Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[NorthKent1989]

Did you also plan this new "fantastic" timetable with Govia? Seems like it as you keep on bragging about how brilliant it is when in reality it's not!

I wonder that myself, bit of a company man by the sounds of his posts

No one has given a good reason why the Medway service won't work.

Its all "we need a fast link to interchanges" which is utterly laughable and not at all a good reason

I think several people have given perfectly good examples and reasons and personal experiences, several times over.

Most of what you've posted is utterly laughable!

I quite agree

 

[BRX]

There's an awful lot of effort being expended on this thread to explain why the new timetable fundamentally doesn't work and won't work. As if the current situation demonstrates this. But we know what the primary cause of the current situation is, do we not? Which is a lack of drivers. Or is this in dispute?

Seems to me that most of this discussion is purely speculation until the driver shortage has been resolved and we get to see how things work when there are enough people to actually attempt to operate the new timetable.

 

[JonathanH]

I really do wonder how much longer it is going to be permitted to carry on before they go back to the old timetable.

How do you propose they go back to the old timetable? Do they reverse all the changes to Southern timetables as well? Do Thameslink trains all go via Tulse Hill instead of London Bridge?

 

[jon0844]

How do you propose they go back to the old timetable? Do they reverse all the changes to Southern timetables as well? Do Thameslink trains all go via Tulse Hill instead of London Bridge?

I would have thought they could axe some of the extra services and just run the trains more akin to the old timetable. I doubt the times could change.

Get rid of the extra trains through the core that are the source of most of the problems and run TL as it was, GN as it was. I don't know about the additional trains to/from Kent.

Once you've got drivers ready, then revert to the new timetable and give things another shot.

 

[bramling]

How do you propose they go back to the old timetable? Do they reverse all the changes to Southern timetables as well? Do Thameslink trains all go via Tulse Hill instead of London Bridge?

I think it could be done on the GN side, as the VTEC/HT/GC service is only slightly tweaked from the old (it’s surprising how little change was required for these operators). I haven’t looked to see how easy it would fit in at Cambridge and Peterborough. Elsewhere I suspect the scale of the task would be too much. If GN was to revert then 3x services from the south per hour would need a solution - one of which could even be through the core, tip out at Finsbury Park then reverse via Hornsey DS2 or Bowes Park siding - if a driver can be found of course!

There would be the issue of having to devise crewing arrangements, and give the required notice to staff. This wouldn’t be a quick process.

Or the 3tph could just divert to KX, but some shuffling would likely be necessary to find platform space - as we have some long turnarounds for certain GTR services there now.

 

[JonathanH]

I would have thought they could axe some of the extra services and just run the trains more akin to the old timetable. I doubt the times could change.

Get rid of the extra trains through the core that are the source of most of the problems and run TL as it was, GN as it was. I don't know about the additional trains to/from Kent.

Once you've got drivers ready, then revert to the new timetable and give things another shot.

You would have some difficult choices to make south of the river. London Bridge low level doesn't have capacity to terminate all of the (theoretical) 10tph peak Thameslink service from East Croydon through London Bridge.

What do you cancel? The Thameslink services or some of the shorter distance Southern services.

 

[NorthKent1989]

You would have some difficult choices to make south of the river. London Bridge low level doesn't have capacity to terminate all of the (theoretical) 10tph peak Thameslink service from East Croydon through London Bridge.

What do you cancel? The Thameslink services or some of the shorter distance Southern services.

This should have been a back up plan, which of course there is none!

However you could send the Catford ones into the Blackfriars bay 2tph and the other 2tph could be sent into Victoria, the Rainham could be an extension of the new CX to Dartford via Woolwich in addition to the Sidcup semi fasts being extended 1tph to Rainham.

The “classic routes” Bedford to Brighton and Luton to Sutton/Wimbledon Loop could continue through the core.

There has to be an amendment somewhere down the line as this is becoming intolerable.

 

[hwl]

This should have been a back up plan, which of course there is none!

However you could send the Catford ones into the Blackfriars bay 2tph and the other 2tph could be sent into Victoria, the Rainham could be an extension of the new CX to Dartford via Woolwich in addition to the Sidcup semi fasts being extended 1tph to Rainham.

The “classic routes” Bedford to Brighton and Luton to Sutton/Wimbledon Loop could continue through the core.

There has to be an amendment somewhere down the line as this is becoming intolerable.

Except as Jonathan has pointed out it doesn't work due to terminating platform limitations. How would the other 2tph get to Victoria given there aren't the paths for them to do this?

 

[hwl]

I would have thought they could axe some of the extra services and just run the trains more akin to the old timetable. I doubt the times could change.

Get rid of the extra trains through the core that are the source of most of the problems and run TL as it was, GN as it was. I don't know about the additional trains to/from Kent.

Once you've got drivers ready, then revert to the new timetable and give things another shot.

Except TL can't be run as it was because they have split some of the old services with the 2 halves now being joined to different halves. E.g the Former Bedford- Three Bridges via Redhill has got extended to Horsham and the Southern end but is not joined to a Peterborough service instead of a Bedford service north of the core.

The new timetable will also be required to help provide driver training opportunities.

 

[bramling]

This should have been a back up plan, which of course there is none!

However you could send the Catford ones into the Blackfriars bay 2tph and the other 2tph could be sent into Victoria, the Rainham could be an extension of the new CX to Dartford via Woolwich in addition to the Sidcup semi fasts being extended 1tph to Rainham.

The “classic routes” Bedford to Brighton and Luton to Sutton/Wimbledon Loop could continue through the core.

There has to be an amendment somewhere down the line as this is becoming intolerable.

I hear there are posters up on lampposts in my local town centre encouraging people to lobby the local MP, and things like Twitter groups starting to be formed.

There is going to be pressure for some kind of compromise service, and I think over time that will become hard to ignore. The basic reality is that GN is not St Albans with its 8+tph service, and a more resilient solution needs to be found. Not all the seats are safe by any means, especially with an election by no means unlikely at any time.

 

[mmh]

The new timetable will also be required to help provide driver training opportunities.

Good lord, that's apologism and PR style nonsense-speak taken to a new level I didn't expect to see. "Driver training opportunities", really?

 

[NorthKent1989]

I hear there are posters up on lampposts in my local town centre encouraging people to lobby the local MP, and things like Twitter groups starting to be formed.

There is going to be pressure for some kind of compromise service, and I think over time that will become hard to ignore. The basic reality is that GN is not St Albans with its 8+tph service, and a more resilient solution needs to be found. Not all the seats are safe by any means, especially with an election by no means unlikely at any time.

That’s great news, the MPs need to be modem involved, I’m surprised more hasn’t been mentioned in the media about this, It’s times like this I wish passengers would perform their own strike and not pay for a ticket if you didn’t have one already, or something like that.

 

[hwl]

Good lord, that's apologism and PR style nonsense-speak taken to a new level I didn't expect to see. "Driver training opportunities", really?

The other problem is that if you don't keep running the new services all those drivers you have already trained up already will need retraining if everything takes to long to reach critical mass with the extra drivers you train in the future.

 

[bramling]

Good lord, that's apologism and PR style nonsense-speak taken to a new level I didn't expect to see. "Driver training opportunities", really?

I see Network Rail is having blame directed in its direction. I can understand on Northern where part of the problem seems to be the late delivery of electrification requiring timetables to be completely rewritten, but has GTR seen that much fundamental change? Even the Rainham flirtation has been known about for some time - long enough to know how many drivers would be available. I just don’t buy it - seems far more like a GTR mess and ultimately weak management from the DFT.

The “phasing” has been on the cards for ages, although the gradual implementation is more recent. Neither change the timetable fundamentally - indeed the whole timetable looks pretty ready for the various phases to occur with minimal change
1) in December add the second Cambridge/Horsham service, drop the Stevenage reversers back to Langley Junction, and (I presume) pull the handful of Royston 365s back to Baldock. Possibly some small changes at start and end of service.
2) in May send the Welwyns to Thameslink, and simply amend the turnarounds at Kings Cross accordingly to eliminate the current inter working
3) Simply divert the Cambridge stopping services to Thameslink

Of course we’ll see how much of that actually happens. Politically the ThamesLink/ dream is in tatters now.

 

[mmh]

The other problem is that if you don't keep running the new services all those drivers you have already trained up already will need retraining if everything takes to long to reach critical mass with the extra drivers you train in the future.

That's not how route knowledge works - or are you suggesting that this farce will go on long enough that someone who gets New Cross Gate to Blackfriars (perhaps the most understandable route) won't do it again for so long they lose it?

 

[hwl]

That's not how route knowledge works - or are you suggesting that this farce will go on long enough that someone who gets New Cross Gate to Blackfriars (perhaps the most understandable route) won't do it again for so long they lose it?

The general suggestion from all the GN users has been to abandon TL services on GN routes till a critical mass of trained drivers has been reached. Part of the problem was that there were so few training paths for the Canal Tunnels before the TT change that it would be difficult for drivers to retain knowledge if all the effort is now focused on training extra new drivers and continuing to run the new TL services though the canal tunnels enables already trained drivers to retain route knowledge using in service trains rather than making rostering in service trains harder due to drivers having to take the time to retain the knowledge on an empty train.

The recent Blackpool electrification blockade caused plenty of loss of route knowledge issues so it can happen.

 

[tsr]

Except TL can't be run as it was because they have split some of the old services with the 2 halves now being joined to different halves. E.g the Former Bedford- Three Bridges via Redhill has got extended to Horsham and the Southern end but is not joined to a Peterborough service instead of a Bedford service north of the core.

The new timetable will also be required to help provide driver training opportunities.

Bedford to Three Bridges is actually not such a problem, and you wouldn’t need to run it in two halves. In fact, doing so would be a logistical issue. This route has very little to do with Peterborough to Horsham, and was one which has already existed on weekday / Saturday daytimes. It merely ended up modified to be curtailed one stop shorter at Gatwick. The driver and unit resources were basically already in place before mid-May, and are suited to the TL operation.

However, Peterborough and Horsham have been joined up across the Thames by linking semi-fast Peterborough services with the former London Bridge to Horsham route, the latter having now theoretically been completely swallowed up by TL, although other GTR routes are now having to temporarily stop specially at the myriad times with numerous cancellations.

Because of the structure of depots and their driver knowledge, TL are basically struggling between transferring from rather more localised knowledge (Peterborough to London OR London to Horsham) to depots which operate the whole route from one end or the other. Eg. Horsham depot has been split in half, and half the depot will only work north from Horsham, all the way to Peterborough on TL. This needs route learning.

But whilst there are enough drivers to shadow for route learning north of Finsbury Park or south of London Bridge and so drivers are relatively OK learning them (there are always some rolling training programmes on any established route), drivers from both ends are unfamiliar with the Core, so pilot drivers in the Core are more stretched, as everyone needs showing the route.

Ditto Rainham to Luton and suchlike.

That's not how route knowledge works - or are you suggesting that this farce will go on long enough that someone who gets New Cross Gate to Blackfriars (perhaps the most understandable route) won't do it again for so long they lose it?

Quite possible, actually. Acquiring and then losing routes due to not working them is definitely “a thing”.

I concede it’s unlikely on Thameslink, but you never know...

 

[bramling]

The general suggestion from all the GN users has been to abandon TL services on GN routes till a critical mass of trained drivers has been reached. Part of the problem was that there were so few training paths for the Canal Tunnels before the TT change that it would be difficult for drivers to retain knowledge if all the effort is now focused on training extra new drivers and continuing to run the new TL services though the canal tunnels enables already trained drivers to retain route knowledge using in service trains rather than making rostering in service trains harder due to drivers having to take the time to retain the knowledge on an empty train.

The recent Blackpool electrification blockade caused plenty of loss of route knowledge issues so it can happen.

Being flippant I don’t think most GN users would care much if the knowledge was lost. The general feeling is very much “stuff through services if it’s going to be less reliable”.

Another plan would have to be found for obtaining and maintaining the route knowledge. The ideal of course is to have enough drivers so that release can be planned and facilitated. Evidently this didn’t happen. But I do realise this isn’t something which can be arranged at short notice from where we are. What a shambles.

 

[infobleep]

Type in Arlesey -> Hitchin (normal journey time: seven minutes) in National Rail, and its default trip during this two hour gap is getting the 1125 from Arlesey to Peterborough, then the 1230 from Peterborough to Stevenage, then the 1303 from Stevenage to Hitchin, arriving at 1308 after a 1 hour 43 minute journey, which by the way also happens to be three minutes before the 1311 arrives direct from Arlesey anyway. But, hey, if you want to spend £37.30 instead of £2.30 traveling to a destination five miles from your departure point, there's your chance. "Buy now!"

Due to the issues would that be considered a reasonable route?

 

[johnnychips]

cinsidcons

What does that mean?

 

[radamfi]

No Thameslink service from Brighton until 0605 this morning.

 

[sefton]

No trains at all from Arelesy this morning at all for the commuters.

All trains after the 6.04 are cancelled until the 8.35, with most of them being hidden cancellations.

 

[Kanrakuq]

Let's hope the people of Arlesey who want to get into London get on the hastily-scheduled 0618 to Kings Cross, because the next one going south doesn't leave until 0834.

 

[radamfi]

No Thameslink service from Brighton until 0605 this morning.

However, I've just seen an empty train go up the fast line through Three Bridges.

 

[Kanrakuq]

All trains after the 6.04 are cancelled until the 8.35, with most of them being hidden cancellations.

The 0604 is cancelled as well, in that it's skip stopping Huntingdon-Arlesey. Since it's already magnificently late (45 minutes before it had even left) it's not getting to Hitchin until nearly seven anyway.

The sheer state of a train company that skip stops most inbound stations like that's any kind of solution to anything. Have they forgotten what the point of a train is?

 

[sefton]

The 0604 is cancelled as well, in that it's skip stopping Huntingdon-Arlesey. Since it's already magnificently late (45 minutes before it had even left) it's not getting to Hitchin until nearly seven anyway.

The sheer state of a train company that skip stops most inbound stations like that's any kind of solution to anything. Have they forgotten what the point of a train is?

Skipping stops at this time of day is just smacks of playing with toy train sets.

 

[Kanrakuq]

Anyway, I don't think it's even left Peterborough yet (now listed as 57 minutes late), looks like they're just going to leave it there waiting until someone who can drive the route shows up.

Edit: I present to the world the next two hours of the morning rush hour at Arlesey:

Due Destination Status Platform
06:55 Peterborough On time 2
07:55 Peterborough On time

 

[Bungle965]

Left Peterborough 59L.
After London Bridge it's East Croydon & Gatwick Airport only, skipping all the other stops also.
Sam

 

[radamfi]

Anyway, I don't think it's even left Peterborough yet (now listed as 57 minutes late), looks like they're just going to leave it there waiting until someone who can drive the route shows up.

Edit: I present to the world the next two hours of the morning rush hour at Arlesey:

Due Destination Status Platform
06:55 Peterborough On time 2
07:55 Peterborough On time

Presumably the best bet in that case is to double back via Peterborough and VTEC.

 

[Hadders]

A complete shambles again this morning. Just 3 trains from Stevenage to London between 07:00 and 07:59 (and the 07:51 is running 14 mins late). Spare a thought for the poor passengers from Arlesey though.

Buses for passengers going to Knebworth etc.

It’s not getting any better.