Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[stut]

Can't they just log on to traksy?

 

[notverydeep]

Skip this post if you would rather not read another tale of woe from Welwyn Garden City! To be fair it wasn't all down to the timetable / GTR...

We just can't win. No sign of the 0727 Cambridge - King's Cross running, so I got to the station so that if the 0738 Royston - King's Cross which has sporadically been an additional stop at 0809 (in practice 5 - 8 minutes later) and only just missed the 0802 King's Cross (2Y15) which left about 5 minutes late. Clearly complaints about crowding and / or late running have had an effect, as it wasn't advertised and didn't stop. No option but the slow option, the 0824 Moorgate (2K37) as the 0832 King's Cross (2Y17) was again cancelled.

No sign of further problems until just after Potters Bar when I noticed on Open Train Times map that 2Y15 had been stopped at New Barnet for 20 minutes with the 0808 WGC - Moorgate (2K34) a berth behind. Behind us was a mystery ECS marked 5K01, no idea what that was. 2Y15 was eventually on the move 29 late, but by now trying to shift the load of two 700s (2Y15 and 2Y17) and two Moorgates (2K34 and 2K37)! Unsurprisingly it lost more time at each subsequent stop. It eventually reached KGX 49 late! 2K34 (wedged) and 2K37 eventually arrived at Finsbury Park running parallel. Cue further passenger pandemonium as 2K37 had the road to overtake 2K34, which the station staff clearly suspected would be diverted to King's Cross. 2K37 departs and almost immediately 2K34 does indeed get the route to King's Cross. Fortunate for me, but hundreds got off to wait for the following (presumably busy) Moorgate. Arrival into King's Cross finally achieved at 0935 and a two hour journey to my office near Blackfriars...

So what should I have done? Wait for the 0852 (2C15 0757 Cambridge - King's Cross) from WGC that's what. It got the fast line at Potters Bar and sailed serenely past all the above problems and beat the poor passengers on 2Y15 to King's Cross by some minutes and arriving a minute early...

Even then the suffering didn't end for some. Having reached King's Cross 49 late, the 700 appears to have formed its booked working back, the 0851 to Cambridge North (2C10) 44 late, but running non stop to Cambridge. Hopefully tonight's journey and subsequent journeys will not be worthy of adding to this thread!!

 

[jon0844]

5K01 was actually a 700 with a headcode for Moorgate. It did in fact go to Hornsey. Imagine if the signaller didn't realise and put it down to Moorgate! It later returned to WGC sidings as 5K02.

The 0802 had a fault with the doors and sat down at New Barnet for some time, creating a long queue behind and further delays with return workings to WGC.

Other than that, bar two missing Moorgate trains before the 0802/0808, almost everything ran this morning.

 

[jon0844]

Can't they just log on to traksy?

Presumably the same feed.

 

[jellybaby]

2Y15 had been stopped at New Barnet for 20 minutes

Train was crush loaded, as a result of the previous two being cancelled, with people on the platform who couldn't get on. Then the doors in coach 6 wouldn't close properly and had to be attended to by the driver a couple of times. While this was all going on most of the rest of the doors were closed and it seems someone pulled the alarm after getting bored waiting which had to be reset by the driver so further delay.

Interestingly there were two members of staff on board, the driver and a gentleman in matching uniform who at one point made an announcement from the rear cab. Perhaps on his way south to start driving something else? I expect he was late for that

2K34 does indeed get the route to King's Cross. Fortunate for me, but hundreds got off to wait for the following (presumably busy) Moorgate

I wasn't impressed. 2J41 arrived from Gordon Hill and wasn't too busy.

68 minute delay for me by the time it was all over.

 

[43094]

Re. Not knowing where some trains are (General point, not GTR specific):

It can happen, especially during significant disruption (which at the moment is pretty much all day / every day for GTR) and with only one pair of hands on a desk.

If in doubt, it does pay to check... I certainly know of (general) occasions where things have been described wrongly / the Controller has just had too much to do, and has had to ring the crew and ask - the occasional instance can and does happen, and probably always will until either a) resources are increased or b) major disruption is eliminated.

 

[philjo]

Local papers are reporting that School children returning home from Cambridge yesterday ended up in Kings cross as the train failed to stop as Ashwell & Morden and went non-stop after Royston to Kings Cross
https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/ne...ink-great-northern-timetable-trouble-14842260

Parents were outraged after their children were left stranded at King's Cross station last night following a timetable issue.

Students from the Stephen Perse School were due to return home shortly after 6pm, however a timetable error meant they were taken to Kings Cross Station instead.

One mum told Cambridgeshire Live her daughter didn’t get home until about 9pm following the mistake.

The group boarded the train just before 6pm in Cambridge, having checked with staff it would be stopping at Ashwell station.

Once the train got to Royston, it was announced it would not be stopping again until Knebworth.

However at Knebworth, the train sailed past that station and continued all the way to London King's Cross.
Concerned mum, Anna Hill told Cambridgeshire Live: “You trust your daughter is getting the train home from school, as she has hundreds of times before and she ends up in King's Cross in London 60 odd miles away from where she needs to be.

“I was shocked and disgusted that this had happened.

"I don’t even let my daughter go to London with a group of friends at the weekend. She is 14, she is too young and she’s used to living in a small rural village.

“You feel a bit powerless, because your child is on the train and there’s nothing you can do."
A Govia Thameslink spokesman said: "We are extremely sorry for the confusion and concern caused to passengers and their families when a train ran non-stop from Royston to King's Cross at short notice yesterday evening, and are investigating how this came to happen."

The new Thameslink timetable has been plagued with problems since it was introduced in May.

We previously reported, children have been unable to get to school on time following the new changes which cut some peak services.

Thameslink previously acknowledged the problems and put in contingency measures such as bus replacement services on the routes where a high number of students had been affected.

And the saga all unfolded at a time when many pupils were sitting exams.
Ashwell parents were so concerned they banded together to ensure there was always someone on hand to take the pupils to school should their trains be disrupted or cancelled.

Mrs Hill said: “I am prepared to accept that trains will be late from time to time, but to have them so disrupted every day is not acceptable

“Over the exam period, girls and boys are stressed enough anyway. A lot rides on them performing well and so to have an impacted service which lets them down is an added stress and one which they shouldn’t have to think about."

Mrs Hill claimed one of the girls who was left stranded in London last night, had experienced disruption to her train this morning (Thursday, June 28) which put a school trip in jeopardy.
BBC reporter Tom Edwards said: "It’s not really a train service anymore it’s an embarrassment."

Heidi Allen also tweeted it was "utterly unacceptable."

"I'm speechless." The MP wrote.

 

[Bishopstone]

Local papers are reporting that School children returning home from Cambridge yesterday ended up in Kings cross as the train failed to stop as Ashwell & Morden and went non-stop after Royston to Kings Cross

A group of teenage mates... no parents.... warm summer evening... bright lights, big city. Parent Ms Hill may have been ‘shocked and disgusted’, but I suspect her daughter and friends will be sanguine about the experience.

 

[sefton]

Apparently everything now declassified for the foreseeable future (not that there have been any RPIs since May).

 

[Steve Harris]

Local papers are reporting that School children returning home from Cambridge yesterday ended up in Kings cross as the train failed to stop as Ashwell & Morden and went non-stop after Royston to Kings Cross
https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/ne...ink-great-northern-timetable-trouble-14842260

A segment has just been aired on BBC local news about the above news story.

 

[gingerheid]

If they don't know where trains are then it's going to be difficult for then to properly organise maintenance

 

[Surreytraveller]

If they don't know where trains are then it's going to be difficult for then to properly organise maintenance

Which means once the drivers are all trained up, they'll be a load more cancellations due to maintenance requirements

 

[HughT]

A segment has just been aired on BBC local news about the above news story.

I saw that story on the Cambridge News website earlier this evening. But I can't find the relevant train on RTT. It has to be a train that picked up in Cambridge, called at Royston, and didn't call at Ashwell or Knebworth. Leaving CBG around 1800 on Weds (I also checked Tues, just in case). Any ideas??

 

[bramling]

Apparently everything now declassified for the foreseeable future (not that there have been any RPIs since May).

Another MP scoring some cheap publicity. I’m not sure bumfights for the nicest seats is necessarily going to prove helpful. I suppose it’s more useful than McPartland “securing” extra calls for his constituents on what are already the most crowded and shortest services. Kudos to any MP who actually manages to do anything towards restoring a reliable rail service for his area!

One wonders if this could cause more damage in the longer term, as it now gives GTR the opportunity to reclassify *all* first class when/if they ever achieve a service which could be called normal. A lot of people seem rather glad of the declassified first on the undesiros.

 

[jon0844]

My MP is making loads of claims too. Everyone wants to be seen as the person who fixed things and make out they've done it all behind the scenes, as if nobody else had even noticed there was a problem.

I think first class has been considered declassified for weeks. Ever since GTR took things to a now seemingly permanent CSL 2 level.

 

[OwenB]

The Twitter team are now happily giving out the date of 15th July for when the new emergency timetable/greater reliability/better service* will be starting. I'm not sure I can go through another two weeks of this and even when the 15th rolls around, I can't see there being significant improvements. I guess it staves off some of the complaints for a while, but feels like kicking the can down the road. What a mess.

*delete as appropriate

 

[Agent_Squash]

My MP is making loads of claims too. Everyone wants to be seen as the person who fixed things and make out they've done it all behind the scenes, as if nobody else had even noticed there was a problem.

I think first class has been considered declassified for weeks. Ever since GTR took things to a now seemingly permanent CSL 2 level.

It’s almost like the crisis was designed to get MPs looking like they are doing something!

 

[HH]

For interest. If they had done a driver training program would it be more efficient.

I am thinking now that a Peterborough- Horsham service may have 3 drivers with changes at Finsbury Park and London Bridge.

If GTR were a decent TOC and had trained Peterborough and Horsham drivers end to end would the requirement for drivers be significantly reduced?

The time for Peterborough to Horsham is 2 hours 44 (looking at the 09:54 as reference). Driving there and back, allowing for turnround and PNB and the driver can't do much else. Based on what they've done elsewhere, I bet that GTR don't even want that, but may have agreed it with the drivers, because drivers like to drive a mix of routes, because it's more interesting.

So, actually the answer is, probably not, as it would actually reduce efficiency. The actual problem is not so much that not all drivers have all the route knowledge that has been agreed (not that they need, which would be rather different), but that roster links (rosters are set up so that there is a line for every driver in that roster and they go through them in order, so if you have number 20 this week, you will drive 21 next) have mixed knowledge. This leads to the position that each week there will be numerous lines where the driver allocated doesn't have the knowledge to actually drive every diagram, which leads to all sorts of problems as they "rob Peter to pay Paul". Because of rostering rules (designed to prevent fatigue) you can't do simple things like straight swaps and therefore inevitably they have to use Rest Day Working where they can and cancel where they can't.

It is complex and difficult, so avoiding this situation is the best policy. If you know you are not going to be able to train all drivers in time, then you need to train specific links, so that this situation doesn't arise. That however, would require both organisational and planning skills and it would also have to be agreed with the drivers. I don't think GTR is capable of any of those things.

 

[jon0844]

Saw some 365s being dragged south today (501 and 505). Are these Scotrail trains or trains from Ely? They were devoid of GN logos.

 

[Failed Unit]

The time for Peterborough to Horsham is 2 hours 44 (looking at the 09:54 as reference). Driving there and back, allowing for turnround and PNB and the driver can't do much else. Based on what they've done elsewhere, I bet that GTR don't even want that, but may have agreed it with the drivers, because drivers like to drive a mix of routes, because it's more interesting.

So, actually the answer is, probably not, as it would actually reduce efficiency. The actual problem is not so much that not all drivers have all the route knowledge that has been agreed (not that they need, which would be rather different), but that roster links (rosters are set up so that there is a line for every driver in that roster and they go through them in order, so if you have number 20 this week, you will drive 21 next) have mixed knowledge. This leads to the position that each week there will be numerous lines where the driver allocated doesn't have the knowledge to actually drive every diagram, which leads to all sorts of problems as they "rob Peter to pay Paul". Because of rostering rules (designed to prevent fatigue) you can't do simple things like straight swaps and therefore inevitably they have to use Rest Day Working where they can and cancel where they can't.

It is complex and difficult, so avoiding this situation is the best policy. If you know you are not going to be able to train all drivers in time, then you need to train specific links, so that this situation doesn't arise. That however, would require both organisational and planning skills and it would also have to be agreed with the drivers. I don't think GTR is capable of any of those things.

Thanks for this reply very informative. Yes you are not going to get many end to end Peterborough to Horsham runs in a shift.

Sadly today the inners are suffering as well today. This morning they struggled to run anything into Kx from WGC.

 

[bramling]

Saw some 365s being dragged south today (501 and 505). Are these Scotrail trains or trains from Ely? They were devoid of GN logos.

They were on route from Ely to Northampton. Not sure what for.

 

[gingerheid]

The chaos seems to be spreading; the KL / Ely fasts seems to be in on the party too now.

 

[Bishopstone]

The first class declassification policy is oddly constructed.

If I board an 06.29 at Brighton, that’s pre-peak and I can’t use first class with a standard ticket. But if I board the same train at Preston Park at 06.33, that’s peak and I can use first class through to Bedford, right?

They’re not going to enforce first class until service levels improve, so they should blanket declassify until then. The confusing partial concession makes it appear they (GTR and DFT) have been bounced into this action reluctantly, by a few MPs unilaterally announcing it. Which may well be the case....

 

[jon0844]

I think the times are more about qualifying for a refund, including season ticket holders, but it is rather confusing.

In reality I think there will be a significant grace period either side of the peak.

 

[southern442]

is this emergency timetable (or the run up to it) the reason behind swathes of thameslink trains from brighton no longer running? i've also noticed a tendency to have seemingly random hourly gaps between otherwise half-hourly services. apologies if this has been previously answered but i'm genuinely really mad and just needed to vent my frustration a bit.

 

[FOH]

The TL service plan seems to have dissolved into a further level of chaos in the last couple of days - managed chaos, thanks to the overwhelming dedication of a lot of staff

Sounds at least though like morale’s back on its way up if staff are going the extra mile

 

[westcoaster]

Thanks for this reply very informative. Yes you are not going to get many end to end Peterborough to Horsham runs in a shift.

Sadly today the inners are suffering as well today. This morning they struggled to run anything into Kx from WGC.

From what I have seen drivers are doing end to end (shorter day) and end to end with a trip to three bridges or Gatwick in the middle. I know some Brighton drivers are doing 2 return trips to Finsbury park and so on. So a right mix of up and downs

 

[jon0844]

The inners had lot of issues today. Some train faults but mostly driver shortages (drivers at WGC but no driver for return working, and they were ending their shift). For a couple of hours almost there wasn't a single train south, destroying the idea of turning up and taking a slow train as a failsafe method of getting to London.

 

[MML]

is this emergency timetable (or the run up to it) the reason behind swathes of thameslink trains from brighton no longer running? i've also noticed a tendency to have seemingly random hourly gaps between otherwise half-hourly services. apologies if this has been previously answered but i'm genuinely really mad and just needed to vent my frustration a bit.

I'm not sure of the reasons but I have noticed:

1. Lots of drivers still being accompanied by a second driver on the Bedford to Brighton line. I'm surprise this is route learning, unless they are new drivers or have simply still to learn the route via London Bridge. I did notice prior to the timetable change Northbound services were running via London Bridge yet Southbound services were not. Perhaps route learning is still an issue with insufficient drivers having knowledge of Southbound routes via London Bridge ?

2. A significant number of Brighton services are being cancelled. Those services to East Grinstead and Gatwick Airport are running. Even the Peterborough to Horsham services are now making an appearance. It seems to run the new services to East Grinstead and Peterborough, they no longer have enough drivers to operate to Brighton, a route which has operated successfully for years. So much so that indicator boards showing trains for the next hour don't even display when the next Brighton service will operate. I suppose they just expect passengers to change at East Croydon or Gatwick Airport to continue their journey.

3. There are now regular, scheduled 15 to 20 minute gaps between services running through the Core. This is even before a train appears as a short notice cancellation on the indicator board. So much for this new technology which allows trains to run every 2 to 3 minutes. The frequency of trains through the Core appears to have reduced since the timetable change in May.

I do wonder whether the whole scheduling and train crew system is now in such a meltdown, that they are no longer even able to utilise those drivers and trains they do have effectively. I suspect there are more drivers turning up to find no train, a train turning up to find no driver and drivers dead heading left right and centre just to desperately keep the show on the road. Having closed driver depots such as Blackfriars, I don't believe some of the planned new locations are operative yet. The new two-storey air-conditioned executive Porta-cabin at Luton hasn't even been fitted out.

And I just wish they would turn off the half-hourly crackling 'See it, Say it, Sort it' voice over the PA. It crackles away like a constipated Dalek and even obliterates useful announcements such as next stations stops. I've been sorely tempted to phone BTP and tell them the Thameslink train service doesn't look right.
I have to say drivers are doing well by making broadcasts when the PIS either isn't functioning or when the train is held at signals for a period of time.

 

[Steve Harris]

Sounds at least though like morale’s back on its way up if staff are going the extra mile

I certainly wouldn't say that.

After a trip out today i have had a booking clerk agree with me that his employers are incompetent and i also over heard a driver saying 'do you want me to drive every f'in train' !

Not exactly what i would call good staff morale !!

Personally i think staff at the coal face are as fed up as us passengers.