Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[Hadders]

they are similar rural communities as Arlesey and Elstree.

I'm not sure I'd describe Elstree as a rural community!

 

[fusionblue]

Many of the stations in South-Londonland are not actually in London

I'm going to assume you mean South of London land and not necessarily South London land?

Having suffered in the South with many many others an appalling Rail service that cannot regularly get us home to any form of timetable, we have suffered like you too.

A few weeks ago someone threw a bike onto the track at Beckenham Hill late evening. Southeastern jumped into action, was regularly tweeting updates and got bottles of water supplied to the trains that were stuck. Thameslink simply never mentioned it entirely and cancelled three (of the last four) London-bound trains.

The Sevenoaks route has always felt like the "unwanted stepchild of Thameslink" and that prevailing attitude has carried forward to today, so i wouldnt really think things are improving.

 

[hwl]

Govia statement says that they're running '200 extra trains each weekday across the network compared to the period prior to the introduction of the May timetable.'

Can that be true?

Source: Tom Edwards at the BBC: https://twitter.com/BBCTomEdwards/status/1020320918789394432

Yes there are (if they run) about 220 more on week days across the whole GTR network.


1. As a reminder even after losing plenty of services to Thameslink, Southern run 67.4% of all GTR services since May TT change. The timetable change has been very good for Southern and vastly improved the performance stats.

2. You could cancel 37% of GN services and GTR would still be running more trains than before the May TT change...

3. GN only run 17.6% of GTR services (as comparison Southern's local (i.e. non BML) "Coastway" services out of Brighton are 17.2%)


I don't work for GTR, I just have to use them...

 

[jon0844]

I'm going to assume you mean South of London land and not necessarily South London land?



A few weeks ago someone threw a bike onto the track at Beckenham Hill late evening. Southeastern jumped into action, was regularly tweeting updates and got bottles of water supplied to the trains that were stuck. Thameslink simply never mentioned it entirely and cancelled three (of the last four) London-bound trains.

The Sevenoaks route has always felt like the "unwanted stepchild of Thameslink" and that prevailing attitude has carried forward to today, so i wouldnt really think things are improving.

Recently a TL train was used to move hundreds of bottles of water to a station to give to people who were travelling on a short formed train. It wasn't delayed, just busy. A lot of what happens isn't down to control or management, rather people on the ground who can think quick on their feet.

 

[OwenB]

You could cancel 37% of GN services and GTR would still be running more trains than before the May TT change...

Wowsers! Fair to say the PR department earned their corn when drafting the press release. Fair play. Can't help than to think it just enrages their passengers, although I guess at this stage it's about protecting the franchise and the management jobs. Politics, eh?

Thank you to ComUtoR for some of the info yesterday evening. Very interesting.

 

[physics34]

Seems to have gone under the radar but Peter Wilkinson, the man who told us all he was going have a bust up with the unions, has left his directors role at the DfT's OLR2 (operator of last resort 2, set up to possibly take over from GTR if the review proves that GTR have failed in their obligations).

Im not sure if this is a precursor to GTR actually losing the franchise ie A conflict of interest, or if it is for other reasons.

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-demands-to-know-whats-going-on-as-director-resigns/

 

[hwl]

Seems to have gone under the radar but Peter Wilkinson, the man who told us all he was going have a bust up with the unions, has left his directors role at the DfT's OLR2 (operator of last resort 2, set up to possibly take over from GTR if the review proves that GTR have failed in their obligations).

Im not sure if this is a precursor to GTR actually losing the franchise ie A conflict of interest, or if it is for other reasons.

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-demands-to-know-whats-going-on-as-director-resigns/

Covered in this thread on Tuesday.

DfT has a fleet of OLR companies (most founded at privatisation) that gradually get burnt up with various DfT senior staff as directors while they are (virtually) dormant, the DfT directors rotate when someone leaves DfT (the reason for PW becoming a director originally) or when the company is stepped up to active as the first in line OLR.

OLR2 has actually been around since the 1996 under various different names with the longest living being "Cross Country Trains".

Probably other reasons, the lead DfT staff member director of OLR (1) aka LNER resigned on Monday (to avoid direct DfT control implications) and took over as sole director of OLR2 on Monday so it just marks an admin change with OLR2 now being the next company in line.

 

[physics34]

Covered in this thread on Tuesday.

DfT has a fleet of OLR companies (most founded at privatisation) that gradually get burnt up with various DfT senior staff as directors while they are (virtually) dormant, the DfT directors rotate when someone leaves DfT (the reason for PW becoming a director originally) or when the company is stepped up to active as the first in line OLR.

OLR2 has actually been around since the 1996 under various different names with the longest living being "Cross Country Trains".

Probably other reasons, the lead DfT staff member director of OLR (1) aka LNER resigned on Monday (to avoid direct DfT control implications) and took over as sole director of OLR2 on Monday so it just marks an admin change with OLR2 now being the next company in line.

ok fair enough, must have missed it. Seems like the RMT once again trying to whip up a storm in a teacup. Was confused about seeing "Cross Country Trains" on the company list? Wonder why they used that name!

 

[swt_passenger]

ok fair enough, must have missed it. Seems like the RMT once again trying to whip up a storm in a teacup. Was confused about seeing "Cross Country Trains" on the company list? Wonder why they used that name!

They started with a list of companies named after Streets, ordered ABCDE etc. The names gradually change over the years, if you look at Wilkinson’s present Dft company posts they include a few familiar names:
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/officers/Dht8uTzTbtjQqil0vj3NyKs1TlY/appointments
Scroll down to the bottom of any company page and it shows any previous company names.

 

[hwl]

Wowsers! Fair to say the PR department earned their corn when drafting the press release. Fair play. Can't help than to think it just enrages their passengers, although I guess at this stage it's about protecting the franchise and the management jobs. Politics, eh?

Thank you to ComUtoR for some of the info yesterday evening. Very interesting.

The PR department (or rather a former Evening standard Journalist*) probably had very little work to do, the numbers largely do all the work themselves.

*It might explain why so little coverage appears in the Standard on GTR...

 

[hwl]

ok fair enough, must have missed it. Seems like the RMT once again trying to whip up a storm in a teacup. Was confused about seeing "Cross Country Trains" on the company list? Wonder why they used that name!

From the era when XC was Virgin operated and ended up with Arriva but they needed a fall back option...

 

[OwenB]

The PR department (or rather a former Evening standard Journalist*) probably had very little work to do, the numbers largely do all the work themselves.

*It might explain why so little coverage appears in the Standard on GTR...

Matthew Beard. Well I never. Something about keeping your enemies close...

 

[infobleep]

Do the directors of these companies get paid much?

 

[MML]

They have to pay the market rate to attract the right people with the calibre to successfully deliver an efficient and well run train operating company, proud at delivering superior customer service. Worth every penny.



And as is the norm, the remuneration committee chair is on the board of directors too. Fat cats voting for their own pay rises.
Snouts in the trough, while the customers fund their excesses.

Even the ex Evening Standard journalist, aka GTR spin doctor will have trouble defending these excesses. Though I suspect, he and his propaganda merchants are equally handsomely paid.

 

[swt_passenger]

Do the directors of these companies get paid much?

The DfT directors of one of these dormant companies will undertake the role as part of their normal job.

 

[Ambient Sheep]

What GTR and some on this forum continually fail to grasp is that the impact of cancelling a mid-afternoon train from somewhere in south-Londonland to another place in south-Londonland is much less for passengers than cancelling a train from say Harlington to London or Elstree to London or Arlesey to London in the am peak, because the latter three journeys would normally occur less frequently and there are no alternative means of completing those journeys.

I'm not sure I'd describe Elstree as a rural community!

Quite! I was about to say the same thing. Arlesey fair enough, and I do take The Box Photter's general point, but from Elstree you can take the 107 bus to High Barnet tube station (or to New Barnet on the ECML if you're feeling particularly deranged) and looking at the map I'm sure something similar is possible at Harlington. To say there "are no alternative means of completing those journeys" seems a very strange thing to say.

Trust me, having grown up in a rural village that was lucky enough to have a railway station but no buses worth talking about, so if the trains were screwed you lost everything, I really do get the general point, but to give Elstree and Harlington as examples seems... decidedly odd.

 

[bramling]

I totally agree with the principle of your post but you have a complete misunderstanding of where Thameslink runs south of London. Many of the stations in South-Londonland are not actually in London, they are similar rural communities as Arlesey and Elstree. There have been too many posts on here about how much worse it is North of the river because my specific train doesn't run and those of us South have no problems. Having suffered in the South with many many others an appalling Rail service that cannot regularly get us home to any form of timetable, we have suffered like you too. So could we please avoid the generics.

I think generally people on here fully sympathise and appreciate that things are just as bad for people south of the river, just that there seems to be more from the north side on here.

Arlesey certainly isn't rural, however it's an example of a comparatively busy station which has overnight become pretty much reliant on Thameslink's unreliable service. There are plenty of other examples both sides of the river.

 

[Failed Unit]

Yes there are (if they run) about 220 more on week days across the whole GTR network.


1. As a reminder even after losing plenty of services to Thameslink, Southern run 67.4% of all GTR services since May TT change. The timetable change has been very good for Southern and vastly improved the performance stats.

2. You could cancel 37% of GN services and GTR would still be running more trains than before the May TT change...

3. GN only run 17.6% of GTR services (as comparison Southern's local (i.e. non BML) "Coastway" services out of Brighton are 17.2%)


I don't work for GTR, I just have to use them...

I must admit now I remember central trains manipulation of statistics in this way when they split through services. The delay % was reduced as the journey was now 2 trains so only ½ was delayed. So yes the statistics looked better except if you were a through passenger who’s journey took 1 hour longer as what previously was a direct service was split in 2 with the 2 halves not a valid connection.

Didn’t realise how easy it was to manipulate southern with the number of trains operated but I know when you look at GTRs performance many commented that it was often in the 80% area ignoring at the time some of the groups we hittin 80% cancelled or very late. Southern metro and coast has hidden issues well.

 

[The Box Photter]

Quite! I was about to say the same thing. Arlesey fair enough, and I do take The Box Photter's general point, but from Elstree you can take the 107 bus to High Barnet tube station (or to New Barnet on the ECML if you're feeling particularly deranged) and looking at the map I'm sure something similar is possible at Harlington. To say there "are no alternative means of completing those journeys" seems a very strange thing to say.

Trust me, having grown up in a rural village that was lucky enough to have a railway station but no buses worth talking about, so if the trains were screwed you lost everything, I really do get the general point, but to give Elstree and Harlington as examples seems... decidedly odd.

I was attempting to point out that unlike Croydon and other south London suburbs, which have a reasonable alternative of frequent TfL bus routes well into the evening, those of us living north of St Albans have pretty much no alternative means of getting home if Thameslink cancel the train you were expecting to catch. Our bus service pretty much ceases after 18.00. That's the impact of a cancelled train for us.

 

[AM9]

I was attempting to point out that unlike Croydon and other south London suburbs, which have a reasonable alternative of frequent TfL bus routes well into the evening, those of us living north of St Albans have pretty much no alternative means of getting home if Thameslink cancel the train you were expecting to catch. Our bus service pretty much ceases after 18.00. That's the impact of a cancelled train for us.

For Harpenden and Luton it's not that bad. The route 321 works on more than 1 bus per hour until 23:51Mon-Sat and hourly until 23:51 on Sundays. There are probably some areas within TFL zones where evening services aren't any better than that.

 

[Hadders]

4 car trains between Cambridge and Kings Cross this morning. I’m on the 1004 from Stevenage which is proper wedged.

 

[OwenB]

4 car trains between Cambridge and Kings Cross this morning. I’m on the 1004 from Stevenage which is proper wedged.

Seeing as there's now far fewer weekend services, is there an operation reason why they don't use 8 car trains? Presumably there's more stock idle with fewer services running.

 

[Agent_Squash]

I must admit now I remember central trains manipulation of statistics in this way when they split through services. The delay % was reduced as the journey was now 2 trains so only ½ was delayed. So yes the statistics looked better except if you were a through passenger who’s journey took 1 hour longer as what previously was a direct service was split in 2 with the 2 halves not a valid connection.

Didn’t realise how easy it was to manipulate southern with the number of trains operated but I know when you look at GTRs performance many commented that it was often in the 80% area ignoring at the time some of the groups we hittin 80% cancelled or very late. Southern metro and coast has hidden issues well.

I appreciate GTR have been truly awful for many but they've not resorted to manipulating statistics just yet. In fact, several trains that were previously two (Peterborough-Horsham, for example) are now one, making them more prone to delays.

There are several members on this forum who seem to absolutely love GTR-bashing. Southern's reliability has gone up because the timetable in many areas has been vastly simplified (there was a BBC London report a few days before the change complaining about the simplification of Metro routes, for example). Sure, there are still some issues, but I'd like to hear more about these 'hidden issues' plaguing the coast and SN Metro.

 

[Hadders]

Seeing as there's now far fewer weekend services, is there an operation reason why they don't use 8 car trains? Presumably there's more stock idle with fewer services running.

This was announced as 8 cars on the departure board but only 4 turned up and a few minutes late too so I suspect there was an issue on this particular service with the other unit.

 

[OwenB]

This was announced as 8 cars on the departure board but only 4 turned up and a few minutes late too so I suspect there was an issue on this particular service with the other unit.

Ah okay, maybe some kind of fault. At least I hope they're not running just 4 car services on purpose!

 

[MML]

Oh how I remember the 4-car 319s turning up at Gatwick wedged on a late Sunday afternoon, packed with day trippers returning from Brighton. The timetable planners in those days seemed to base the schedule on a wet weekend in April rather than a mid-Summer weekend when families (the majority with screaming babies and boisterous kids ) chose to spend the day at the seaside.

I'm guessing London-Cambridge has day-trip traffic in both directions. 8-car or 12-car would be nice for the reduced Sunday service.

 

[RichardN]

I was attempting to point out that unlike Croydon and other south London suburbs, which have a reasonable alternative of frequent TfL bus routes well into the evening, those of us living north of St Albans have pretty much no alternative means of getting home if Thameslink cancel the train you were expecting to catch. Our bus service pretty much ceases after 18.00. That's the impact of a cancelled train for us.

For every Arlesey there is a Balcombe south of the river. Hourly off peak service delivered by Thameslink. Bus service finishes early etc.

 

[Failed Unit]

I appreciate GTR have been truly awful for many but they've not resorted to manipulating statistics just yet. In fact, several trains that were previously two (Peterborough-Horsham, for example) are now one, making them more prone to delays.

There are several members on this forum who seem to absolutely love GTR-bashing. Southern's reliability has gone up because the timetable in many areas has been vastly simplified (there was a BBC London report a few days before the change complaining about the simplification of Metro routes, for example). Sure, there are still some issues, but I'd like to hear more about these 'hidden issues' plaguing the coast and SN Metro.

Just interested in your view on statistics.

Today GN inners are 100% ontime

Very good but they are running 2tph rather than 4tph in the original published timetable so should it be 50% cancelled?

I personally would say yes and all cancellations that happen should be shown if they were on the May 22nd timetable. Others may disagree but we can claim delay repay on them.

Are they manipulating the statistics by removing trains from journey planners (to make customers lives easier) or is this practice OK?

 

[Agent_Squash]

Just interested in your view on statistics.

Today GN inners are 100% ontime

Very good but they are running 2tph rather than 4tph in the original published timetable so should it be 50% cancelled?

I personally would say yes and all cancellations that happen should be shown if they were on the May 22nd timetable. Others may disagree but we can claim delay repay on them.

Are they manipulating the statistics by removing trains from journey planners (to make customers lives easier) or is this practice OK?

Why should the statistics be based on a timetable that has been superseded (albeit an emergency one?)

You’ve also ignored my question on the major issues you’ve alleged face the coast and Metro services.

 

[Failed Unit]

Why should the statistics be based on a timetable that has been superseded (albeit an emergency one?)

You’ve also ignored my question on the major issues you’ve alleged face the coast and Metro services.

I can’t comment on these issues I am afraid as I don’t use these services so don’t know how they were like before/ afterwards.

Ok you could argue that the 22nd May timetable is gone. So to base it on what is published today is acceptable (although many people would have planned their journey on it as the 15th July timetable was published late)

But the question still applies between the 22nd May and 15th July where trains were removed on the day and excluded from ppm data. During this period a published timetable didn’t exist so I think it was a but naughty of them. I know I have a low opinion of GTR but it was Charles Horton lying on national TV on May 23rd not me. We still have to get an apology out of GTR. A real one not a we are only saying sorry because we are told to but it is all network rails fault anyway.