 0713 Gatwick Airport to Peterborough which was at Finsbury Park from 0824 to 0911. With both slow platforms blocked, 2C08 0821 King's Cross to Cambridge had nowhere to go and was eventually 51 late at Finsbury Park. Numerous northbound trains from Moorgate simply had to queue up behind and other slow trains from King's Cross or trains from the core were also held up as they funneled through the down fast platform.

The Cambridge slows follow immediately behind the Horsham - Peterborough trains and are always likely to be past the point where diversion to platform 8 is possible, before any issue at Finsbury Park on the Peterborough train becomes apparent (unless known in advance), although academic in this case given that platform 8 was soon blocked as well. The southbound layout at Finsbury Park is a bit more forgiving at least of platform 2 being blocked, as the points north of the station allow the train behind to run through platform 1 from the 'home' signal, although even here a platform 2 and 1 blockage would bring much of the service to a stand...

That’s interesting. Didn’t notice the Stevenage train on 8. But would explain a lot. All delays attributed to the fatality although I suspect many were not on the Moorgate services.

You are right about southbound having more flexibility. Although that gives its own challenges. For example this morning a Peterborough - Horsham service was moved from platform 2 to platform 4. The first we knew of this was when it arrived. As you know Finsbury Park is bad for last minute alterations because it is so crowded. I waited for the Brighton service.

The flexibility is good but the use of platforms 4&5 does cause its own challenge.

 

[jon0844]

Quite a few delays at FPK caused by a relief driver stuck on another train in the berth behind. Then it requires line blocks for the driver to walk the track, or to transfer over to another train that stops alongside. Must be a nightmare for the signaller to work with this nonsense on almost a daily basis.

Personally, I'd send drivers up to FPK on the tube and give them a prepaid Oyster card than stick them on a train and hope it gets to a platform before getting stuck.

 

[Failed Unit]

Still amazing how quiet some of these services are. Just watched the 1742 Finsbury Park (ex Brighton) service leave Finsbury Park. Lots of empty seats. Maybe a legacy of the general unreliable service offered. But amazing considering how overcrowded some services are in the peak on the route.

 

[Ianno87]

Still amazing how quiet some of these services are. Just watched the 1742 Finsbury Park (ex Brighton) service leave Finsbury Park. Lots of empty seats. Maybe a legacy of the general unreliable service offered. But amazing considering how overcrowded some services are in the peak on the route.

Are evening peak passengers still 'defaulting' to King's Cross I wonder? Most of the places it stops at actually have more than from KX than SP in the current timetable.

 

[Failed Unit]

Are evening peak passengers still 'defaulting' to King's Cross I wonder? Most of the places it stops at actually have more than from KX than SP in the current timetable.

Probably are. Stevenage and Hitchin are the only 2 stops with a reasonable core timetable.

I guess going south it is easier just to grab what comes along. more of a risk going north if something goes wrong. Good for those that can use it. Nice quiet train while those on the kings cross route are rammed in like sardines

 

[bramling]

Are evening peak passengers still 'defaulting' to King's Cross I wonder? Most of the places it stops at actually have more than from KX than SP in the current timetable.

There’s certainly still quite a bit of passengers taking what possibly isn’t the most "optimum" train for their journey.

A lot of people are using the Cambridge North/Cambridge - KX stopping services for journeys for which there are other faster services available. This also seems to include some people making the full journey from Cambridge to London, as well as journeys like Hitchin and Stevenage to London. Perhaps more so in the up direction, as the down journey is tortuous due to stand time at various places.

Likewise the evening 365 services are rather busy. Something like the 2154 KX to Letchworth I’d expect to run fairly empty, as Hitchin passengers have a core service just 8 minutes ahead, and it’s the only fast Hitchin/Letchworth service from KX for an hour so one would expect people just to turn up at St Pancras for the next available every-15-minutes service. Yet the service is very well used to Hitchin, but strangely not to Letchworth for where I’d expect more to be be using it.

There’s also people who are taking particular services due to the rolling stock used - some commuters have certainly latched on to which are the 365 and 387 services.

Perhaps a lot is down to the timetable being rather erratic still due to the planned cancellations. Things may settle down when the May timetable is finally achieved, and the second semi-fast Cambridge, if it ever happens, will also even things up, although again much will depend on reliability which still isn’t showing much evidence of settling down - so some people are still going to go for the first available train / familiar train etc.

If people want an empty service, try some of the very early trains going north from KX. Pre-May there was just one 8 car and one 4 car going north from KX before 0600, now there are three 8 cars and three 12 cars. The 0533 Cambridge often leaves KX completely empty, although does pick up a handful at Finsbury Park. All very wonderful, except the previous level of capacity was more than adequate, and the new services seem to struggle to run on time for various reasons.

 

[Ianno87]

If people want an empty service, try some of the very early trains going north from KX. Pre May there was just one 8 car and one 4 car going north from KX before 0600, now there are three 8 cars and three 12 cars. The 0533 Cambridge often leaves KX completely empty, but does pick up a handful at Finsbury Park. All very wonderful, except the previous level of capacity was more than adequate, and the new services seem to struggle to run on time for various reasons.

Suspect that's related to stabling space at Cambridge - need to feed stock into service from Hornsey as there's only so much space at Cambridge CSD - Cambridge's peak direction service having gone from 4tph to 5tph with the extra tph being 12-car. Which means more vehicles needing to start in service from Cambridge in the morning - the only addition to stabling provision being conversion of Reception Road 3.

 

[bramling]

Suspect that's related to stabling space at Cambridge - need to feed stock into service from Hornsey as there's only so much space at Cambridge CSD - Cambridge's peak direction service having gone from 4tph to 5tph with the extra tph being 12-car. Which means more vehicles needing to start in service from Cambridge in the morning - the only addition to stabling provision being conversion of Reception Road 3.

Is there any plan to enhance the stabling at Cambridge? I notice there’s also a pair of 387s which run empty to and from Letchworth for stabling each night, which is also presumably for the same reason.

Not that I’m complaining about having a completely empty train, but it does make me laugh hearing about how vital the 700s are to avoid people being left behind!

What does irritate more is the way journeys have become slower since May. It’s the exception now to have a completely unchecked run, especially on the down - and this seems to apply pretty much any time of day. There always seems to be something in the way somewhere, if not something late out of the core then something else! It ought to be possible to at least match 1990s 317 timings at 0530 in the morning...

 

[TheDavibob]

Is there any plan to enhance the stabling at Cambridge?

Yes there is. There's a recent application from NR for bringing an arch of Mill Road bridge into service for extra sidings:
https://idox.cambridge.gov.uk/onlin...ils.do?activeTab=summary&keyVal=PE6J6DDX06P00

Not exactly sure what the railway plans are, but it might be in the associated docs, I'll look.

 

[bramling]

Probably are. Stevenage and Hitchin are the only 2 stops with a reasonable core timetable.

I guess going south it is easier just to grab what comes along. more of a risk going north if something goes wrong. Good for those that can use it. Nice quiet train while those on the kings cross route are rammed in like sardines

Depends on how you define reasonable!

For Hitchin and Stevenage it's currently three trains per hour, at intervals of 15, 30, 15, with some of these missing at arbitrary times throughout the day. Then you have the issue that the timekeeping of the northbound service is erratic thanks to the Thameslink effect, which even with this level of frequency means you could well be in store for a quite lengthy wait on a core platform if something is amiss.

The alternative is to head to King's Cross, where at least there's more options for things to do if having to wait (e.g. cafes and restaurants), plus the chances are that the train will be waiting in the platform prior to departure so one can at least settle in to the train rather than having to stand on a platform or sit on a metal bench - not that an Undesiro is much better of course!

Add in the prospect of the 365 services at certain times and it's easy to see why people might prefer to opt for King's Cross. Any core station other than St Pancras is simply a gamble as if something goes wrong one hasn't got access to the stopping service.

Naturally the scales may tip slightly when (if!) the 700/0 services run through to Sevenoaks / Maidstone, and the second Cambridge/Brighton service would certainly even things up. That service will definitely take people off the up stopping service.

As to whether the above ThamesLink/ Lottery constitutes a reasonable service, I'll leave that to readers to decide for themselves...

Meanwhile, let's think back a couple of years. One would turn up at King's Cross, check the board, head to the platform, where a 365 would be waiting, comfortable seat and table whilst awaiting departure, then a fast and comfortable journey to destination. No fuss, no bother! (And certainly didn't run the risk of taking 50 minutes to get to Finsbury Park either...). The only thing which might have been nicer in those days was no 4-car working, which we could have had but for platform extensions at Meldreth Shepreth and Foxton and a few extra units in the fleet.