Thameslink Rolling Stock Contract Finally Done!!

[A-driver]

You do realise the ops side will be there post franchise just as much as fleet will be? You don't replace whole departments with franchise change you know. Don't think the distance between the depots isn't that far, especially they the areas of both touch.

Actually the location is not just coincidence but was chosen as there needs to be a depot on the GN side for the fleet with the newly expanded Cricklewood serving MML and Three Bridges servicing BML in case of a Core closure so you don't know the reasoning as well as seem to think you do.

As I've said before the final decisions over the future have yet to be made, Caldwell is a good example of this as the long term plan is closure but nothing been said about when or how. Quite frankly its too early to say for sure as there is still time for things to change.



I know where the works are, I was there last week. I just haven't been given the latest layout of it. Not a case of what I've misunderstood but what's been stated. I never said work south of Hornsey depot by the way, said county end of the current depot, seems you confused my comment yet talk about that location.



Why do you think that?

I'm not going to keep arguing with you but you are presenting rumour as fact on here which is wrong.

I can assure you that (as I have said many times now!) the 2 depots at Hornsey will not be connected or linked in any way. If the GN & TL franchises are split then you will have a different TOC operating Hornsey current depot and the Hornsey Siemens depot. There is also no physical link between the 2 depots-the plans have been pinned up on the walls of GN driver depots for a couple of months now so we know how the layout is changing for road learning purposes.

As the franchises are yet to be finalised the ops department won't be as it is now necessarily. Of course it will largely be the same staff but there is no need to brief FCC ops staff on the future depot as it is of little current relevance.

Anyway-reading through your past posts I thought you were platform staff at blackfriars? And you have said your info on the Thameslink work comes from a second hand source?

As I say, I don't want to argue with you but you are confidently posting certain rumours and misunderstood info as fact when it very clearly isn't. I don't have any official info as a driver but I can assure you that combined with common sense (even for the railway), the plans which are pinned up in depots and knowledge of how these contracts work Hornsey will be 2 completely seperate and unrelated depots for different rolling stock with 700s not visiting the existing depot and older rolling stock not visiting the new depot.

 

[Class377/5]

I'm not going to keep arguing with you but you are presenting rumour as fact on here which is wrong.

Really? Your stating things that can be considered the same.

I can assure you that (as I have said many times now!) the 2 depots at Hornsey will not be connected or linked in any way. If the GN & TL franchises are split then you will have a different TOC operating Hornsey current depot and the Hornsey Siemens depot. There is also no physical link between the 2 depots-the plans have been pinned up on the walls of GN driver depots for a couple of months now so we know how the layout is changing for road learning purposes.

The TL & GN franchises won't be spilt (if it even is) until the early 2020's so plenty of time with a single TOC dealing with both halves of Hornsey depot. Is it the confirmed final layout that pinned up?

As the franchises are yet to be finalised the ops department won't be as it is now necessarily. Of course it will largely be the same staff but there is no need to brief FCC ops staff on the future depot as it is of little current relevance.

I disagree as the depots direct affect ops. Thinking other wise is silly.

Anyway-reading through your past posts I thought you were platform staff at blackfriars? And you have said your info on the Thameslink work comes from a second hand source?

I very much not platform staff. Perhaps you have me confused with someone else. Been a long time since I was front line.

As I say, I don't want to argue with you but you are confidently posting certain rumours and misunderstood info as fact when it very clearly isn't. I don't have any official info as a driver but I can assure you that combined with common sense (even for the railway), the plans which are pinned up in depots and knowledge of how these contracts work Hornsey will be 2 completely seperate and unrelated depots for different rolling stock with 700s not visiting the existing depot and older rolling stock not visiting the new depot.

You state that you have no official information yet I can state I have official info from various areas. But I agree the arguing isn't great, but wonder what you have been told yourself. Common sense? On a railway? Well I never

While I am not as familiar with future Hornsey's operating policy but nothing is written in stone.

 

[starrymarkb]

Why has the new stock been designated as Class 700? Apologies if this has already been addressed, but I can't find any reference to it anywhere!

I'm wondering if it's because it will be capable of ATO?

Though I seem to think that Crossrail units will be ATO also and I'm sure someone said they will have a 3XX class number?

EDIT: Oops someone replied to that earlier.

It's part of a new numbering range that the Rolling Stock Library have made available

600 is for new DMU/DEMUs
700 is for EMUs
800 is for high speed (200km/h+) ie IEP and HS2 stock

Hopefully the numbering in these ranges will be kept more sequential, but I wouldn't bet on it!

Some designs had class numbers allocated before the new ranges became available. IIRC these are the 345 for Crossrail and the 374 (e320) for Eurostar

 

[A-driver]

Considering the shed is pretty much built and the track paths have been cleared through 'old Hornsey' the plans pinned up are final and any changes will be minor.

But as I say (and as you still fail to understand) the 2 depots are a long way apart and will be run seperately with each dealing with its own rolling stock.

 

[Minstral25]

Does anyone yet have details of the Interior specification of the stock. I'm quite interested in the layout when they have to be both comfortable outer-suburban long distance train and tube train in London?

I'd expect all the depots will remain totally separate as Siemens have a contract to maintain the fleet of 700's and deliver a certain number for operation daily. Whereas the other units will remain in the TOC for maintenance. I can't see either side looking after the others units.

Hence it will be rare for 377's to enter the new depot at Three Bridges and will continue to get maintenance at Brighton and Selhurst and the two Hornsey depots will remain operationally separate for maintenance. However Drivers may work from either depot in Hornsey so there may be some merger in that respect.

 

[D365]

Does anyone yet have details of the interior specification of the stock. I'm quite interested in the layout when they have to be both comfortable outer-suburban long distance train and tube train in London?

Well, we have had some interior concept pictures from TRSP authorities/Siemens way back when. Can't remember off the top of my head but there is stuff out there, perhaps previously mentioned on these forums.

I'd expect all the depots will remain totally separate as Siemens have a contract to maintain the fleet of 700s and deliver a certain number for operation daily. Whereas the other units will remain in the TOC for maintenance. I can't see either side looking after the others units.

I think we've established that will be the case! Aside from overnight stabling and servicing of 700s, which I imagine may be the responsibility of the TOC. Siemens will take care of full maintenance/exams at their new depots.

... However Drivers may work from either depot in Hornsey so there may be some merger in that respect.

If this is true, that's convenient for crew as the depots are (will be) right next door to each other

 

[swt_passenger]

Does anyone yet have details of the Interior specification of the stock. I'm quite interested in the layout when they have to be both comfortable outer-suburban long distance train and tube train in London?

The spec the DfT asked for is online here:

http://webarchive.nationalarchives....nkrollingstock/rollingstockhighlevespecif.pdf

...the accommodation is detailed on page 13, and it is clearly not 'tube train' based. Will be interesting to see what Siemens have actually come up with, presumably more details will emerge shortly.

I'd expect all the depots will remain totally separate as Siemens have a contract to maintain the fleet of 700's and deliver a certain number for operation daily. Whereas the other units will remain in the TOC for maintenance. I can't see either side looking after the others units.

That may not be as cut and dried as you think, because Hornsey and Three Bridges are not sized to berth the full fleet, I think they will be similar in purpose to the Siemens SWT depot at Northam. Siemens basically only do the in depth maintenance/exams of units as they return to the depot periodically, the TOC staff look after most of the overnight maintenance of the 450s and 444s that end up elsewhere, such as at Fratton and Bournemouth etc. So 700s will still end up at other places for overnight servicing and stabling.

 

[jon0844]

The new depot north of the current Hornsey one is certainly not very big. It looks like it might fit in 4 or 5 bays at most.

What's more, I can't see where they can stable trains overnight or off peak, as the depot is built on what used to be a load of room for this!

Sent from my C6603 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

[swt_passenger]

That's exactly what I'm getting at. When someone worked it out last year, the two new depots had space for about 1/4 of the fleet (or less) between them. Hence 3/4 of the new fleet will be using existing stabling facilities and/or depots - perhaps even the older part of Hornsey...

 

[D365]

That's exactly what I'm getting at. When someone worked it out last year, the two new depots had space for about 1/4 of the fleet (or less) between them. Hence 3/4 of the new fleet will be using existing stabling facilities and/or depots - perhaps even the older part of Hornsey...

I heard mutterings that Nene Carriage Sidings in Peterborough were to be moved or extended north of the redeveloped Thameslink platforms in the future, to remove the situation where trains have to terminate or start at the current P4/5 instead of the off-peak/standard P3 in order to access the sidings, which are located between the ECML and the line to Ely/Cambridge, which sweeps underneath.

Also, the future of Bedford Caudwell is still to be decided, I hear - stabling? Not overly familiar with that area.

 

[fgwrich]

That's exactly what I'm getting at. When someone worked it out last year, the two new depots had space for about 1/4 of the fleet (or less) between them. Hence 3/4 of the new fleet will be using existing stabling facilities and/or depots - perhaps even the older part of Hornsey...

Just hopefully not certain sidings on the SouthEastern side. Certainly the Siemens depots seem to work rather well for both South West and London Midland who as you say, regularly stable their units not always at Siemens depots but do make sure they receive regular maintenance at either Northam or Northampton. Incidentally, there is a picture of a Desiro City mocked up in SWT 'Suburban Red' knocking around somewhere courtesy of the SouthWestern Alliance.

 

[jon0844]

If they intend to stable any trains in the Southeastern area, they might as well skip painting the trains or putting on vinyls...

 

[Chris125]

Incidentally, there is a picture of a Desiro City mocked up in SWT 'Suburban Red' knocking around somewhere courtesy of the SouthWestern Alliance.

Indeed there is, hopefully a sign of things to come.

Chris

 

[Class377/5]

Does anyone yet have details of the Interior specification of the stock. I'm quite interested in the layout when they have to be both comfortable outer-suburban long distance train and tube train in London?

I'd expect all the depots will remain totally separate as Siemens have a contract to maintain the fleet of 700's and deliver a certain number for operation daily. Whereas the other units will remain in the TOC for maintenance. I can't see either side looking after the others units.

Hence it will be rare for 377's to enter the new depot at Three Bridges and will continue to get maintenance at Brighton and Selhurst and the two Hornsey depots will remain operationally separate for maintenance. However Drivers may work from either depot in Hornsey so there may be some merger in that respect.

Siemens have been a little protective of the internal design when I inquired with them prior to the deal being completed.

However for Stabling there is actually a DfT strategy document but since the routes have changed its out of date now. But some useful data from that document. Not all are changed from now

MML Stabling
Bedford Jowetts - 5x 12 cars
Bedford Carriage Sidings - 14x 8 cars
Bedford Cauldwell - 1x 8 cars, 6x 12 cars
Cricklewood - 11x 8 cars, 4x 12 cars

ECML Stabling
Peterborough - 5x 12 cars
Cambridge - 3x 12 cars
Welwyn Garden City - 4x 8 cars
Siemens Hornsey - 5x 8 cars, 3x 12 cars (not sure if there's been any changes to this)

BML/Southern Stabling
Siemens Three Bridge depot (note this is just stabling and not additional maintenance)
Up Side - 2x 8 cars, 4x 12 cars
Down Side - 5x 12 cars
Tillgate Sidings - 4x 8 cars

Horsham Sidings - 5x 12 cars (new build sidings)
Preston Park - 2x 12 cars
Brighton Down yard - 3x 12 cars

Kent Stabling
Bellingham - 2x 8 cars
Orpington - 4x 8 cars
Sevenoaks - 1x 8 cars

There are many more locations but changes to routes means these aren't going to happen. These are only 88 of the expected 115 trains accounted for, although daily requirements in the contract are for around 106 units currently.

 

[MCR247]

Bellingham? Isn't that where First Capital Connect gets its 377/5s repainted?

 

[Class377/5]

Bellingham? Isn't that where First Capital Connect gets its 377/5s repainted?

No that's where the 319's get repainted. The 377/5 that get tagged are hit at Ashford.

 

[jon0844]

I'm noticing a fair few FCC 313s on the GN side appear to have been hit, going by how worn the vinyls are (after it has been removed). Any idea where these are being done?

 

[swt_passenger]

BML/Southern Stabling
Siemens Three Bridge depot ...
Tillgate Sidings - 4x 8 cars

Thanks for all that info - I think we discussed this point that normal stabling would be spread all over the place quite a while back, about the time they announced that Hornsey would shrink and Threee Bridges would expand a bit...

I hadn't heard of Tillgate sidings before now, are those the ones that were added to the overall Three Bridges setup after the original planning application went in?

I think there were to be a few extra sidings being built, possibly on the western side of the new ROC, which would make the ROC hemmed in with sidings on both sides - although that could have changed subsequently...

 

[Class377/5]

Thanks for all that info - I think we discussed this point that normal stabling would be spread all over the place quite a while back, about the time they announced that Hornsey would shrink and Threee Bridges would expand a bit...

I hadn't heard of Tillgate sidings before now, are those the ones that were added to the overall Three Bridges setup after the original planning application went in?

I think there were to be a few extra sidings being built, possibly on the western side of the new ROC, which would make the ROC hemmed in with sidings on both sides - although that could have changed subsequently...

Yes sorry the are the sidings off the Horsham line, eight cars only.

I think after the discussion I asked a few questions and got those numbers actually.

The ROC isn't so hemmed in as its set back.

 

[prod_pep]

I'm noticing a fair few FCC 313s on the GN side appear to have been hit, going by how worn the vinyls are (after it has been removed). Any idea where these are being done?

Graffiti seems to have been a problem with these for a long time now, even going back to the days of blue and grey. Welwyn Garden City sidings must surely be one of the problem areas.

 

[JB25]

No that's where the 319's get repainted. The 377/5 that get tagged are hit at Ashford.

319s get repainted? Really? Because I see way too many still rolling around in Southern Green. :roll: What has taken FCC so long?

 

[MCR247]

We were saying that 319s/377s get "repainted" at certain locations as some of the stabling points for the trains are notorious for being where graffiti 'artists' cover the stock.

 

[A-driver]

319s get repainted? Really? Because I see way too many still rolling around in Southern Green. :roll: What has taken FCC so long?

I doubt FCC will bother paying out for them to be reprinted anyway-they won't be around for much longer (the units I mean (although possibly the company to!)) so doubt it is worth the cost.

 

[transmanche]

I doubt FCC will bother paying out for them to be reprinted anyway-they won't be around for much longer (the units I mean (although possibly the company to!)) so doubt it is worth the cost.

Although they could paint them in a generic grey primer (as WAGN did) to make them look a bit less scruffy.

 

[A-driver]

Although they could paint them in a generic grey primer (as WAGN did) to make them look a bit less scruffy.

Still costs money-they all have FCC written up the side so I doubt they will do any more than that.

 

[Class377/5]

Still costs money-they all have FCC written up the side so I doubt they will do any more than that.

Its shockingly expensive to get units painted. Also don't forget that in the last year of the franchise the DfT has to sign off on additional spending. With the franchise currently ending in April 2014 and the September 2014 extension not yet signed for, its DfT to sign off on expensive works. Also that any reprinting now will be removed on a few years time mend is not valve for money.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Its shockingly expensive to get units painted. Also don't forget that in the last year of the franchise the DfT has to sign off on additional spending. With the franchise currently ending in April 2014 and the September 2014 extension not yet signed for, its DfT to sign off on expensive works. Also that any reprinting now will be removed on a few years time mend is not valve for money.

That's one thing to be said for the 'Scotland's Railways' livery: The DfT (or ORR, or whoever) should devise interior and exterior branding for routes/regions/TOC areas which stay with the stock regardless of who holds the franchise but for a small panel on each vehicle where the franchise holder can apply their logo. Espicially seeing as all the new stock ordered by FirstGroup in the early 2000s has that horrible purple on practically every surface inside! The 175s and 180s look a state now, especially those no longer with FG TOCs where some degree of 'un-firsting' has taken place! [/rant]