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Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

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Downthelane

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I am quite amblivious about first class, I will be compensated for that but the lack of trains to KGX is my main beef.

For 25 years I have not needed to take a tube unless I wanted to.

Anyway a taxi to St Albans and a direct service seems to be the only Plan B.
 
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HH

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But it wasn't an even internal service before and it's not a clockface timetable after. GTR runs 3600 trains per day and provides nearly 25% of UK rail journeys (allegedly) so it's a rather bigger challenge than most operators. Pretty much all their services have to deal with the chaos of London commuter journeys.

It's not an easy franchise. But given that, what is amazing is that NR didn't seem to keep timetable experts, and it's not clear that GTR actually understand the scale and complexity of the service they provide (or if they are, they aren't up to delivering it)
Unfortunately timetable planners do not grow on trees. There are a number of freelancers and those employed by various consultants, but they're usually engaged in bids, franchise change and other projects. Plus there's always going to be a learning curve.

What is questionable is whether they should have, given the unprecedented nature of the change, allowed for extra resource and extra time. The problem is this macho "can do" culture wouldn't let anyone admit that they were going to struggle. Have made the same mistake myself. I learned from my mistake, but I'm not convinced that DfT/NR/GTR have.
 
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SPADTrap

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The cancellations aren't limited to GTR either because when I can't get into London due to their service the intercity I'm supposed to drive north doesn't leave either. I must commend the resilience of the commuter. I'm starting to break already and I've not been doing it long.
 

Class 466

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The timetable from the 15th July has started appearing on RTT now, so far I’ve seen the following:

Luton - Rainham (Hourly)
Kentish Town - Orpington (Peak Only)

Oh and just as I arrive at STP, there’s a 20 minute gap through the core... :rolleyes:
 

47421

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At the end of the day it’s DFT’s project. They’re the sponsor, and it’s they who have specified things like the services to be operated, the stations to be served, and of course the rolling stock. They chose to amalgamate four different service groups (all of which have been stand-alone franchises at various times) into one mega-franchise, and it’s they who selected Govia. It’s they who have failed to plan something which was able to be smoothly and seamlessly introduced, and they who have clearly totally failed to monitor progress and make a correct decision as to whether the project was in a state where it could reliably go live, and perhaps they who have failed to identify “red flags” which should surely have cropped up over the last year or two. Ultimately, and arguably, it is they who have designed, specified, tried and failed to implement something which many have seen as destined for failure, for various reasons which I won’t repeat here, but which boil down to trying to impose something on an infrastructure which isn’t capable of operating the planned service robustly. *If* some of the timetabling issues are down to Network Rail, then again that ultimately boils down to the DFT, and again whether they should have gone live when they did.

As for GTR, they come over as a sloppy operator. Things went downhill almost from the day they took over. Their employee relations seems to be dire, and most concerningly their management seems completely disconnected from reality, it’s astounding that they predicted “minimal impact” a day or two before the launch day, or that things would settle down “quickly”. Post launch their handling of the situation has again been poor, although given the scale of the shambles it’s hard to say whether another operator may have done better - but again the quality of the communications coming out from senior level has been absolutely dire, again pointing to an organisation where the top simply don’t have a grip on what’s going on under their feet. I suspect there’s a lot more to come out over time as to whether GTR did raise red flags in the period leading up to launch day, and without knowing exactly what did and didn’t happen it’s hard to judge further - this will be something which will be very interesting to hear about if and when it does come out in the wash!

Clearly DfT must take a significant share of the blame, for all the reasons noted above. But the current mess is also largely down to GTR. The main problem today is lack of drivers with necessary route and traction knowledge. And it is clear that GTR were basically winging it when it came to driver training. After May 20 DfT and GTR attributed problems to the late delivery of the timetable by NR, but as time goes by it is clear that even if they had received final timetable say t-12 they would still not have been able to operate it, as evidenced by the fact that when challenged by London Assembly GTR flatly refused to indicate when the situation might be stabilised.

And the crisis management by GTR has been awful. Again today train shown as stopping Arsley, again shown on fast line on Tracksy, again when challenged on twitter passengers assured it would stop and again runs fast. How can this happen 6 weeks in? Last week 2 KX-Camb services cancelled, stops added on next, driver refuses them as reported on twitter by passengers who heard the driver on the platform because he had to "get home to do school pick up".
 

Failed Unit

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The timetable from the 15th July has started appearing on RTT now, so far I’ve seen the following:

Luton - Rainham (Hourly)
Kentish Town - Orpington (Peak Only)

Oh and just as I arrive at STP, there’s a 20 minute gap through the core... :rolleyes:

Experience will tell us don’t believe anything on RTT until the 15th July. I remember the pain we went through trying to match up the railplan timetables with real-time in May.
 

notverydeep

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Ignore the rubbish previously posted here - I was reading the Real Time Trains Sunday timetable and thinking it referred to Monday!!
 
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philjo

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One thing is apparent, even from a cursory look - at least for GN this is a somewhat different timetable, rather than just a more consistent and evenly spread set of planned cancellations as I had previously assumed it would be. There are some trains that did not appear in either the May 20th timetable or the consultation versions of the final timetable, such as a new 1C11 0728 Cambridge - King's Cross semi-fast. The Cambridge slows that appear, seem to have different headcodes and timings. The 2YXX WGC to King's Cross trains don't appear to have been uploaded and nor have any AM peak trains between GN and the core. Inevitably, there is no sign of an 08:22 fast(ish) WGC to King's Cross! Hopefully to be uploaded in the coming days, but I am not holding my breath...

I can't see any obvious changes on RTT at the moment. The 1C11 0728 Cambridge - King's Cross semi-fast is the same service that ran yesterday. 15 July is a sunday and it looks to be the same as the planned timetable that was scheduled yesterday. Monday 16th seems to be the same peak timetable which doesn't actually run at the moment!

Lots of cancellations towards Cambridge this morning
 

notverydeep

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I can't see any obvious changes on RTT at the moment. The 1C11 0728 Cambridge - King's Cross semi-fast is the same service that ran yesterday. 15 July is a sunday and it looks to be the same as the planned timetable that was scheduled yesterday. Monday 16th seems to be the same peak timetable which doesn't actually run at the moment!

Lots of cancellations towards Cambridge this morning

Doh! User error - I was looking at Sunday as if it was a Monday. I could always think before posting! :oops:
 

Failed Unit

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And still no explanation of why there are such gaps.

And also to what happened this morning?

That is interesting by it absence. It gets people thinking.

1.it wasn’t a network rail issue as they would be posting that everywhere.

I am guessing a train failed in the Finsbury Park area. As if nothing got north it can’t return. Lots of the miners lost lots of time going north through Finsbury Park. Understand when they got to WGC. No drivers to take them south again.
 

A0

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No trains from HAT with screens not reflecting what Live Departures is saying. Utter confusion and anger growing.

Shut the door on the way out Grant....

Yes, because of course it's all the MP's fault. And I lived in the area during the time of his useless predecessor, the hapless Melanie Johnson who did precisely nothing for Welwyn Hatfield from her home in Cambridge. Shapps does at least live in the constituency.
 

Mikey C

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In any other circumstances, there would be massive political pressure on Grayling, especially after his botched initial attempt to lay all the blame on Network Rail and exonerate the private operator GTR and the DfT.

However we live in strange times, when maintaining the Brexit balance in the cabinet is the most important thing!
 

jon0844

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I am quite amblivious about first class, I will be compensated for that but the lack of trains to KGX is my main beef.

For 25 years I have not needed to take a tube unless I wanted to.

Anyway a taxi to St Albans and a direct service seems to be the only Plan B.

You can use your season ticket to travel on a Uno or Arriva bus to St Albans. Either the 300/301 or Uno 601 and 602 buses (plus others).
 

jon0844

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Yes, because of course it's all the MP's fault. And I lived in the area during the time of his useless predecessor, the hapless Melanie Johnson who did precisely nothing for Welwyn Hatfield from her home in Cambridge. Shapps does at least live in the constituency.

Grant is definitely getting involved. He has a reason to. He's affected by the new timetable. Not just the disruption but the loss of services calling at Brookmans Park where he lives (hence his letter from TfL that singled out Brookmans Park as a station that would see improvements if London Overground took over).

He has posted this morning that the DfT has the papers almost ready to allow it to take over after the 15th if things don't improve. I can't see how the DfT would want to take over, rather than sit back and let GTR continue to implement what it set out to do, and if it did then what happens then? The problems don't go away and then Chris Grayling really will be in the firing line.

So any bets on whether the DfT really does step in later this month?
 

notverydeep

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Having now selected the correct day - I have looked through the AM Peak timetable on Real Time Trains and compared it with the original May 20th timetable for trains leaving Welwyn Garden City from the start of traffic (that is the 0400 to King's Cross) up to 1000, plus the PM Peak 1600 to 2000 at WGC.

Still Missing on Monday 16th July and subsequently are the 0500 and 0702 from WGC to King's Cross and the 0657 from Cambridge to King's Cross (0752 from WGC). Northbound there is still no 0826 Cambridge train (0751 from King's Cross). All of the trains to Moorgate appear to be listed.

Missing in the PM Peak are the 1551 and 1751 from King's Cross (the 1626 and 1826 from WGC to Cambridge). The 1530 from Moorgate (WGC 1618) is missing, as are the 1853 and 1953 from WGC to Moorgate. Finally, the 1744 Cambridge North - King's Cross (1852 from WGC) is also missing. This latter train has been one of the deleted but sometimes runs trains so far.

Interestingly, the 1852 from WGC (2C55) did run at least Wednesday and Thursday last week, but starting at Royston and making use of the set that would normally be 3R58 1820 ECS from Royston to KGX, having worked 1R48, the 1724 King's Cross to Royston, scheduled to return to work the 1957 King's Cross to Baldock. If 2C55 is to be planned cancellation in the interim timetable, it isn't obvious to me why this couldn't be the ongoing arrangement, which would be very helpful for returning WGC to Stevenage commuters, facing tedious replacement buses at present. It also provides a welcome return of class 365s to WGC, one albeit very limited step in Bramling's desired direction!

I would be surprised if any of the missing trains are still to be uploaded. If the above turns out to be the plan and is consistently achieved, then I suspect the number of tales of woe from WGC to this forum would diminish considerably. It does come to something when eight planned peak (plus two more shoulder) cancellations counts as success!
 

OwenB

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Seems ridiculous to remove the 17.51 KGX service, but I noticed that too. Busy service for people who finish work at 17.30.
 

bramling

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Grant is definitely getting involved. He has a reason to. He's affected by the new timetable. Not just the disruption but the loss of services calling at Brookmans Park where he lives (hence his letter from TfL that singled out Brookmans Park as a station that would see improvements if London Overground took over).

He has posted this morning that the DfT has the papers almost ready to allow it to take over after the 15th if things don't improve. I can't see how the DfT would want to take over, rather than sit back and let GTR continue to implement what it set out to do, and if it did then what happens then? The problems don't go away and then Chris Grayling really will be in the firing line.

So any bets on whether the DfT really does step in later this month?

I tend to agree with all of the above. Why take on all the accountability for something which by now they know is turning into an embarrassing shambles? Unless of course there's been a fall-out behind the scenes.

Whilst I'd have betted my life savings, pension and assets on the new timetable being a shambles (albeit perhaps not *quite* as bad as it's turned out to be!), I think it's very hard to predict where things will go from here. Even if 15th July goes well, it still doesn't deliver the full timetable, and the prospect of that - let alone a reliable and dependable service - seems as far away as ever.

Perhaps if there isn't a reliable service by the end of July then something may *have* to happen. Both Shapps and McPartland must have in the back of their mind that (1) an election could happen at short notice, (2) what happened at the last election, and (3) both their constituencies were red at times during the Blair years. Having said that I tend to agree that rail service is unlikely to make that much difference in a general election, unless the MP makes such a bad hash of things - although MPs have been elected on false promises before, like a certain Justine Greening promised to "sort out the District Line" - really?!
 

bramling

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It also provides a welcome return of class 365s to WGC, one albeit very limited step in Bramling's desired direction!

I like your thinking on this!

365s have already broken loose over the last month. They've appeared at weekends, been to Ely, and stopped at places no longer booked like Welwyn GC and Hatfield, and by and large their services have run reliably except where delayed by other services or extra stops. We also seem to have two odd-numbered units still running, although not sure whether this is permanent.
 

Aictos

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The DfT coming in and taking over is not likely going to make it better especially as they have had a major part in delivering this disruption alongside both Network Rail and GTR.

There needs to be a new team in charge at GTR who actually can get a grip on issues here and show they can actually deliver a service, having multiple boards to monitor the service isn't working so just have one team a partnership if you like of GTR and Network Rail to get things under control.

That said, is it not possible for the DfT to hive off the GN Metro routes early and hand them over to London Overground either to start straight away or have GTR manage them? By this I mean by May 2019 by which date the entire Class 717 fleet should be in service.
 

mmh

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Not everything TFL touches turns to gold, they're currently cancelling over two thirds of the TfL Rail Paddington to Heathrow service.

(Nit-pick: LOROL was replaced by Arriva Rail London as the operator of London Overground)
 

kw12

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That said, is it not possible for the DfT to hive off the GN Metro routes early and hand them over to London Overground either to start straight away or have GTR manage them? By this I mean by May 2019 by which date the entire Class 717 fleet should be in service.
I can't see why GTR managing these services for London Overground would be any better than the same company continuing to manage them for DfT.

If these services were to be handed over to London Overground then London Overground could presumably choose to:
(1) add these services to the current London Overground concession, operated by Arriva Rail London, if it could agree an acceptable price with Arriva Rail London
(2) invite tenders for operation of these services until the end of the current concession (2024), award a concession specifically for these services (need not be the same operator as for the existing concession) and then add these services to a combined concession to start when the existing and new concessions end.
(3) operate these services directly itself, until the end of the current concession (2024) and then add them to the scope of the next concession.
 

Failed Unit

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Seems ridiculous to remove the 17.51 KGX service, but I noticed that too. Busy service for people who finish work at 17.30.

Not sure about you experience but I find the 1751 is cancelled more often then it runs. (Just like 0652 or 557 from Cambridge)

Even now you have a gut feeling about the common ones they cancel every day.
 

OwenB

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Not sure about you experience but I find the 1751 is cancelled more often then it runs. (Just like 0652 or 557 from Cambridge)

Even now you have a gut feeling about the common ones they cancel every day.
Unfortunately I never quite get to King's Cross in time. I used to catch it at a previous job when it was the good old 17.52 and was very well used.
 

class387

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Really bad this morning (~7:45) at Hatfield. No Moorgate services ran at all. There was an 'extra' train at around 7:50, an 8-car 365 to Kings Cross, but it was already full and many were unable to board. Next train, the 8:07, was also full - the train loading indicator was red in all eight coaches. Most passengers at Potters Bar were unable to board this. No explanation given for any of this.

For me today was the worst day since 21st May. It is now the seventh week. I don't understand why Moorgate trains didn't run - it's not as if drivers need new training for them.
 

Aictos

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Really bad this morning (~7:45) at Hatfield. No Moorgate services ran at all. There was an 'extra' train at around 7:50, an 8-car 365 to Kings Cross, but it was already full and many were unable to board. Next train, the 8:07, was also full - the train loading indicator was red in all eight coaches. Most passengers at Potters Bar were unable to board this. No explanation given for any of this.

For me today was the worst day since 21st May. It is now the seventh week. I don't understand why Moorgate trains didn't run - it's not as if drivers need new training for them.

Maybe the drivers were on other duties such as learning the route between East Croydon and Finsbury Park?

Or maybe they're trying to get the next batch of trainees passed out ASAP?

Also since when did the 365s have train loading indicators? I thought it was only the 700s that had this along with the 717s presumably?
 

Failed Unit

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Maybe the drivers were on other duties such as learning the route between East Croydon and Finsbury Park?

Or maybe they're trying to get the next batch of trainees passed out ASAP?

Also since when did the 365s have train loading indicators? I thought it was only the 700s that had this along with the 717s presumably?
You would hope that even GTR wouldn’t cancel every peak service in the morning to proirise driver training they should have completed months ago. . I am guessing that a train failed in the Finsbury Park area which meant no services from Moorgate could get to Welwyn Garden City to return south. I speculate this because if it was say a signal failure on the Moorgate branch GTR would be shouting everywhere that the service was disrupted because of a network rail accountable issue. As the issue was likely to be a GTR accountable issue much better to say nothing and treat passengers with the contempt we have grown to expect out of them.

The poster mentions 2 trains. They couldn’t board the first. (2x 365s). The 2nd was 700 formed.

I don’t think that the inners and outers share crew. Which is why during this shambles the are generally the only trains running from WGC and south of.
 

notverydeep

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Also since when did the 365s have train loading indicators? I thought it was only the 700s that had this along with the 717s presumably?

I suspect this refers to the second train indicated, the 0807 which would have been 2Y15 0802 Welwyn Garden City to King's Cross, which is a 700. This was just behind 1R07 0712 Baldock to London Kings Cross which stopped additionally at WGC, Hatfield and Finsbury Park (and presumably Stevenage) in place of the missing trains and it is this that would have been 2 x 365.
 

OwenB

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Not sure about you experience but I find the 1751 is cancelled more often then it runs. (Just like 0652 or 557 from Cambridge)

Even now you have a gut feeling about the common ones they cancel every day.
And the 17.51 ran and the 18.06 was cancelled. F***ers.
 

class387

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I suspect this refers to the second train indicated, the 0807 which would have been 2Y15 0802 Welwyn Garden City to King's Cross, which is a 700. This was just behind 1R07 0712 Baldock to London Kings Cross which stopped additionally at WGC, Hatfield and Finsbury Park (and presumably Stevenage) in place of the missing trains and it is this that would have been 2 x 365.
Correct.
 
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