Thameslink Prosecution

[MouseCat]

Hi all,

I'm new on here and hoping for some advice. In the situation, I fully appreciate my wrongdoing so please try to be kind as most are. I am extremely anxious about this even though it is my own fault.

I recently travelled into London from my usual destination using Thameslink from the Bedford direction and was stopped at the barrier for not having a valid ticket. I had boarded the train fully intending to buy a ticket (as I can do from my destination as there are no barriers and I have always been able to download an e-ticket to my phone). It only occurred to me I had not bought a ticket when I reached the barriers at St Pancras. I quickly bought and e-ticket and as though nobody had stopped me, I bought a ticket from West Hampstead (the previous stop) to save myself some money. I thought I was being clever, but I was not issued with a ticket, instead a collection code. I tried to get through, but was not allowed with the code. I regretfully called the inspector a "jobsworth" when he enquired how I got through the West Hampstead barriers with no ticket. He was adamant the barriers would be up and I tried to lie as I was quite panicked and overwhelmed not wanting to be found out. After he phoned the station, he confirmed the barriers were closed so I must have be lying. I continued to lie as to confirm my story when further questions were asked. I tried giving a false address, but then at least saw some sense and defaulted to my real one; albeit saying: "oh, I'll give you my girlfriend's", when they couldn't find the address I gave. I did give my real name. This man was just doing his job and I regret the petty name calling. Even when he read me my rights, I did accept I didn't have a valid ticket, but I maintained I boarded the train at West Hampstead. I wish I could fix this, but I made my stupid bed and I'll lay in it. I will add, this isn't within my character at all, I guess the panicked me didn't want to be found out, which I looked back at only 5 mins later as the most stupid thing I'd ever done. In any case, I apologised to the inspector for my actions, specifically stating: "no abuse is acceptable and I'm sorry for ever calling you a Jobsworth". He accepted my apology but had already filed the report, so I doubt this moment of clarity on my end will be reflected in what is said. I acted foolishly and was arrogant to think I could somehow "unstick" myself.

I am not a repeat offender with train fares. I have only ever bought the incorrect ticket once in the last month, where I didn't realise my railcard had expired and I boarded a train the day after. "Luckily", I got away with this, but any investigation will show I didn't have a railcard at the time of purchase on Trainline. I'm worried this will also bite me. I am awaiting a letter from the company now, but am so scared they will escalate my case due to my behaviour. To my knowledge I did not swear, but to their book (and most others), calling the man a jobsworth is abuse and that is that. Of course I cannot act until I receive a letter as it might just be a penalty fare at least, or a prosecution notice at worst.

The advise I'm asking for is how to respond when I get a letter; if they ask me for my version. Of course, anything I say will contradict what I told the inspector, which would immediately incriminate me to my knowledge (is this correct?). I am worried this would be the first steps to court and a criminal record. If I am given a reasonable out-of-court settlement I would immediately take this as I know wrongdoing and a criminal record would ruin my life, but I have a few more questions:

1.) Based on what I have said, what do people expect the letter/line of the company to be? I know this isn't obvious, but if anyone has experience it would be good to hear.

2.) If I offer a sincere apology and show understanding of my offence, is this incriminating myself should they wish to continue prosecution? If there is no mention of my conduct, should I not apologise for this even though I am sorry? As I understand, they will put in the letter what offence I have committed?

3.) I can show a number of times where I have bought a full-fare ticket, would this be worth stating in my defence?

4.) I have looked at solicitors to help me, but they all keep their costs hidden. For a simple case (hoping mine is) how much does this cost roughly? I know they can be expensive and it's case by case, but if this can guarantee that I can settle, I may take this option. From reading online, this is their recommendation, but of course they are solicitors who want clients.

5.)Would Thameslink offer me a settlement, even though I lied when asking me for my formal statement questions? Would they see this as a means to prosecute me further, as I would likely pay more back in court than for the price of ticket, admin costs, victim costs etc such as in a settlement.

I can provide more information on this if you need, but any advise and help would be great as I am extremely nervous about proceedings. This whole incident is very out of character for me, but I'm afraid that they won't look at it that way. Cheers.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi all,

I'm new on here and hoping for some advice. In the situation, I fully appreciate my wrongdoing so please try to be kind as most are. I am extremely anxious about this even though it is my own fault.

I recently travelled into London from my usual destination using Thameslink from the Bedford direction and was stopped at the barrier for not having a valid ticket. I had boarded the train fully intending to buy a ticket (as I can do from my destination as there are no barriers and I have always been able to download an e-ticket to my phone). It only occurred to me I had not bought a ticket when I reached the barriers at St Pancras. I quickly bought and e-ticket and as though nobody had stopped me, I bought a ticket from West Hampstead (the previous stop) to save myself some money. I thought I was being clever, but I was not issued with a ticket, instead a collection code. I tried to get through, but was not allowed with the code. I regretfully called the inspector a "jobsworth" when he enquired how I got through the West Hampstead barriers with no ticket. He was adamant the barriers would be up and I tried to lie as I was quite panicked and overwhelmed not wanting to be found out. After he phoned the station, he confirmed the barriers were closed so I must have be lying. I continued to lie as to confirm my story when further questions were asked. I tried giving a false address, but then at least saw some sense and defaulted to my real one; albeit saying: "oh, I'll give you my girlfriend's", when they couldn't find the address I gave. I did give my real name. This man was just doing his job and I regret the petty name calling. Even when he read me my rights, I did accept I didn't have a valid ticket, but I maintained I boarded the train at West Hampstead. I wish I could fix this, but I made my stupid bed and I'll lay in it. I will add, this isn't within my character at all, I guess the panicked me didn't want to be found out, which I looked back at only 5 mins later as the most stupid thing I'd ever done. In any case, I apologised to the inspector for my actions, specifically stating: "no abuse is acceptable and I'm sorry for ever calling you a Jobsworth". He accepted my apology but had already filed the report, so I doubt this moment of clarity on my end will be reflected in what is said. I acted foolishly and was arrogant to think I could somehow "unstick" myself.

I am not a repeat offender with train fares. I have only ever bought the incorrect ticket once in the last month, where I didn't realise my railcard had expired and I boarded a train the day after. "Luckily", I got away with this, but any investigation will show I didn't have a railcard at the time of purchase on Trainline. I'm worried this will also bite me. I am awaiting a letter from the company now, but am so scared they will escalate my case due to my behaviour. To my knowledge I did not swear, but to their book (and most others), calling the man a jobsworth is abuse and that is that. Of course I cannot act until I receive a letter as it might just be a penalty fare at least, or a prosecution notice at worst.

The advise I'm asking for is how to respond when I get a letter; if they ask me for my version. Of course, anything I say will contradict what I told the inspector, which would immediately incriminate me to my knowledge (is this correct?). I am worried this would be the first steps to court and a criminal record. If I am given a reasonable out-of-court settlement I would immediately take this as I know wrongdoing and a criminal record would ruin my life, but I have a few more questions:

1.) Based on what I have said, what do people expect the letter/line of the company to be? I know this isn't obvious, but if anyone has experience it would be good to hear.

2.) If I offer a sincere apology and show understanding of my offence, is this incriminating myself should they wish to continue prosecution? If there is no mention of my conduct, should I not apologise for this even though I am sorry? As I understand, they will put in the letter what offence I have committed?

3.) I can show a number of times where I have bought a full-fare ticket, would this be worth stating in my defence?

4.) I have looked at solicitors to help me, but they all keep their costs hidden. For a simple case (hoping mine is) how much does this cost roughly? I know they can be expensive and it's case by case, but if this can guarantee that I can settle, I may take this option. From reading online, this is their recommendation, but of course they are solicitors who want clients.

5.)Would Thameslink offer me a settlement, even though I lied when asking me for my formal statement questions? Would they see this as a means to prosecute me further, as I would likely pay more back in court than for the price of ticket, admin costs, victim costs etc such as in a settlement.

I can provide more information on this if you need, but any advise and help would be great as I am extremely nervous about proceedings. This whole incident is very out of character for me, but I'm afraid that they won't look at it that way. Cheers.

OK - welcome to the forum - just to summarise that I have this correct:

A- you boarded a train without having bought your ticket before stepping on the trains (you need to know that is an offence, you must have a ticket before you board - you are not permitted to get on and then buy on your phone)

B - you then bought a ticket at your destination and selected a station close to your destination so you could avoid paying the correct fare (this is probably your most serious action since it is clear that was deliberate fare evasion and not some kind of mistake or misunderstanding of ticket rules)

C- when you were questioned you did not co-operate at 1st (did not give your address) and spoke in less than pleasant tone to the member of staff (insulted them basically) - but had the courtesy to apologise for that.

D - You do not fare dodge habitually but did make an error with a ticket discounted for a railcard that had expired.

Does that sum it up?

I doubt you need to pay a solicitor at this stage (cases where people mention the charge they pay is often about £500 solicitors fees) - I suspect you can obtain a settlement out of court by engaging with Thameslink in the general terms usually recommended on this forum. Have a look at a few other threads involving Thameslink to get an idea of how things play out.

At this stage you need to wait to hear from them to see what they ask you / accuse you of doing. By getting a good reply drafted up to that I would think you have a good chance of avoiding being prosecuted.

 

[30907]

The advise I'm asking for is how to respond when I get a letter; if they ask me for my version. Of course, anything I say will contradict what I told the inspector, which would immediately incriminate me to my knowledge (is this correct?).

You didn't have a valid ticket so you are already liable to be found guilty.
Your lies aren't going to make much difference, as you were found out. They are used to it

I am worried this would be the first steps to court and a criminal record. If I am given a reasonable out-of-court settlement I would immediately take this as I know wrongdoing and a criminal record would ruin my life,

That's very unlikely

but I have a few more questions:

1.) Based on what I have said, what do people expect the letter/line of the company to be? I know this isn't obvious, but if anyone has experience it would be good to hear.

Thameslink/GTR are normally, from what we read, happy to offer an out-of-court settlement to people who engage honestly with them.

2.) If I offer a sincere apology and show understanding of my offence, is this incriminating myself should they wish to continue prosecution? If there is no mention of my conduct, should I not apologise for this even though I am sorry? As I understand, they will put in the letter what offence I have committed?

They will almost certainly treat this as a straightforward ticketing offence and nothing more. It would be stupid to deny not having a valid ticket

3.) I can show a number of times where I have bought a full-fare ticket, would this be worth stating in my defence?

It's no defence on this occasion, but if it's true then mention it.
Be aware they may well check your purchase history.

4.) I have looked at solicitors to help me,

You don't need a solicitor on the basis of what you have said.
It's pretty unlikely they will pursue the abusive language issue.

5.)Would Thameslink offer me a settlement, even though I lied when asking me for my formal statement questions? Would they see this as a means to prosecute me further, as I would likely pay more back in court than for the price of ticket, admin costs, victim costs etc such as in a settlement.

if they take you to court you will have to pay significantly more, but GTR will get much the same as if they settle out of court.

Please don't lose too much sleep over this, and come back when the letter arrives.

 

[MouseCat]

OK - welcome to the forum - just to summarise that I have this correct:

A- you boarded a train without having bought your ticket before stepping on the trains (you need to know that is an offence, you must have a ticket before you board - you are not permitted to get on and then buy on your phone)

B - you then bought a ticket at your destination and selected a station close to your destination so you could avoid paying the correct fare (this is probably your most serious action since it is clear that was deliberate fare evasion and not some kind of mistake or misunderstanding of ticket rules)

C- when you were questioned you did not co-operate at 1st (did not give your address) and spoke in less than pleasant tone to the member of staff (insulted them basically) - but had the courtesy to apologise for that.

D - You do not fare dodge habitually but did make an error with a ticket discounted for a railcard that had expired.

Does that sum it up?

I doubt you need to pay a solicitor at this stage (cases where people mention the charge they pay is often about £500 solicitors fees) - I suspect you can obtain a settlement out of court by engaging with Thameslink in the general terms usually recommended on this forum. Have a look at a few other threads involving Thameslink to get an idea of how things play out.

At this stage you need to wait to hear from them to see what they ask you / accuse you of doing. By getting a good reply drafted up to that I would think you have a good chance of avoiding being prosecuted.

Thank you for your reply!

A- I now know this to be much more serious than I thought. I have bought tickets on the train many times before but never dishonestly. It just seemed easier, but I won’t do it again. I know I don’t need to explain that, but if this could happen again for something like so, I will avoid at all costs.

B- I thought I was being clever to my detriment. How does this differ to “I forgot my railcard” etc when you don’t have one?

C- I didn’t really cooperate, but my poor actions only occurred before they started asking questions. I genuinely don’t know what was going through my head when I thought I could give a fake address. As I said, I amended this and the correct one was given. I did indeed apologise to the inspector, but this was at the end of proceedings.

D- Correct, this is not habitual at all. From memory the only infraction I previously did (which is only known to me as I wasn’t found out or stopped) was when I purchased a railcard ticket the day after my card expired.

Thank you for answering helpfully and with understanding. I get what I’ve done, I own it, but I’m not proud.

One question I do still have is once again about the legal route. All law firms recommend getting in touch as soon as I receive the first letter. Is this more of an attempt at getting clients rather than a necessity. Also, I’m hoping I won’t go to court, but can you still settle out of court after a “second letter”.

 

[MouseCat]

You didn't have a valid ticket so you are already liable to be found guilty.
Your lies aren't going to make much difference, as you were found out. They are used to it

That's very unlikely

Thameslink/GTR are normally, from what we read, happy to offer an out-of-court settlement to people who engage honestly with them.

They will almost certainly treat this as a straightforward ticketing offence and nothing more. It would be stupid to deny not having a valid ticket

It's no defence on this occasion, but if it's true then mention it.
Be aware they may well check your purchase history.

You don't need a solicitor on the basis of what you have said.
It's pretty unlikely they will pursue the abusive language issue.

if they take you to court you will have to pay significantly more, but GTR will get much the same as if they settle out of court.

Please don't lose too much sleep over this, and come back when the letter arrives.

Thank you for response, you’ve certainly helped my anxiety with your answers. I’ll go through your points if that’s ok?:

Lying just makes me look more of an idiot and it’s the thing I’m beating myself up about the most. I guess when they’re used to this, they’ll stick to the facts.

What would I have to have done to risk instant prosecution in your opinion?

Sorry if this is obvious, but is engaging with them honestly, me coming completely clean and, once again, apologising for my behaviour? Will I need to address this if they don’t mention it?

If you know, how do the solicitors get you a settlement if you admit guilt that the company could easily take you to court for?

I have only used Thameslink for the last 6 months, so would they look back at all purchases with previous companies? Then I couldn’t say with certainty I’ve never messed up a ticket.

As being very new to the forum and forums in general. If I comment on here when the letter comes back, will it pop back into visibility again?

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

To be frank given that you...

Boarded a train without a ticket
Purchased a short distance ticket instead of a ticket covering your full journey
Did not co-operate with the revenue inspector and was verbally abusive towards them
Gave false details to the inspector

...You really ought to be prosecuted.

The good news for you is that you are dealing with Govia Thameslink Railway who will usually offer an out of court settlement to people who co-operate with them and who haven't come to their attention before. Other train companies tend to take a harder line with this sort of thing.

GTR will write to you asking for your version of events before they decide how to proceed. It is very important that you engage with and reply to this letter. You might want to mention the following in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

GTR are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) to people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. There is no guarantee of this and they are within their rights to prosecute you in the magistrates court should they wish to do so. If you are offered a settlement it tends to cost around £150 plus the outstanding fare. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.

Be aware that GTR will probably research your online ticket purchasing history and if this shows a history of purchasing short tickets the expect to have to account for this. While you aren't required to incriminate yourself GTR already has sufficient evidence to prosecute you for the single offence where you were caught, and if you are seen to be obstructive then this will lessen the chances of being offered a settlement.

Feel free to post a copy of GTR's letter when it arrives along with you draft reply and forum members will be happy to proof read it for you. DO make sure you cover up any personal details before uploading it.

 

[WesternLancer]

B- I thought I was being clever to my detriment. How does this differ to “I forgot my railcard” etc when you don’t have one?

One question I do still have is once again about the legal route. All law firms recommend getting in touch as soon as I receive the first letter. Is this more of an attempt at getting clients rather than a necessity. Also, I’m hoping I won’t go to court, but can you still settle out of court after a “second letter”.

On B - you end up at the same place by a different route - you say you have forgotten your Railcard - they write to ask you to send proof of having it to them - if you can't do this because you do not have one you are dealing with the same reply and needing to excuse that you have lied at that point, and then again ask for settlement out of court - makes little difference really

ref solicitors - if Thameslink do not reply to you offering a settlement then you could ask a solicitor for help if you wish - however, it's important to get your letter asking for a settlement correct (without incriminating yourself further) - but the forum can help with that - lots of other threads with Thameslink you could look at to get the idea.

But it's up to you if you want to employ solicitor - several reports on here say that some specialist fare evasion solicitors have reached very quick settlement agreements with Thameslink for people - but of course that's at a cost of their fees, This depends on how you value our own time and stress I suppose as to whether you want to pay that money.

 

[MouseCat]

Hi again @Hadders @WesternLancer @30907 & @Haywain (who I have realised is very active on the forum and may be able to help here).

Today I received the letter from Govia Thameslink which I was expecting. From my research on the forum, this was the usual letter they send as a 'notice to prosecute'. I have drafted a letter and wondered if you could offer any advice? Thank you in advance.

"Dear Sir or Madam

I am writing in response to the Notice of Intention to Prosecute letter dated 12/02/24, regarding the incident at London St Pancras International on 09/12/23.

I was travelling from my home station of [xxx] to St Pancras, and upon approaching the barrier in London, I realised I had not purchased a ticket after boarding the train. I usually purchase e-tickets, sometimes after boarding the train, which is something I now also know to be wrong. As a poor judgement, I then bought a ticket in haste which was cheaper than the fare I should have paid. This was a very out of character and regretful action which I can account to the panicked frame of mind I had when realising my error.

I recognise the wrongness of this decision and I am very ashamed of what I did. I understand the severity of my actions and the affect fare evasion has on Govia Thameslink and the whole railway industry. Since the incident, I have ensured that I have a full and valid ticket for every journey from the moment I set foot on the train, and will continue to do so.

I am extremely sorry for wasting your time and wondered if it would be possible to settle this matter without the need for court action. I’m prepared to pay the outstanding fare to cover the remaining fare and any administrative costs to Govia Thameslink Railway.

Once again, I am deeply sorry for my actions and the inconvenience I have caused.

Yours faithfully,"

 

[Haywain]

Hi again @Hadders @WesternLancer @30907 & @Haywain (who I have realised is very active on the forum and may be able to help here).

Today I received the letter from Govia Thameslink which I was expecting. From my research on the forum, this was the usual letter they send as a 'notice to prosecute'. I have drafted a letter and wondered if you could offer any advice? Thank you in advance.

"Dear Sir or Madam

I am writing in response to the Notice of Intention to Prosecute letter dated 12/02/24, regarding the incident at London St Pancras International on 09/12/23.

I was travelling from my home station of [xxx] to St Pancras, and upon approaching the barrier in London, I realised I had not purchased a ticket after boarding the train. I usually purchase e-tickets, sometimes after boarding the train, which is something I now also know to be wrong. As a poor judgement, I then bought a ticket in haste which was cheaper than the fare I should have paid. This was a very out of character and regretful action which I can account to the panicked frame of mind I had when realising my error.

I recognise the wrongness of this decision and I am very ashamed of what I did. I understand the severity of my actions and the affect fare evasion has on Govia Thameslink and the whole railway industry. Since the incident, I have ensured that I have a full and valid ticket for every journey from the moment I set foot on the train, and will continue to do so.

I am extremely sorry for wasting your time and wondered if it would be possible to settle this matter without the need for court action. I’m prepared to pay the outstanding fare to cover the remaining fare and any administrative costs to Govia Thameslink Railway.

Once again, I am deeply sorry for my actions and the inconvenience I have caused.

Yours faithfully,"

Good letter. Just the right length and tone.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi again @Hadders @WesternLancer @30907 & @Haywain (who I have realised is very active on the forum and may be able to help here).

Today I received the letter from Govia Thameslink which I was expecting. From my research on the forum, this was the usual letter they send as a 'notice to prosecute'. I have drafted a letter and wondered if you could offer any advice? Thank you in advance.

"Dear Sir or Madam

I am writing in response to the Notice of Intention to Prosecute letter dated 12/02/24, regarding the incident at London St Pancras International on 09/12/23.

I was travelling from my home station of [xxx] to St Pancras, and upon approaching the barrier in London, I realised I had not purchased a ticket after boarding the train. I usually purchase e-tickets, sometimes after boarding the train, which is something I now also know to be wrong. As a poor judgement, I then bought a ticket in haste which was cheaper than the fare I should have paid. This was a very out of character and regretful action which I can account to the panicked frame of mind I had when realising my error.

I recognise the wrongness of this decision and I am very ashamed of what I did. I understand the severity of my actions and the affect fare evasion has on Govia Thameslink and the whole railway industry. Since the incident, I have ensured that I have a full and valid ticket for every journey from the moment I set foot on the train, and will continue to do so.

I am extremely sorry for wasting your time and wondered if it would be possible to settle this matter without the need for court action. I’m prepared to pay the outstanding fare to cover the remaining fare and any administrative costs to Govia Thameslink Railway.

Once again, I am deeply sorry for my actions and the inconvenience I have caused.

Yours faithfully,"

Yes, draft looks good - add any ref numbers to it as required is all I can think of.

 

[SuspectUsual]

I usually purchase e-tickets, sometimes after boarding the train, which is something I now also know to be wrong.

Do we think this is wise? Its effectively admitting to further offences which GTR may not be aware of

 

[ikcdab]

any out of court settlement will require the whole fare from XXX to St Pancras to be paid. They will no take into account the short-fare ticket you did buy. So saying "...to cover the remaining fare..." is pointless and, frankly, taking the mick, so i would delete that bit. You could just say that you offer to pay "the avoided fare" as that could be taken either way.

 

[Haywain]

Do we think this is wise? Its effectively admitting to further offences which GTR may not be aware of

Only in the vaguest terms, and they don't appear to result in any actual loss. Therefore I don't see a problem.

 

[fandroid]

I would change one little bit. You say you always now have tickets "from the moment I set foot on the train" . That could be misinterpreted as buying tickets immediately after boarding. That's an offence in itself and you need to say "before boarding any train"