Thameslink prosecutions query - railcard expired

[Travel2]

I bought a Thameslink ticket from Gatwick to kentish Town on the Trainline App and it had my Network Railcard as default reduction for the ticket. I then collected the ticket at the machine. When I was on the train,an inspector got on. I got my ticket out and opened the app to show my railcard. When I opened the railcard,it had expired 3rd July- 20 days ago. I said it was an error - I genuinely hadnt realised. He said he was issuing me a penaly fare notice. I then went to the app to buy the railcard.he then said he culdn't do the penalty notice and said he had to forward it to Thameslink Prosecutions. It was not my intension to evade. I thought it would help if I showed I could update my railcard, but this caused more problems.
Any advice? How bad is this?What action are they likely to take?
Iam really worried.

 

[30907]

Fairly standard procedure with expired railcards is to report you so that they can investigate your travel history.

You will eventually (but within 6 months) receive a letter from GTR, and if you engage with them they are likely to offer to settle out of court. Expect to pay the full fare for the journey plus an admin fee of around £60 - if they see you had done this in the previous weeks the total may be higher.

 

[Travel2]

Hi, thank you. I think because I renewed my Railcard while he was processing the penalty fare,he seemed to think I was trying to evade the situation.I just wanted to show that I had intent to renew. Will this have caused problem - IE.bacuse I renewed my railcard after the ticket? Or is that irrelevant?

 

[Haywain]

I think because I renewed my Railcard while he was processing the penalty fare,he seemed to think I was trying to evade the situation.

It's pretty much what someone chancing it would do, so it is, or was, very relevant.

 

[Titfield]

I dont think renewing the railcard was the cause of the Inspector deciding to change his mind and issue a report for further investigation. Rather i think he was reminded of what I think is a standing order to refer all such cases (expired railcard) for further investigation. From what we see on here investigating a persons booking history is standard practice for no / expired / wrong railcard.

 

[Travel2]

I have no other similar history as all my previous journeys were covered by railcard. This is a genuine mistake. I'm just afraid I look guilty. Is the main thing the journey history? What happens now? Should I contact them at the prisections email and explain or wait to receive a notice/letter? Thanks

 

[Haywain]

I'm just afraid I look guilty.

You are, but it is unlikely to go to court.

wait to receive a notice/letter?

Wait.

 

[soil]

Hi, thank you. I think because I renewed my Railcard while he was processing the penalty fare,he seemed to think I was trying to evade the situation.I just wanted to show that I had intent to renew. Will this have caused problem - IE.bacuse I renewed my railcard after the ticket? Or is that irrelevant?

A Penalty Fare is a resolution for not having a valid ticket and applies at the time the PF is issued.
If you renew the railcard, then the situation would be:

1. upon boarding - you committed the criminal offence of ticketless travel (Railway Byelaw 18), albeit you weren't aware, unfortunately that's not an excuse
2. he notices that your railcard is expired, and decides to resolve this with a civil penalty, i.e. a penalty fare
3. before he's issued this, you renew your railcard. This means your ticket is now valid. It wasn't valid when you boarded the train, but that's not relevant for penalty fares - it's only about the state of the ticket when the PF is issued.
4. therefore if he were to issue you with a PF at that point, the PF would be void, and you'd probably able to get it cancelled on appeal.
5. as such he has two choices - report you for prosecution (or out of court settlement at probably £150 instead of £50), or just do nothing.
6. Given that he's already said he's giving you a PF as punishment for your carelessness, "doing nothing" is an unlikely outcome.

 

[Haywain]

1. upon boarding - you committed the criminal offence of ticketless travel (Railway Byelaw 18), albeit you weren't aware, unfortunately that's not an excuse because it's a strict liability offence
2. he notices that your railcard is expired, and decides to resolve this with a civil penalty, i.e. a penalty fare
3. before he's issued this, you renew your railcard. This means your ticket is now valid. It wasn't valid when you boarded the train, but that's not relevant for penalty fares - it's only about the state of the ticket when the PF is issued.
4. therefore if he were to issue you with a PF at that point, the PF would be void, and you'd probably able to get it cancelled on appeal.
5. as such he has two choices - report you for prosecution (or out of court settlement at probably £150 instead of £50), or just do nothing.
6. Given that he's already said he's giving you a PF as punishment for your carelessness, "doing nothing" is an unlikely outcome.

That's a good explainer, albeit I've added one small bit.

 

[Travel2]

Yes. I agree: because k renewed it he had no evidence.
So the likely situation now, I get a notice for prosection and they ask fir a statement, correct? So I explain the mistake with the expired railcard and apologise. Is that what I do?

 

[MarlowDonkey]

3. before he's issued this, you renew your railcard. This means your ticket is now valid. It wasn't valid when you boarded the train, but that's not relevant for penalty fares - it's only about the state of the ticket when the PF is issued.

That would presumably mean that if you checked your railcard, found it expired and renewed it before any ticket inspection, it would be valid for that day's travel.

 

[soil]

That would presumably mean that if you checked your railcard, found it expired and renewed it before any ticket inspection, it would be valid for that day's travel.

If they noticed that the Railcard was purchased seconds before (i.e. after boarding), they would have a case for reporting for prosecution

 

[fandroid]

Sadly, if the Railcard is renewed on the train, an offence has still been committed - that of boarding a train without a valid ticket.

It's a Catch 22 situation in that the likely option then for the inspector is to report for prosecution, as the offence is no longer one that can covered by a Penalty Fare.

Best to renew immediately after getting off the train.

 

[AlterEgo]

Sadly, if the Railcard is renewed on the train, an offence has still been committed - that of boarding a train without a valid ticket.

It's a Catch 22 situation in that the likely option then for the inspector is to report for prosecution, as the offence is no longer one that can covered by a Penalty Fare.

What do you mean by “no longer”? Why wouldn’t it be covered? What changes if the passenger renews on board?

 

[enyoueffsea]

If they noticed that the Railcard was purchased seconds before (i.e. after boarding), they would have a case for reporting for prosecution

Is it possible for them to see the timestamp of when a railcard was purchased?

 

[WesternLancer]

I have no other similar history as all my previous journeys were covered by railcard. This is a genuine mistake. I'm just afraid I look guilty. Is the main thing the journey history? What happens now? Should I contact them at the prisections email and explain or wait to receive a notice/letter? Thanks

Do not contact them. Wait for them to contact you. Then head back here about how best to reply

See other threads for examples re GTR Thameslink.

 

[Hadders]

This sounds like an unfortunate incident.

As forum members have said, GTR will write to you in the next few weeks. GTR won't prosecute you as long as you co-operate with them. When their letter arrives post a redacted copy in this thread along with your draft reply and we can assist with proof reading.

 

[Travel2]

I boarded a Thameslink service from Gatwick to Kentish Town and realised, when the 'revenue enforcement' asked for my railcard, that it had expired two weeks prior.. He tried to issue me with a fixed penalty fare so I updated my railcard via the Trainline app. He then said he was going to refer it to the prosecutions team.

Honestly, what scum these people are! He could have just accepted it as an honest mistake, but clearly upsetting people, publicly humiliating them and treating them like criminals is much more profitable for THAMESLINK than providing customer service.

Instead of providing customer service and helping to advise and support us, they criminalise honest mistakes.

I eventually recieved their scary letter, which I completed using the advice from folks on this thread, so thank you everyone. Then a charge for £71, including the full fare. So basically what I would have paid with a fixed penalty.

I hate this system and these people. Look how scared we all are. They really do make travelling in the UK horrifically scary - creating a really complicated ticketing system then acting like they are doing us a favour by chasing the 'millions' lost through fare dodging. Really? We are just trying to get from A to B and live our lives.


Bless us all..
Good luck to everyone out there! Thanks for all the support on the chat.

 

[methecooldude]

You are responsible for checking the validity of the railcard. Not Thameslink, you. Would you book an (international) flight without checking your passport is still in date?

That being said, the inspector was trying to give you the easy way out, being a penalty fare (which is a higher than normal fare for... guess what... honest mistakes, funny that) which when paied would have closed that case and potentially nothing else would have been heard from it (although some TOCs are looking at previous purchases where the PF is for a railcard). However, from what you have written you renewed the railcard right in front of the inspector and hence they could not take photos of the relevant evidence for the PF. Hence why the next step would be to report the facts to the prosecutions team for them to look at your ticketing history to see how many invalid tickets you have purchased in the 2 weeks.

 

[jfollows]

Calling people “scum” when they’re doing their jobs and discovering people who haven’t paid fares isn’t going to endear you to anyone here. Revenue enforcement staff have a difficult job to do, but they generally do it with grace and common sense. Also, how is an “honest mistake“ different from a “dishonest mistake”? We all make mistakes in our lives and have to be accountable for them.

 

[ChilliSauce]

I boarded a Thameslink service from Gatwick to Kentish Town and realised, when the 'revenue enforcement' asked for my railcard, that it had expired two weeks prior.. He tried to issue me with a fixed penalty fare so I updated my railcard via the Trainline app. He then said he was going to refer it to the prosecutions team.

Honestly, what scum these people are! He could have just accepted it as an honest mistake, but clearly upsetting people, publicly humiliating them and treating them like criminals is much more profitable for THAMESLINK than providing customer service.

Instead of providing customer service and helping to advise and support us, they criminalise honest mistakes.

I eventually recieved their scary letter, which I completed using the advice from folks on this thread, so thank you everyone. Then a charge for £71, including the full fare. So basically what I would have paid with a fixed penalty.

I hate this system and these people. Look how scared we all are. They really do make travelling in the UK horrifically scary - creating a really complicated ticketing system then acting like they are doing us a favour by chasing the 'millions' lost through fare dodging. Really? We are just trying to get from A to B and live our lives.


Bless us all..
Good luck to everyone out there! Thanks for all the support on the chat.

Thameslink as in GTR must come across all sorts of fare evasion.

As in travelling with no ticket, travelling with a Railcard discount applied for which no valid Railcard (for whatever reason) is held, short fareing, Travelling on an Oyster card not issued to them, All of the above when travelling in 1st class with whatever document held only valid in Std. The list is I suspect quite endless.

The MG11 process makes it simple for the revenue protection officer as in "Issue and then the back office take over". Given the fare evasion could go back over many previous journeys"

Like it or lump it ...that is the process. Fare evasion by whatever method is costing the tax payer ..

Where this online purchase of tickets seems to fall down, as many seem to be caught out by it, is that the online purchase app does not know the expiry date of a Railcard .. If only the purchase app knew that, then it should be able to stop the punter from purchasing a discounted ticket for which they no longer have entitlement to buy.. Or at least warn them that no valid Railcard seems to be attached.

That simple change would I believe remove all the simple oversights and allow Revenue Protection more time to tackle the real fare evaiders. Who in my view deserve all they get when caught.

 

[Kite159]

Where this online purchase of tickets seems to fall down, as many seem to be caught out by it, is that the online purchase app does not know the expiry date of a Railcard .. If only the purchase app knew that, then it should be able to stop the punter from purchasing a discounted ticket for which they no longer have entitlement to buy.. Or at least warn them that no valid Railcard seems to be attached.

Or if only people took responsibility when buying their tickets to check the railcard is still in date.

After-all if you try buying a railcard discounted ticket from a TVM it will flag up a message saying something along the lines of "please ensure you have a valid railcard", which people overlook.