Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[The Box Photter]

Compounded by the fact that I think 375s/Networkers are not permitted north of Blackfriars anymore whereas 377/2s & 377/5s are.. Please correct me if not.

So are 377s not allowed into Smithfield? They used to be. If it was a pair of 377/5s, they were running through the core all the way to Bedford until only a few months ago. Have they suddenly become incompatible with the OHLE? The problem with the way the railway is run these days is that there's no scope for local pragmatic decision-making on the ground. No doubt the delay attribution people and the H&S lawyers were wringing their hands at the possibility that a class 377 might be shunted into Smithfield Sidings and suddenly explode because the safety case had expired.

Complete shambles. The new TL/GN timetable should be suspended immediately and the pre 20 May timetable reinstated. The plans to run GN trains through the core should be put on hold until such time as there are sufficient drivers trained to be able to run the full service, with spares. Thameslink should be recast on a much simpler basis with the emphasis being placed on delivering a robust, reliable service for passengers who rely on the trains & have no alternative way of getting to/from work.

By that, I mean that priority should be given to Bedford - Brighton services and the Wimbledon/Sutton trains should be run no further north than Blackfriars. That's what the station was rebuilt to accommodate. On-one was demanding the ability to travel from Peterborough to Horsham or even Cambridge to Gatwick/Brighton. It wasn't that difficult to get a train into Kings X and walk a few yards to St Pancras for those people who needed to get to Brighton or Gatwick.

The new Thameslink timetable is the answer to a series of questions nobody was ever asking.

Oh, and HORTON OUT! (and Grayling).

 

[Antman]

That depends greatly on where you are, if your in the Medway where before you had semi fast trains to Charing Cross, which called only at major interchange stations, and your journey was 1hr 10 mins then yes we would much rather have what we had before than have a pointless all stops Thameslink service which goes to Luton, a trip which could be made by either going via HS1 to change at St. Pancras for Luton, or after Dec 2018 make a trip to Abbey Wood, Crossrail to Farringdon then Thameslink to Luton, aside from that most of us in Medway either want the route changed to run via Bromley South to replace the previous Medway to Victoria stopper via Denmark Hill, or a complete return of our Woolwich semi fasts and to get rid of Thameslink.

I totally agree, Thameslink has bought no benefits at all to the Medway Towns, quite the opposite in fact.

 

[Bishopstone]

Leaving aside the cancellations, I find the extent of late running (10 minutes plus) to be perhaps more concerning, for the long term.

Okay, there was the Blackfriars incident this morning, but on a network of this size there are going to be incidents (operational, infrastructure, passenger, weather etc) almost every day. To have multiple services running 30-60 minutes late, hours after incident resolution, seem ominous. It’s like there’s no resilience, and a service recovery plan which doesn’t exist or is broken already.

 

[bramling]

Leaving aside the cancellations, I find the extent of late running (10 minutes plus) to be perhaps more concerning, for the long term.

Okay, there was the Blackfriars incident this morning, but on a network of this size there are going to be incidents (operational, infrastructure, passenger, weather etc) almost every day. To have multiple services running 30-60 minutes late, hours after incident resolution, seem ominous. It’s like there’s no resilience, and a service recovery plan which doesn’t exist or is broken already.

This is all entirely predictable, even before this week it was an inherent weakness of Thameslink. Now we just see more late running spread further and wider. The problem is that, unlike St. Albans with its 8tph service, other locations rely on a 2tph service, where small delays are much more severely felt.

 

[bramling]

Why are so many throwing in the towel after five days.

So many are looking for any reason for this to fail just to justify their scepticism.

I hope those with wise heads allow a month for this to settle and then review again.

Do we really want a revert to what we had before when the opportunities are so much greater once staff are all trained and things bed down.

GTR clearly weren't ready but that doesn't mean this timetable isn't workable.

Be patient, plan ahead and review at end of June.

This I find astounding to be honest.

Firstly, why should I have to "plan ahead and review at end of June", whatever that means? I don't need to use the through services, I've never flown from Gatwick in my life, and I don't regularly visit Brighton - far less Horsham. So personally the "exciting new destinations" offer me precisely nothing. Like many others I expect to be able to turn up at the station and take a train to London or wherever, without regularly entering into some kind of Thameslink lottery as to how long I'll have to wait on the platform and what time I'll arrive at my destination. I spent several years doing this in the 1990s, ironically between London and St Albans, and even then despite an 8tph service it was common to be on a platform for 30 minutes or more. Judging by discussions at my local station this morning, this seems to be the majority view - stuff the exciting new destinations if it means the service isn't reliable and dependable.

Secondly, as someone else has posted, this isn't some kind of train set where some excited child has joined a few dots. Thousands of people rely on the service to take them to London and elsewhere, including many key workers from the many new towns on the GN route. It won't be long before we start seeing a wider impact if this continues. Reviewing at the end of June doesn't help people who need to get to work *today*, and I'm sure it won't go down well when employees turn up for work several hours late day after day but ask their employers to "be patient" and promise they will "review at end June".

Many on here, including myself, have been predicting this would be a disaster. Yet with all the descoping even I thought the introduction would probably be just about okay. The level of shambles is simply breathtaking. And to think this incompetent load of dreamers think they can operate a 24tph metro service reliably? Dream on - if they're still in position by next December that is.

 

[bramling]

Was a pair of electrostars, big balls up. Was compunded by allowing two trains to come up behind. These two trains then had to make wrong direction moves back towards elephant, to allow the 377's back out.

Not the first time it's happened either.

 

[bramling]

Right now journey planners for tomorrow show all stations on the Peterborough line north of Hitchin having all trains cancelled. According to TL on Twitter this isn't the case and information about the timetable they will try to run tomorrow will be entered into the system overnight ... Smooth as silk.

People will rightly ignore the PDFs on the website, if they even know about them, since they're always being told the journey planners are the most up-to-date place to get information.

PS ... https://www.railplan2020.com/timetables/timetables-introduction

"Sunday Timetables
Coming soon"

I mean ...

BTW, to continue the ramble, looking at the timetable, if the Peterborough line is going to be half-hourly to Kings Cross and back all on 12-carriage 700s (is it?), great, that's all I ever wanted anyway. Used to go mad when they'd crank out the four carriage trains in late morning when everyone's travelling down to London. Was normally the most unpleasant journey of the week.

Forget the core, already proven you can't do it, just do this, I'll be happy.

Yes an all-day half-hourly 12-car KX-Peterborough service would be ideal, even better if they bring the 365s back. Perhaps the best compromise would be an hourly Thameslink and an hourly King's Cross service - that would please everyone. I suspect this will be the eventual outcome, albeit with a lot of heartache and shambles along the way.

 

[Failed Unit]

I would benefit from the new destinations but how do we plan ahead? At the moment it is look up timetable. Check realtimes to see if it has departed its origin station? See if the inbound made it to the origin station? If both of these are ok head to the station and pray they don’t decide to skip stop.

One evening I looked before leaving work. The only train running to WGC was the 1736 in the peak. The 1806 was later reinstated.

This morning the 0832 WGC - London skipped stations south of potters bar. I am sure the people waiting didn’t have time to plan.

That is the problem you can’t plan. Just allow lots of time for multiple cancellations or be prepared to drive to a station with a better chance of seeing something. Ie if you live at Welwyn north go to WGC. Biggleswade drive to Hitchin or Stevenage.

Not really a good advert for rail.

Look at real time at Finsbury Park at the moment. Bear in mind the previous service to Cambridge (slow one) was cancelled. You can’t plan that is the problem. (Horsham - Peterborough “delayed”.) blocking platform for Kings Cross - Cambridge.

 

[bramling]

I would benefit from the new destinations but how do we plan ahead? At the moment it is look up timetable. Check realtimes to see if it has departed its origin station? See if the inbound made it to the origin station? If both of these are ok head to the station and pray they don’t decide to skip stop.

One evening I looked before leaving work. The only train running to WGC was the 1736 in the peak. The 1806 was later reinstated.

This morning the 0832 WGC - London skipped stations south of potters bar. I am sure the people waiting didn’t have time to plan.

That is the problem you can plan. Just allow lots of time for multiple cancellations or be prepared to drive to a station with a better chance of seeing something. Ie if you live at Welwyn north go to WGC. Biggleswade drive to Hitchin or Stevenage.

Not really a good advert for rail.

Look at real time at Finsbury Park at the moment. Bear in mind the previous service to Cambridge (slow one) was cancelled. You can’t plan that is the problem. (Horsham - Peterborough “delayed”.) blocking platform for Kings Cross - Cambridge.

As I say, this is Thameslink all over. It's great if you're travelling to St. Albans - just turn up at the station and no matter how much delay there is there will probably be a train along sooner or later, and if you have to stand it doesn't really matter for a journey of only 20 minutes. If it falls over (which it seems to regularly!), don't worry, just take GN to Hatfield and get the wife to pick you up!

We now have four weak-performing networks joined together by a cobbled-together set of Victorian tunnels. Two south of the Thames which can barely handle the number of services timetabled to operate on them, riddled with flat junctions, and with regular infrastructure failures. North of the Thames we have one route which was rationalised for a declining service in the 1970s and 80s, paired by use not direction and with some layouts that are not fit for purpose (e.g. Bedford) And of course the GN - sinking under the weight of the number of services running over it but managed just about okay providing everything was running on time. No wonder we now have a shambles that is attracting national media attention.

By all means have some through services, but just not the full service from a destination.

 

[carlovel1]

I haven't had much experience with the new timetable towards the London end as I usually travel between Potters Bar and WGC.

But travelled into Finsbury Park and its chaos. Tons of delays and cancellations and platform alterations. Horsham to Peterborough train seems to have failed at Finsbury so the 17:06 KGX to PBO 12 car 365 made an additional stop at Finsbury Park. And looked rammed by the looks of it. A semi slow KGX to WGC service arrived into platform 5 which I've never seen before. Now, I'm on the 16:38 (which is running 50 mins late) FPK to Horsham train, where we are being held as the driver is unsure whether we are going into KGX or Horsham via STP!

 

[Nevasleep]

Any news on this essential engineering work by Network Rail over the weekend?

 

[NorthKent1989]

I totally agree, Thameslink has bought no benefits at all to the Medway Towns, quite the opposite in fact.

Don’t you know? We got great “journey opportunities” to north of the river -_- I mean we kind of already had this with one change at a station further up the line and that was still faster than what we have now.

I too fail to see what benefits this brings to Medway, Gravesend, Dartford and SE London that will match or better Crossrail, what I hated about the announcement of this service was how vague it all was, if we had known sooner that having a Thameslink would replace the Woolwich semi fasts entirely then I doubt this service would even be running today

 

[Failed Unit]

Any news on this essential engineering work by Network Rail over the weekend?

GTR smoke screen. Only engineering work is Sunday morning blocking the Moorgate route. The rest is a blatant lie by GTR so they don’t need to admit they can’t run the timetable.

Positive if the trains run at the weekend- just why can’t GTR be honest?

 

[Taunton]

I've never flown from Gatwick in my life

Apparently others will be joining your group. BBC reports that the major airlines at Gatwick are at their wits end this week with crews, many of whom live along the line, being so delayed reporting for work that plane departures are being delayed and disorganised.

If it starts disrupting British Airways and costing them serious money then they will be on their direct line to the Minister very promptly.

 

[Failed Unit]

When you look at the ppm for GTR it looks ok at 75%. Noticed north Kent lucky to hit 10% Gatwick express and Brighton mainline struggling to hit 50% GN inners ok. Great to know if you live in Biggleswade.

 

[Ianno87]

Are there any roads in the UK which are shared by buses and trams, but closed to general traffic?

So are 377s not allowed into Smithfield? They used to be. If it was a pair of 377/5s, they were running through the core all the way to Bedford until only a few months ago. Have they suddenly become incompatible with the OHLE? The problem with the way the railway is run these days is that there's no scope for local pragmatic decision-making on the ground. No doubt the delay attribution people and the H&S lawyers were wringing their hands at the possibility that a class 377 might be shunted into Smithfield Sidings and suddenly explode because the safety case had expired.

Complete shambles. The new TL/GN timetable should be suspended immediately and the pre 20 May timetable reinstated. The plans to run GN trains through the core should be put on hold until such time as there are sufficient drivers trained to be able to run the full service, with spares. Thameslink should be recast on a much simpler basis with the emphasis being placed on delivering a robust, reliable service for passengers who rely on the trains & have no alternative way of getting to/from work.

By that, I mean that priority should be given to Bedford - Brighton services and the Wimbledon/Sutton trains should be run no further north than Blackfriars. That's what the station was rebuilt to accommodate. On-one was demanding the ability to travel from Peterborough to Horsham or even Cambridge to Gatwick/Brighton. It wasn't that difficult to get a train into Kings X and walk a few yards to St Pancras for those people who needed to get to Brighton or Gatwick.

The new Thameslink timetable is the answer to a series of questions nobody was ever asking.

Oh, and HORTON OUT! (and Grayling).

1) Southeastern drivers probably don't sign past Blackfriars - even more probably not if they're "Main Line" drivers.

2) If it were 12 cars, it wouldn't fit anyway.

 

[Deepgreen]

GTR had long since proved themselves incapable of planning or running a reliable railway, and expectations that they could re-cast a whole network's timetable and operations anywhere near successfully were always going to be dashed (even at a reduced tph rate through the core). Their crew management has been diabolical for years, and morale must be lower than virtually any other employee pool anywhere in the UK. The timetable and crew rostering planning tools available these days makes it all the more scandalous that they have been able to get themselves into this state.

They fail repeatedly on a huge scale and the Government's dogged continuation of their transparent meddling in a 'private' enterprise is a farce.

 

[jellybaby]

Horsham to Peterborough train seems to have failed at Finsbury

No relief driver according to the platform staff. Lots of platform staff doing their best but mostly without much information of what was going to happen next either.

There isn't usually a BTP officer hanging around on the platform on a Friday evening...

I've only had one 15+ minute delay on Great Northern this week which is about average. The staff I've spoken to have seemed as frustrated as me but always friendly and trying their best so thanks to them.

 

[Bromley boy]

1) Southeastern drivers probably don't sign past Blackfriars - even more probably not if they're "Main Line" drivers.

2) If it were 12 cars, it wouldn't fit anyway.

Some SE drivers do (the ones who drive TL services, who aren’t mainline SE drivers). The one driving that particular service may well not have done of course.

I believe it was a networker, in any case, which are not permitted into Smithfield sidings.

 

[Joe Paxton]

...
There isn't usually a BTP officer hanging around on the platform on a Friday evening...
...

Probably trying to get home like everyone else!

 

[MrCub]

Could someone explain to an idiot like me why the incorrect routing of a train into the wrong platform at 0730 today is STILL having an impact on service at 1820?

 

[southernyoshi]

Ignore - badly phrased question

 

[Bedpan]

I totally agree, Thameslink has bought no benefits at all to the Medway Towns, quite the opposite in fact.

I don’t think it’s brought any benefits to those of us on the MML who want to go to the Medway towns either!

 

[Downthelane]

For those questioning the validity of the through core services. On the three days I have used Tues, Wed and Thursday both directions in the peaks were full and standing. So it would seem plenty are keen to avoid the KGX change. These are 12 car services too.

Today has been a disaster obviously but as above poster has asked why did an issue before 8.00 end up impacting service all day?

 

[bramling]

For those questioning the validity of the through core services. On the three days I have used Tues, Wed and Thursday both directions in the peaks were full and standing. So it would seem plenty are keen to avoid the KGX change. These are 12 car services too.

Many stations have little or no choice. At off-peak times the entire GN fast service from destinations south of Cambridge is entirely made up of core services, and even in the peaks some destinations have no choice (e.g. Arlesey).

Today has been a disaster obviously but as above poster has asked why did an issue before 8.00 end up impacting service all day?

Because it's Thameslink and the network is now too big and awkward to manage?

 

[ComUtoR]

Today has been a disaster obviously but as above poster has asked why did an issue before 8.00 end up impacting service all day?

It's just teething problems, come back in June after a full review and the service has settled.

 

[Failed Unit]

For those questioning the validity of the through core services. On the three days I have used Tues, Wed and Thursday both directions in the peaks were full and standing. So it would seem plenty are keen to avoid the KGX change. These are 12 car services too.

Today has been a disaster obviously but as above poster has asked why did an issue before 8.00 end up impacting service all day?

I am genuinely interested who’s journey would be better if they could use core / change it Finsbury Park? We can’t be the only 2. The fact that at the times a travel nothing seems to go through the core is a minor detail.

But what has happened to GTR planning? What is the recovery plan? Someone that used to post here said they would divert some into KX and turn others at Finsbury Park. Likewise the bays at Blackfriars would be used to help recover.

 

[Downthelane]

Many stations have little or no choice. At off-peak times the entire GN fast service from destinations south of Cambridge is entirely made up of core services, and even in the peaks some destinations have no choice (e.g. Arlesey).

Those (e.g. Arlesey) passengers are quite able to change at Finsbury Park to KGX services services in the same way as WGC/HAT passengers wanting core services are doing.

 

[MrCub]

I really like the idea of services using the Core, but so far all that has happened is the vindication of everyone who was sceptical or suggested TL/GN wouldn't be able to cope if something went even a bit wrong.

 

[bramling]

Someone that used to post here said they would divert some into KX and turn others at Finsbury Park. Likewise the bays at Blackfriars would be used to help recover.

It was patently obvious that diverting into KX and turning at Finsbury Park wasn't something which could be done easily en masse.

Like most of the stuff that particular someone posted, this has turned out to be rubbish in reality.