Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[Failed Unit]

I wouldn't say GN has had a good day. Apart from many cancellations, there's been some pretty hefty late running, mainly on services to and from the core. The KX-Cambridge looks to have been reasonably okay though.

Compared to the rest of the week it is good. (Yes low standard). They haven’t cancelled most of the rush hour for once. (At leafy from wgc.)

Think back to last week when I didn’t need to leave for work 30 minutes earlier to get in on time in case of multiple cancellations.

 

[FOH]

The Thameslink Daily Performance site is still not working. Is this not a franchise breach?

 

[Downthelane]

I do find it interesting that two of the biggest critics are from WGC and that the loss of the fast from WGC to Finsbury Park does appear to be so 'important'. WGC today has FOUR decent well timed services into and out of KGX that provide much greater flexibility than ever before. Try changing at Finsbury Park for services into the core, I have done 3/4 days this week and been at work 10 minutes earlier than I was last week. The WGC critics are a little too NIMBY about this. When this settles down it will be a wonderful new service, yes it's going to be frustrating at times but look at what's running and arrange your travel accordingly for a few weeks.

 

[High Dyke]

I thought the ASDO beacons were supposed to stop any of that...

Is Finsbury Park set up like that, or does that just apply for the ATO sections?

 

[Failed Unit]

I do find it interesting that two of the biggest critics are from WGC and that the loss of the fast from WGC to Finsbury Park does appear to be so 'important'. WGC today has FOUR decent well timed services into and out of KGX that provide much greater flexibility than ever before. Try chasing at Finsbury Park for services into the core, I have done 3/4 days this week and been at work 10 minutes earlier than I was last week. The WGC critics are a little too NIMBY about this. When this settles down it will be a wonderful new service, yes it's going to be frustrating at times but look at what's running and arrange your travel accordingly for a few weeks.

I would love to go direct to be honest. Hopefully one day.

But haven’t managed to change at Finsbury Park. Haven’t yet because of cancellations. Maybe tomorrow.

 

[jon0844]

The train (unit 700152) was terminated at Three Bridges due to a fault with a brake fault @ Horsham that couldn't be remedied. It was agreed for the service to continue to Three Bridges where it could be better dealt with.

What I haven't seen in any of this thread is mention of the 'Operational Incident' at Finsbury Park regarding this train. http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O99188/2018/05/20/advanced . The driver stopped a 12-car train at the 8-car marker and released the doors. There were no reports of anyone falling from the train, the driver relocked the doors and moved to the correct stopping mark. Whether the train then had to await a relief driver to take the service forward or the offending driver was allowed to continue is not recorded.

I heard of another incident with the doors released on the wrong side where people did step off, also at Finsbury Park. Think it happened Monday morning.

 

[jon0844]

Compared to the rest of the week it is good. (Yes low standard). They haven’t cancelled most of the rush hour for once. (At leafy from wgc.)

Think back to last week when I didn’t need to leave for work 30 minutes earlier to get in on time in case of multiple cancellations.

WGC ran well today. One cancelled Cambridge train this afternoon (stuck behind a Horsham to Peterborough train, which had to reverse and by then was some 25+ minutes late so ran fast to Ashwell and Morden I think) and one missing Moorgate train due to a caped inbound service.

Other than that, I think every southbound service to London ran fine.

Not that the day is over! However, this is perhaps one of the best days for a while - even with the old timetable!

 

[Failed Unit]

WGC ran well today. One cancelled Cambridge train this afternoon (stuck behind a Horsham to Peterborough train, which had to reverse and by then was some 25+ minutes late so ran fast to Ashwell and Morden I think) and one missing Moorgate train due to a caped inbound service.

Other than that, I think every southbound service to London ran fine.

Not that the day is over! However, this is perhaps one of the best days for a while - even with the old timetable!

We did have some peak cancellations. 0706, 0806 with a reasonable delay on 0822. Went for 0752 just to ensure I got to work. But agree today was the best day so far

 

[Downthelane]

I would love to go direct to be honest. Hopefully one day.

But haven’t managed to change at Finsbury Park. Haven’t yet because of cancellations. Maybe tomorrow.

It really does work well with no more than five minutes wait for last three mornings. What is surprising though is how many are doing the same thing, the Northern Line must be be quieter as a result for those heading south via London Bridge.

 

[Failed Unit]

It really does work well with no more than five minutes wait for last three mornings. What is surprising though is how many are doing the same thing, the Northern Line must be be quieter as a result for those heading south via London Bridge.

I guess I am unlucky so far. Tonight just got the first train north and changed at st Pancras. Nearly did it on Monday but wasn’t clear how long it was going to take to sort out the routing issue.

Come May 2019 - if it works the 2 per hour going through the core will be my first choice c

 

[bramling]

I do find it interesting that two of the biggest critics are from WGC and that the loss of the fast from WGC to Finsbury Park does appear to be so 'important'. WGC today has FOUR decent well timed services into and out of KGX that provide much greater flexibility than ever before. Try changing at Finsbury Park for services into the core, I have done 3/4 days this week and been at work 10 minutes earlier than I was last week. The WGC critics are a little too NIMBY about this. When this settles down it will be a wonderful new service, yes it's going to be frustrating at times but look at what's running and arrange your travel accordingly for a few weeks.

I suspect the issue at Welwyn GC is more to do with capacity than two extra stops. In the morning peak today's 4tph service is replaced by ... 4tph, except the seating capacity has been reduced from the days when these services were formed of 2x317, and the journey is slower on top of this. Perhaps if Welwyn GC saw some 12-car services in the morning peak then people would be happier. Likewise these services will not be running through the core for another 18 months thanks to Thameslink's failure to deliver its initial promises - so no trade-off benefit here in the form of through journey opportunities.

Of course a lot depends on how busy the trains will be when they arrive at Welwyn GC. That is quite an unknown, and still is until things settle down.

I'd say some of the places further out have a lot more to complain about. The Peterborough line is seeing a nosedive in reliability albeit some extra peak capacity. Letchworth and Hitchin are losing their non-stop services to/from London, as well as not seeing a massive increase in high-peak capacity -- especially until the second Cambridge/Brighton service materialises. Everywhere is already seeing a nosedive in reliability, which will be particularly felt on down journeys, both from London and between local stations. There are also plenty of 8-car services still floating about, both in the peaks and the shoulder peaks - for example I'm hearing that the Royston/King's Cross services have been horrendously overcrowded this week.

What should be a roughly fifteen minute journey from Stevenage to Biggleswade now stands a much bigger chance of taking much longer should the train be delayed somewhere south of London - even more so if stops are then omitted to make up which is what is already being seen.

(PS - am I the only person who absolutely detests the term NIMBY?)

 

[sefton]

Well the service fell off a cliff from St Neots this evening with eight out of eleven southbound trains cancelled between 5 and 10pm.

 

[Failed Unit]

You forgot WGC is also unhappy about losing the direct train to Peterborough. (For single change to the north)

If fast trains stop at Stevenage (like an open access operator might) then this timetable will be pretty good. However the connection at Stevenage is unacceptable now. Changing at KX is ok, but not as desirable.

I am not happy with the new timetable. Maybe I will be in 2020 IF we ever get direct services to the core I might be.

The loss of the fast is unfortunate. The failure to plan an the shambles of this week is painful. We seem to have a high hit of peak cancellations for a route that hasn’t changed much. But GTR don’t seem to indicate when things will improve. 6th June is mentioned. But they are not sounding confident.

 

[Kanrakuq]

The loss of fast services, etc., were always going to irritate some people, but it's the constant 10 minute waits/cancellations at Finsbury
Park because there isn't a driver available which are going to end up sending people over the edge.

Along with the fact that from about 4pm onwards, they seem to be concerned mostly with getting the trains in the right place for tomorrow morning, rather than thinking about how to take everyone home.

 

[infobleep]

Sunday's have been covered quite well which is probably why it hasn't been enforced.
This Sunday's issue wasn't due to lack of driver available, it's due to lack of drivers being competent in the routes , there may be a few more that thought sod that, 1st day on new timetable and knew it was going to be a disaster but overall the issue lies with the planning from gtr not the drivers.
To be honest I doubt it will ever be enforced because there's too many that won't work and gtr know they can't touch them as its not part of the working week.
Morale is not great in gtr and they rely on many favours from traincrew so if they start pushing things it will only backfire.
Out of 50 people at my depot only about 3 sign London bridge high level and they haven't got enough people to conduct, seeing as every train almost is booked through LB then it just shows how poor the planning from gtr is.
They are desperate for DI's at the moment but unless they change their approach and attitude then no-one is going to do it.
No separate licence, no support and the lack of information from managers about what routes trainees need to sign etc doesn't inspire confidence and the instructors end up trying to plan stuff without knowing whether it's correct or not.
I used to be an instructor but it's not worth the extra hassle.

So who in GTR is responsible for the planning? Is it high up management or lower down planning staff?

 

[Downthelane]

I suspect the issue at Welwyn GC is more to do with capacity than two extra stops. In the morning peak today's 4tph service is replaced by ... 4tph, except the seating capacity has been reduced from the days when these services were formed of 2x317, and the journey is slower on top of this.

When has WGC ever had 32 coaches running in and out London with aircon, great acceleration and space for those who are standing in both peaks?

Granted the 700 has less seats but with an effective 15 minute interval between services you waste less time waiting for an over crowded hot and unpleasant 317 and take the slightly slower service if a seat is a must every day.

The 317's were great in 1985 but I think this is real progress.

Granted this week has been dreadful at times but it will improve.

I am arriving at work Farringdon and at home to WGC ten minutes faster each day this week, that's a 100 minutes a week less travelling as a result and that was using the Stopper too!

I got a seat on every train too.

 

[KentDriver]

I can confirm that neither the front or back section on the class 700 from Rainham are declassified.

I got on at Rochester and was told that as I had a standard ticket I was sitting in the wrong section.

(I was sitting in the rear first class)

Rear is declassified on all TL trains, it will state it on the information screens in the coach

 

[paul332]

You lot on the eastern branch seem to have got lucky today. On the BedPan there was a 55-minute gap in northbound local services between around 17.26 and 18.21. Three successive trains cancelled. No trains at Kentish Town, Cricklewood or Hendon. We used to have a 15-minute service. Ancient history.

 

[Failed Unit]

When has WGC ever had 32 coaches running in and out London with aircon, great acceleration and space for those who are standing in both peaks?

Granted the 700 has less seats but with an effective 15 minute interval between services you waste less time waiting for an over crowded hot and unpleasant 317 and take the slightly slower service if a seat is a must every day.

The 317's were great in 1985 but I think this is real progress.

Granted this week has been dreadful at times but it will improve.

I am arriving at work Farringdon and at home to WGC ten minutes faster each day this week, that's a 100 minutes a week less travelling as a result and that was using the Stopper too!

I got a seat on every train too.

Not sure if you are lucky and I am unlucky. But cancellations in the peak is really bad.

Last week for this shift I would have done the following.

0859 WGC - London KX
First Thameslink service to Blackfriars.

Tomorrow
0832 WGC - Finsbury Park
0908 Finsbury Park - Blackfriars.

That is 27 minutes earlier just because the timetable can’t be trusted.

In May 2019 (if ever) I will be on a direct train and lots of spare time.

That is what makes me angry along with Charles Horton’s media statements where he really couldn’t care less his company is shown up as inept again.

That said. The worse lines are North Kent and Brighton mainline for performance so I can be thankful.

 

[Taunton]

I'm not surprised that passengers were angry, couldn't the train have run as booked to Peterborough and skipped some stops on the return journey to recover time? At least the situation would be known from the outset.

Although ultimate operating effect would be the same, that would lead to a greater PPM failure on arrival time measured at the terminus at Peterborough, which as we all know nowadays comes before any passenger convenience.

 

[whoosh]

But if the problem is chronic lack of driver route knowledge, then to my naive non-railway mind, the painful solution is to run fewer trains and re-task the ‘spare’ drivers with learning their new roads.

Have a summer training blitz; re-cast the driver diagrams so they are robust; in the interim run a reduced but reliable service, and be ready to re-launch when the schools return in early September.

But the timetable is already reduced. The Cambridge to Brighton trains should be two an hour, but are only one an hour until December - that's about the most service reduction they could get away with.

Summer training blitz? When numbers off due to weekly leave is effectively doubled (because two weeks together are rostered, the second of which overlaps with the next group's first week), and then the school holidays when not as many people want to do overtime, and more people take daily leave for days out etc.

No, autumn and winter is a better time. But that's miles off. Fancy introducing this timetable in the spring! Before the summer.
And after last autumn and winter...

 

[MikeWM]

Looking on RTT, only 3 of the Cambridge to Brighton services ran today, 15 were cancelled (!). The last one that ran today left Cambridge at...errr...0754.

Clearly all is going very well.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Is Finsbury Park set up like that, or does that just apply for the ATO sections?

I have to admit if Victoria had ASDO, I was relatively certain (as I drove over it) that Finsbury and the others were set up to prevent these sorts of infractions...

 

[TEW]

Although ultimate operating effect would be the same, that would lead to a greater PPM failure on arrival time measured at the terminus at Peterborough, which as we all know nowadays comes before any passenger convenience.

Not that myth again, cancelling intermediate stations goes down as a part cancellation, a PPM failure. So even if the train arrived in to Peterborough on time, it would still be a PPM failure because of the missed stops. Frankly Thameslink's performance this week has been so poor that they are probably not very concerned about PPM figures anyway.

 

[LowLevel]

Yesterday saw over 100 cancellations and today doesn't look any better. The scale to which this has gone wrong is crazy.

 

[Antman]

Looks like more of the same, the 06.00, 06.30 and 06.56 from Rainham all cancelled.

 

[infobleep]

It is down to a number of factors.

I know a few individuals who have a lot to answer for and directly contributed to the chaos.

Are such individuals likely to have disaplinary meetings or sunilar over this? I mean it's a big problem. I've never been directly employed in a large private firm. I know of some who'd get rid of you fairly swiftly if you made a huge mistake like this.

However it does depend on circumstances surrounding the people involved.

As long as the people whose fault it isn't aren't made a scapegoat.

 

[infobleep]

No separate licence, no support and the lack of information from managers about what routes trainees need to sign etc doesn't inspire confidence and the instructors end up trying to plan stuff without knowing whether it's correct or not.
I used to be an instructor but it's not worth the extra hassle.

Are the managers former train drivers or guards who've worked up the ladder?

 

[infobleep]

The option is in the contract, just needs some one to pay.

Well that probably won't happen until they feel a need for some good news or their is a franchise change and they need to big it up with something.

I'm being ratherc cynical but I just can't help it.

 

[infobleep]

Cannot argue with that logic I completely agree with you

Plumstead and Slade Green had 6tph off peak before, I don't see that as a bad service, it's better than what the Penge East line has, 4tph and nothing can't be done about bringing this up to 6tph.

I can understand the need to call at the Greenwich line stops, particularly Greenwich and Deptford, or else they'll fall back to 4tph

This whole debacle says one thing related to the North Kent line "If it ain't broke, why fix it!" All they've done is creat a worse service for Medway and to an extent Abbey Wood, Woolwich Arsenal and Charlton (stations that have earned 8tph) where as before you could get a seat because of the few stations called at, the Medway trains are now packed by the time we get to Dartford, there's barely any space for people to get on by the time Woolwich Arsenal is called at let alone Deptford or Greenwich.

It's only going to get worse

I thought passenger numbers were falling?