Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[Ianno87]

Exactly, Thameslink South is a mess on the map.

In truth all the SE routes should be routed into Elephant and Castle and one of the Sydenham metro routes should’ve simply been extended into the core since they couldn’t add extra routes through windmill junction then just have GTR take over the Coulsdon Town service via Sydenham up to Luton, it’s that simple

It's not that simple. Consider Bricklayers Arms Jn, which would have 16tph core-bound (lets say 12tph from Windmill Bridge, 4tph from the Sydenham slows). Crossing through all of this would be all the stuff coming off the Fasts going into the terminal platforms (2tph each from Uckfield, Coastways, Epsom and Cat/Tat).

That's 24tph one at a time over this point - nothing can be done in parallel. So Thameslinks need to be 5 minutes apart in order to get something else into Low level between them (repeating 2.5/2.5/5/2.5/2.5/5, etc.). But then need to transition to alternate 3/3.5 minute headways to proceed through London Bridge. Although it might work on paper in this area you've just created a timetabling hardpoint around which the whole of the rest of Sussex must be driven.

Sending 4tph off into Kent at least creates some timetable 'flex' to suit pathing. Sending them to the Sydenham slows forces everything into a rigid 24tph pattern.

 

[greatkingrat]

An example of the human cost arising from the disaster that is the current TL/GN service performance.
https://twitter.com/GNRailUK/status/1001891061776683013

The fact that account was only created yesterday and has purely been used to complain about Thameslink makes me rather sceptical of the accuracy of that tweet.

 

[NorthKent1989]

It's not that simple. Consider Bricklayers Arms Jn, which would have 16tph core-bound (lets say 12tph from Windmill Bridge, 4tph from the Sydenham slows). Crossing through all of this would be all the stuff coming off the Fasts going into the terminal platforms (2tph each from Uckfield, Coastways, Epsom and Cat/Tat).

That's 24tph one at a time over this point - nothing can be done in parallel. So Thameslinks need to be 5 minutes apart in order to get something else into Low level between them (repeating 2.5/2.5/5/2.5/2.5/5, etc.). But then need to transition to alternate 3/3.5 minute headways to proceed through London Bridge. Although it might work on paper in this area you've just created a timetabling hardpoint around which the whole of the rest of Sussex must be driven.

Sending 4tph off into Kent at least creates some timetable 'flex' to suit pathing. Sending them to the Sydenham slows forces everything into a rigid 24tph pattern.

Then maybe Thameslink shouldn’t run 24tph then, I don’t believe Thameslink can deliver on this asee on the last week and a half.

 

[sefton]

Well no trains south from St Neots for four hours this morning after 9.30.

Nothing at all.

There is a bad service and then there is this.

 

[Hadders]

Well no trains south from St Neots for four hours this morning after 9.30.

Nothing at all.

There is a bad service and then there is this.

Blimey. That's absolutely awful. A complete shambles in fact.

Something's going to have to change and fast. This can't continue.

 

[Fred26]

I am not sure Finsbury Park could cope if everyone did that. It frequently closes the underground for congestion now. Unless the improve connectivity between platforms (Bridge at the north end?) I think it could get dangerously overcrowded.

Indeed, it's a horrible station to interchange. Lifts are being fitted, which is seemingly taking an age, and a long disused passageway is being opened which should help ease things.
Really the station needs bulldozing and rebuilding, but that's a long way from realistic and we'll have to rely on piecemeal improvements. One thing I wonder about at Finsbury Park, is could another island be built on the area I assume used to hold the Northern Heights platform? This could further be used to separate NCL from mainline trains.

 

[Clip]

The fact that account was only created yesterday and has purely been used to complain about Thameslink makes me rather sceptical of the accuracy of that tweet.

They may have just created it to complain to them but they won't notice anything from him now as he will be blocked due to his bad language

 

[bramling]

Indeed, it's a horrible station to interchange. Lifts are being fitted, which is seemingly taking an age, and a long disused passageway is being opened which should help ease things.
Really the station needs bulldozing and rebuilding, but that's a long way from realistic and we'll have to rely on piecemeal improvements. One thing I wonder about at Finsbury Park, is could another island be built on the area I assume used to hold the Northern Heights platform? This could further be used to separate NCL from mainline trains.

I don’t think platform space is the issue - as you allude to it’s the subways and stairways that are the issue, all narrow and with sharp corners, and the interchange with the Undeground, part of which relies on narrow spiral staircases and narrow cross-passages, which at Tube level are themselves a heavily used interchange between the two LU lines. Even if the top side was sorted out, there’s still the issue that the LU platforms can’t clear quickly enough when too many people are trying to use the spiral stairs, particularly with the Vic Line disgorging passengers potentially at a rate of 36tph.

The other problem is if you get a short-notice platform change of a down train - that is what could be lethal in the wrong circumstances. Likewise if you have conflicting flows or a blockage in the narrow subway.

 

[jon0844]

18 services on the GN side tomorrow plus some more trains through the core. Could be the best day so far.

As a whole, it looks like around 100 over the whole network overall (a guess on my part, I didn't count).

 

[choochoochoo]

18 services on the GN side tomorrow plus some more trains through the core. Could be the best day so far.

As a whole, it looks like around 100 over the whole network overall (a guess on my part, I didn't count).

Where is this info posted? I can't find it on the GTR or NR sites

 

[KTrain82]

My own thoughts/questions (for those who work within the rail industry) on what has unfolded over the last ten days, having read many of the comments as well:

• I assume that the investigation into what has gone so badly wrong, will have already started? Will someone be held to account?
• In terms of scale, the timetable change was always going to be very ambitious, and given the issues that GTR has in even trying to run a regular service, it was perhaps inevitable that this was going to happen.
• There are some who say that these are 'teething issues', and the service will settle down; from what I have read here, the main reason for the mass cancellations are the shortage of drivers with the required route knowledge and, more critically, the shortage of driver instructors to train them.
• If this is the case, what is puzzling me (and this question has been asked before) is why go ahead with the timetable change? People in senior management must have known that there was the possibility of significant issues occurring.
• I completely understand the fury of many commuters now experiencing a worse service, and in some cases such as the North Kent line, a significantly worse service. For people to be losing their jobs as a result of the unreliable service, GTR needs to be sitting up and taking notice.
• Lastly, I think that given the challenging circumstances, the majority of ground staff at GTR are doing the best they can. But surely, within the senior management, some heads have to roll? GTR passengers have had to put up with an awful lot over the last few years, in the promise that a better service was coming, and it now looks like that will not be happening for a while. For the PR team to come out and initially say that the timetable launch 'was a success', smacks of contempt for some of its paying commuters.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Another great start to a Thameslink day...…..


06:34 Sutton (London) Cancelled Details for the 06:34
06:46 Luton On time 2 Details for the 06:46
06:47 Sutton (London) via Wimbledon On time 1 Details for the 06:47
06:58 Orpington Cancelled Detail

 

[43074]

• There are some who say that these are 'teething issues', and the service will settle down; from what I have read here, the main reason for the mass cancellations are the shortage of drivers with the required route knowledge and, more critically, the shortage of driver instructors to train them.
• If this is the case, what is puzzling me (and this question has been asked before) is why go ahead with the timetable change? People in senior management must have known that there was the possibility of significant issues occurring.

To be honest just rolling the December 17 timetable over was never really an option as EMT, VTEC, Southeastern and ARL to name a few have all had to make significant changes to accommodate Thameslink or Southern services so it really isn't that simple. I think the fatal error was the comparatively late stage (November last year) at which it was decided to scale the peak back to 18tph instead of 20tph, as taking trains out of a timetable sounds fine, but is quite complex from a diagramming point of view, and doing that will have delayed the completion of the base diagrams and in turn rosters, contributing to the driver issues.

Compare that to Crossrail where the base plan has been known for years (e.g. The number of Paddington turnbacks, split of trains between Woolwich and Shenfield branches), and there haven't really been the number of changes to that which Thameslink has had. Another example: the 700s were ordered to operate a different timetable to that which has been introduced and some routes have been added, others dropped since then, so I think the instability is a huge factor in contributing to this, and is something we just haven't seen from Crossrail. I think it's a perfect storm really, with DfT, Network Rail and Govia incompetence (at all levels) just contributing. In any case I think it would have been too late to salvage the situation by the time it was realised how much trouble the project was in.

 

[Julia]

Blimey. That's absolutely awful. A complete shambles in fact.

Something's going to have to change and fast. This can't continue.

I had a look at RTT and I see there aren't even any scheduled up calls at SNO between 1118 (which was cancelled yesterday) and 1318 (which was horribly late). So the long term cancellations have taken us down to one every two hours off-peak??

 

[the Rat]

ThamesLink/ dreamworld philosophy of joining random dots and “it will work”.

Best summary yet of this chaotic situation.

 

[84002]

I had a look at RTT and I see there aren't even any scheduled up calls at SNO between 1118 (which was cancelled yesterday) and 1318 (which was horribly late). So the long term cancellations have taken us down to one every two hours off-peak??

That's about right. Nothing scheduled at Huntingdon between the 10.41 (on its way, currently on time) and 12.41

 

[Kanrakuq]

I had a look at RTT and I see there aren't even any scheduled up calls at SNO between 1118 (which was cancelled yesterday) and 1318 (which was horribly late). So the long term cancellations have taken us down to one every two hours off-peak??

Type in Arlesey -> Hitchin (normal journey time: seven minutes) in National Rail, and its default trip during this two hour gap is getting the 1125 from Arlesey to Peterborough, then the 1230 from Peterborough to Stevenage, then the 1303 from Stevenage to Hitchin, arriving at 1308 after a 1 hour 43 minute journey, which by the way also happens to be three minutes before the 1311 arrives direct from Arlesey anyway. But, hey, if you want to spend £37.30 instead of £2.30 traveling to a destination five miles from your departure point, there's your chance. "Buy now!"

 

[the Rat]

Type in Arlesey -> Hitchin (normal journey time: seven minutes) in National Rail, and its default trip during this two hour gap is getting the 1125 from Arlesey to Peterborough, then the 1230 from Peterborough to Stevenage, then the 1303 from Stevenage to Hitchin, arriving at 1308 after a 1 hour 43 minute journey, which by the way also happens to be three minutes before the 1311 arrives direct from Arlesey anyway. But, hey, if you want to spend £37.30 instead of £2.30 traveling to a destination five miles from your departure point, there's your chance. "Buy now!"

Just another of the wonderful travel opportunities given to us by the new timetable!!

 

[MikeWM]

The track has given up south of Cambridge now, everything via Royston has been cancelled for the last hour or so. So there is (probably) something to blame NR for today, rather than GTR...

Edit : though having had a quick look at the performance of Cambridge to London trains (semi-fast/stopper) this morning before this happened, still more than enough of the blame is for GTR. More cancelled than ran

 

[NorthKent1989]

The 1112 from Rochester is cancelled and I’ve checked and double checked and there doesn’t appear to be any GTR trains for 2 and half hours.

I’m lost for words at how bad this is.

 

[hwl]

The 1112 from Rochester is cancelled and I’ve checked and double checked and there doesn’t appear to be any GTR trains for 2 and half hours.

I’m lost for words at how bad this is.

Still better than Jan 2015 at London Bridge...

 

[Robert Symonds]

The 1112 from Rochester is cancelled and I’ve checked and double checked and there doesn’t appear to be any GTR trains for 2 and half hours.

I’m lost for words at how bad this is.

I don't know how there aloud to get away with it.The Charing Cross service needs to be reinstated now.There is no excuse for this service.Charing Cross is now starting from Gravesend, could easily be extended to Gillingham.(though this is via Sidcup)Or reinstate the original service via Woolwich which is now starting at Dartford.Its an easy solution.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Still better than Jan 2015 at London Bridge...

I hope your joking, If you are then what I’m about say won’t effect you, but I’m not concerned with three years ago, when London Bridge was being rebuilt from scratch, that I can understand, this is shambolic you can’t promise “journey opportunities” to the bright lights of Luton when you cancel one train there and then have no GTR trains for the next few hours.

People rely on connections and this is going to delay them, for all those who said stop moaning and complaining all the time, no we won’t not while this is happening!

 

[Robert Symonds]

Still better than Jan 2015 at London Bridge...

Oh that's OK then, huge improvement.

 

[bramling]

Just another of the wonderful travel opportunities given to us by the new timetable!!

“Exciting” is the official word I think.

 

[Silver Cobra]

Type in Arlesey -> Hitchin (normal journey time: seven minutes) in National Rail, and its default trip during this two hour gap is getting the 1125 from Arlesey to Peterborough, then the 1230 from Peterborough to Stevenage, then the 1303 from Stevenage to Hitchin, arriving at 1308 after a 1 hour 43 minute journey, which by the way also happens to be three minutes before the 1311 arrives direct from Arlesey anyway. But, hey, if you want to spend £37.30 instead of £2.30 traveling to a destination five miles from your departure point, there's your chance. "Buy now!"

I guess it gives Stagecoach an opportunity for some extra custom. An hourly 23-minute bus journey from the Old Oak pub to Hitchin town centre for a mere £4.40. Normally the bus is a rip-off compared to the train, but given the circumstances, it certainly beats spending £37.30 to travel around on various trains for nearly 2 hours.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I don't know how there aloud to get away with it.The Charing Cross service needs to be reinstated now.There is no excuse for this service.Charing Cross is now starting from Gravesend, could easily be extended to Gillingham.(though this is via Sidcup)Or reinstate the original service via Woolwich which is now starting at Dartford.Its an easy solution.

No one is happy with the new services anywhere, I feel sorry for Higham, they should reinstate the timetable and Thameslink should rethink its routes

 

[ijmad]

Type in Arlesey -> Hitchin (normal journey time: seven minutes) in National Rail, and its default trip during this two hour gap is getting the 1125 from Arlesey to Peterborough, then the 1230 from Peterborough to Stevenage, then the 1303 from Stevenage to Hitchin, arriving at 1308 after a 1 hour 43 minute journey, which by the way also happens to be three minutes before the 1311 arrives direct from Arlesey anyway. But, hey, if you want to spend £37.30 instead of £2.30 traveling to a destination five miles from your departure point, there's your chance. "Buy now!"

Many people could literally walk faster.

 

[hwl]

I hope your joking, If you are then what I’m about say won’t effect you, but I’m not concerned with three years ago, when London Bridge was being rebuilt from scratch, that I can understand, this is shambolic you can’t promise “journey opportunities” to the bright lights of Luton when you cancel one train there and then have no GTR trains for the next few hours.

People rely on connections and this is going to delay them, for all those who said stop moaning and complaining all the time, no we won’t not while this is happening!

I'm not joking - which is possibly is why many forum users seem to disagree with you on this and in the other threads.

Then the impact in terms of number of services and people affected was also far higher elsewhere previously. Everyone accepts that Medway users aren't having good time of things at the moment but it is not unprecedented (far from it) or the worst in recent years.
There are 2 separate issues that you don't seem to be able to dissociate:
a) the new service pattern - lots of places have and will face this over the next few years as result of growing passenger numbers and it is inevitable unfortunately given the network that exists and what you can realistically do with it. Look at the Redhill area users complaints since 2014 for example (you'll recognise everything you say has been said before in regards to Redhill etc. (I have nothing to do with Redhill by the way) permanently slower journeys with the removal of semi fast services that we 1 or 2 stops to Victoria or London Bridge with 15minute longer journey times and having to change if going further south more than 3 stops. Your situation is not unique in the GTR area let alone nationally over the last half decade. The same will be seen on GWR and SWR at the end of this year and C2C have been trying to do the same for years as all the growth hasn't been in the traditional Fenchurch Street to Greater Southend market and they face huge backlash from their traditional core users to any change as they refuse to acknowledge times change and new growth patterns. It worth having good look at some of the historic mega threads on these from before you joined the forum. Many of the older forum members have seen this all before many many times so everyone should try to appreciate other view points and fact base.

b) GTR not having enough trained drivers

a) is not going away but b) will improve

 

[Robert Symonds]

I'm not joking - which is possibly is why many forum users seem to disagree with you on this and in the other threads.

Then the impact in terms of number of services and people affected was also far higher elsewhere previously. Everyone accepts that Medway users aren't having good time of things at the moment but it is not unprecedented (far from it) or the worst in recent years.
There are 2 separate issues that you don't seem to be able to dissociate:
a) the new service pattern - lots of places have and will face this over the next few years as result of growing passenger numbers and it is inevitable unfortunately given the network that exists and what you can realistically do with it. Look at the Redhill area users complaints since 2014 for example (you'll recognise everything you say has been said before in regards to Redhill etc. (I have nothing to do with Redhill by the way) permanently slower journeys with the removal of semi fast services that we 1 or 2 stops to Victoria or London Bridge with 15minute longer journey times and having to change if going further south more than 3 stops. Your situation is not unique in the GTR area let alone nationally over the last half decade. The same will be seen on GWR and SWR at the end of this year and C2C have been trying to do the same for years as all the growth hasn't been in the traditional Fenchurch Street to Greater Southend market and they face huge backlash from their traditional core users to any change as they refuse to acknowledge times change and new growth patterns. It worth having good look at some of the historic mega threads on these from before you joined the forum. Many of the older forum members have seen this all before many many times so everyone should try to appreciate other view points and fact base.

b) GTR not having enough trained drivers

a) is not going away but b) will improve

As far as Medway is concerned and Higham( which basically now does not have a service)this situation is considerably worse then the rebuild of London Bridge.I can understand some of the changes.However getting rid of the Charing Cross service from Gillingham is ridiculous and has no point whatsoever.