Thameslink Prosecution Notice - Solicitor? - *EDIT: Now resolved*

[dayslikethese2]

Hi I received a notice of intention to prosecute from GTR re using a railcard for a ticket outside of the ticketing conditions.

I was meant to travel with my partner but they missed the train, I had purchased both of our tickets with a shared rail discount card. I explained this to the ticket attendant when they arrived two stops on from KX (departing station) and tried to buy a single fare for myself, thinking this might be possible, but they took details instead. I then purchased an anytime single on my phone.

I am ND and impulsively boarded the train without partner as I was running late and in a flap (the service was different to the usual one I get to my destination, involved rail replacement buses, I was going to a really important family occasion - not an excuse but just to contextualise the frantic nature of decision).

Please can someone help. I am considering getting a solicitor involved as I can't deal with the overwhelm + stress.

I've definitely learned a huge lesson but want this to be sorted ASAP.

 

[Titfield]

Please can you post up the letter you have received with any identifying details (name address reference number etc) obscured so the forum members can give advice tailored to your specific issue?

You do not need to engage a solicitor at this point in time. Most ticket issues with TOCS can be resolved without engaging the services of a solicitor. The forum members will advise if the nature of the issue (for example serial fare evasion) warrants a solicitor.

Whilst issues such as these can cause considerable stress and anxiety they take their time to be resolved not least because the TOCs have a huge backlog of cases they are working through.

In the meantime please post up the letter and respond to further questions forum members may then have.

 

[Haywain]

I am ND

Sorry, what does this mean?

 

[Titfield]

Sorry, what does this mean?

Neuro Divergent.

 

[Gloster]

The best thing that you can do is post the letter in this thread: please obscure your name, address and any other identifying details, such as reference numbers. The experts will advise you how to proceed and this is likely to be no more complicated than having to see a solicitor…and a lot cheaper. In the unlikley event of the experts being of the opinion that you should contact a solicitor, they will tell you.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

We could do with seeing the letter you've been sent, although I suspect it will be GTR's standard template which I've seen hundreds of times on here!

A couple of questions:

1. What type of railcard were you using? Were you in possession of the railcard or did your partner have it?
2. Where were you travelling to? What ticket did you purchase for the two of you and what ticket did you purchase after you were stopped?
3. It sounds as though both you and your partner were late for the train, you managed to catch a different train to your normal one at Kings Cross but your partner was even later and missed it altogether - have I got this right?

 

[dayslikethese2]

Welcome to the forum!

We could do with seeing the letter you've been sent, although I suspect it will be GTR's standard template which I've seen hundreds of times on here!

A couple of questions:

1. What type of railcard were you using? Were you in possession of the railcard or did your partner have it?
2. Where were you travelling to? What ticket did you purchase for the two of you and what ticket did you purchase after you were stopped?
3. It sounds as though both you and your partner were late for the train, you managed to catch a different train to your normal one at Kings Cross but your partner was even later and missed it altogether - have I got this right?

It was a Two Together and I was in possession of railcard and our tickets. I then purchased an anytime single for my onward journey. Person I was meant to be travelling with missed train/did not travel on the tickets I purchased for us at all.

That’s correct.

 

[WesternLancer]

It was a Two Together and I was in possession of railcard and our tickets. I then purchased an anytime single for my onward journey. Person I was meant to be travelling with missed train/did not travel on the tickets I purchased for us at all.

That’s correct.

I have often wondered this - and other forum members may have a view - since it might form some sort of valid defence for what happened

In a scenario where 2 tickets bought with a Two Together railcard but one person does not travel, when on the train if you presented both tickets for checking (and then they got scanned or clipped so they could not be used again) how is the railway a loser in this? OK one person has not travelled by their ticket has been 'used' and has no validity

After all such a scenario could happen if the 2nd person was in the train toilet when the tickets were checked and the staff on board believed that they were indeed in the toilet, scanned/clipped the ticket and moved on

Clearly the spirit of the Railcard T&C would be clearly broken if the 2nd person tried to travel on a different train - but in this case the OP states the 2nd person did not travel at all.

Was the issue here simply that the OP bought their Anytime Single after the train departed their boarding station and the on board staff member scanned that single and was then obliged to report the matter as an incidence of buying a ticket after the train departed - and effectively nothing to do with the Two Together Railcard discounted tickets originally bought?

Can I ask @dayslikethese2 if the Two Together bought tickets were refunded or any attempt made to refund them?

I wonder if there is scope in trying to persuade the train company, with a suitably worded letter, to take no further action in this case on the basis that extra fares have already been paid (assuming refunds were not claimed for the original tickets)?

( I see the letter from the railway company that was attached to post #7 has been deleted before I had a chance to read what it said and if it is more than the standard Thameslink / Great Northern 'please tell us your side of the story' letter)

 

[dayslikethese2]

I have often wondered this - and other forum members may have a view - since it might form some sort of valid defence for what happened

In a scenario where 2 tickets bought with a Two Together railcard but one person does not travel, when on the train if you presented both tickets for checking (and then they got scanned or clipped so they could not be used again) how is the railway a loser in this? OK one person has not travelled by their ticket has been 'used' and has no validity

After all such a scenario could happen if the 2nd person was in the train toilet when the tickets were checked and the staff on board believed that they were indeed in the toilet, scanned/clipped the ticket and moved on

Clearly the spirit of the Railcard T&C would be clearly broken if the 2nd person tried to travel on a different train - but in this case the OP states the 2nd person did not travel at all.

Was the issue here simply that the OP bought their Anytime Dingle after the train departed their boarding station - and effectively nothing to do with the Two Together Railcard discounted tickets originally bought?

Can I ask @dayslikethese2 if the Two Together bought tickets were refunded or any attempt made to refund them?

Hello, I made no attempt to refund them. Rather I was travelling without the person I was meant to be with, they never tried to enter a train with our tickets, I had them. So I had my details taken down because I was travelling on a discounted ticket without the other railcard holder, therefore the conditions of the discount were invalid (you must travel together to get the discount). I asked whether I would have had my details taken down if I'd have just not bought a ticket and wished to purchase one there and then, and the attendant said no - they would have sold me a ticket in that instance. I was not allowed to make up the cost of my discounted ticket as I thought I would be / buy a new one. I did purchase an anytime single from my departing station to destination on my phone to avoid any further confusion at the barriers once my details were taken. Help, I am very worried.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks for your reply

Hello, I made no attempt to refund them. Rather I was travelling without the person I was meant to be with, they never tried to enter a train with our tickets, I had them.

Were they paper tickets? - not critical but obv if they were the other person would have no ability to travel with them if you had them whereas a pdf could in theory be forwarded (I appreciate you did not do that of course)

So I had my details taken down because I was travelling on a discounted ticket without the other railcard holder, therefore the conditions of the discount were invalid (you must travel together to get the discount).

Yes, I think this is indeed a strict interpretation of the T&Cs

I asked whether I would have had my details taken down if I'd have just not bought a ticket and wished to purchase one there and then, and the attendant said no - they would have sold me a ticket in that instance.

Presume either they felt they had no discretion or in fact chose not to exercise any - makes little difference now of course

I was not allowed to make up the cost of my discounted ticket as I thought I would be / buy a new one.

Experts here will be able to say if the option of what is called an 'Excess Fare' should in fact have been offered

I did purchase an anytime single from my departing station to destination on my phone to avoid any further confusion at the barriers once my details were taken.

Help, I am very worried.

Do not worry (but can you upload your letter again making sure you have your details / ref number obscured)

Even if there are not 'get out's of the sort I am thinking about, It should be possible for you to agree a settlement with the Railway company (which company are you dealing with? when is the deadline to reply?) with the 'standard general advice on how to reply' type response usually posted here

ie a response that includes:
- an apology
- stating clearly you now understand fully the terms of the Railcard
- making it clear you never had any intention to travel without paying a fare
- a polite request to them to ask if they will kindly consider letting you settle the matter without court cation / prosecution

You can see other letters on threads that give you an idea of what to say / you can have a stab at drafting one up and people here will help you get the content as good as it can be before you send it

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Help, I am very worried.

In the circumstances, it looks to me as if your priority is to bring the matter to an end sooner rather than later, rather than to get the fairest possible result. So my suggestion here is based on that. If that's not what you want then of course there's no need to take any notice of what I say here!

But what we find is that GTR are generally happy to settle matters as long as the customer
- keeps in touch
- makes it clear that they won't make the mistake again, and
- is prepared to pay the cost of the train fare, plus GTR's investigation costs (so train fare plus £150 or so)

If you're happy to settle, write a short but courteous letter to GTR covering these points. If you want us to have a look at what you're planning to say, then if you post a draft in this thread we will be able to make comments that might help it be really effective.

If you do all this, then it's very likely (but not guaranteed) that the railway will let you settle without having to go to court. And that will be the end of the matter.

As I say, this might be a rather rough and ready way of resolving things. But it may help you to stop worrying about this.

 

[WesternLancer]

In the circumstances, it looks to me as if your priority is to bring the matter to an end sooner rather than later, rather than to get the fairest possible result. So my suggestion here is based on that. If that's not what you want then of course there's no need to take any notice of what I say here!

But what we find is that GTR are generally happy to settle matters as long as the customer
- keeps in touch
- makes it clear that they won't make the mistake again, and
- is prepared to pay the cost of the train fare, plus GTR's investigation costs (so train fare plus £150 or so)

If you're happy to settle, write a short but courteous letter to GTR covering these points. If you want us to have a look at what you're planning to say, then if you post a draft in this thread we will be able to make comments that might help it be really effective.

If you do all this, then it's very likely (but not guaranteed) that the railway will let you settle without having to go to court. And that will be the end of the matter.

As I say, this might be a rather rough and ready way of resolving things. But it may help you to stop worrying about this.

Obviously good advice that I fully agree with.

A shame for the OP that they have:
-already bought 2 tickets for the journey discounted with a Two Together Railcard
- bought another Anytime Single ticket for themselves (possibly whilst en route)
- may now have to pay for another ticket
- may now have to pay circa £150 admin fee

But that would still likely be lower than paying a solicitors fee on top.

 

[dayslikethese2]

Hello, please see letter and drafted response here. I have omitted any personal details. Just wondered if the level of info about my personal situation ie reason for getting on the train etc is unnecessary. I have to get this letter off quite soon so would really appreciate any help in refining it please. Thanks so much for your helpful responses so far and TIA for any pointers re letter. I’m just keen to get this sorted as quickly as possible outside of court if I can. Is it appropriate to attach tickets to this message and or railcard when sending?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Hello, please see letter and drafted response here. I have omitted any personal details. Just wondered if the level of info about my personal situation ie reason for getting on the train etc is unnecessary. I have to get this letter off quite soon so would really appreciate any help in refining it please. Thanks so much for your helpful responses so far and TIA for any pointers re letter. I’m just keen to get this sorted as quickly as possible outside of court if I can. Is it appropriate to attach tickets to this message and or railcard when sending?

That looks fine to me. There's often a view expressed on this forum that there's no point in 'special pleading' but I don't think it makes your letter wildly too long and it's unlikely but not impossible that the railway will show sympathy for your position and offer you the chance to make a smaller settlement than is normally the case.

If you have the time, it might be worth waiting to see if there are any other comments to improve your letter, but I would be happy to send that now.

 

[John R]

I agree with @Fawkes Cat. Looks ok to me.

 

[Snow1964]

What we have here is 2 tickets bought (at two thirds price each), one person was unable to travel (missed train, but could have also been illness).

In theory the correct approach is to exchange the tickets to a sole person, so instead of paying 4/3 pay 3/3 of price, thus getting quarter refunded before you travel. This is only possible at manned ticket offices (not ticket vending machines), or (for online purchases) by email or electronic chat exchanges and processes. There is no customer can exchange button

If the ticket inspector / guard etc was first manned ticket check where exchange was possible, then refusing to do the exchange (or selling replacement so original can be refunded in slow time) highlights a non customer friendly approach.

Not sure if it is worth highlighting this trapped the customer by refusing exchange in the reply, others better qualified will give their opinion.

 

[Haywain]

In theory the correct approach is to exchange the tickets to a sole person, so instead of paying 4/3 pay 3/3 of price, thus getting quarter refunded before you travel. This is only possible at manned ticket offices (not ticket vending machines), or (for online purchases) by email or electronic chat exchanges and processes.

The correct approach is to buy a new full price ticket before boarding a train and to submit the original tickets to the original retailer for a refund.

 

[dayslikethese2]

The correct approach is to buy a new full price ticket before boarding a train and to submit the original tickets to the original retailer for a refund.

Hi Haywain, you're right but as I hope you can tell I was in a bit of a flap. I hoped being upfront on the train would help resolve it and had been rushing around prior to boarding. Not an excuse and doesn't make what I did any better, but I am with you and to be honest I just want to be able to show how sorry I am and pay what I owe (and then some) in order to resolve this, as I realise retrospectively how silly and serious it was.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Aug 2024 ==

What we have here is 2 tickets bought (at two thirds price each), one person was unable to travel (missed train, but could have also been illness).

In theory the correct approach is to exchange the tickets to a sole person, so instead of paying 4/3 pay 3/3 of price, thus getting quarter refunded before you travel. This is only possible at manned ticket offices (not ticket vending machines), or (for online purchases) by email or electronic chat exchanges and processes. There is no customer can exchange button

If the ticket inspector / guard etc was first manned ticket check where exchange was possible, then refusing to do the exchange (or selling replacement so original can be refunded in slow time) highlights a non customer friendly approach.

Not sure if it is worth highlighting this trapped the customer by refusing exchange in the reply, others better qualified will give their opinion.

Hello Snow, thanks for this. I hadn't thought of it quite like that. As I bought the ticket digitally the attendant was my first port of call to rectify/repurchase a ticket following my error - it would have been better to just try and buy a ticket on the train with the attendant and they told me in that situation they'd have sold me one, no need for details or an orange slip. I was kicking myself at that point - but in fairness I had been quite rushed in the moments leading up to travel, so going to the ticket office etc. would likely not have happened before boarding. In this case, I hope at least that by not refunding my ticket (bought with a 2 together) and in purchasing a new single anytime fare I at least showed a willingness to pay properly. Perhaps they won't look upon it so lightly.

 

[Haywain]

Hi Haywain, you're right but as I hope you can tell I was in a bit of a flap.

My comment was in no way intended to be a criticism of you, it was correcting what had been said in the post to which I replied. For what it's worth, I am slightly surprised that you have been reported for this and I would hope that GTR take a pragmatic approach when you provide them with the details. On the bright side, we are aware that GTR are probably the most reasonable train company in the amounts that they ask for when agreeing to settle cases.

 

[dayslikethese2]

That looks fine to me. There's often a view expressed on this forum that there's no point in 'special pleading' but I don't think it makes your letter wildly too long and it's unlikely but not impossible that the railway will show sympathy for your position and offer you the chance to make a smaller settlement than is normally the case.

If you have the time, it might be worth waiting to see if there are any other comments to improve your letter, but I would be happy to send that now.

Hi Fawkes, thanks for your help. I really appreciate the feedback. In your opinion, would it be appropriate to attach a) railcard b) ticket pdfs c) letter of diagnosis to show evidence of the neurodivergent condition I have. I wondered if this information was relevant as I know personal gumph probably isn't looked upon too kindly, but actually it does affect my executive function (decision making/judgement) and impulsivity is a prominent part of this. If anyone else can advise in this regard I would be extremely grateful. TIA.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Aug 2024 ==

My comment was in no way intended to be a criticism of you, it was correcting what had been said in the post to which I replied. For what it's worth, I am slightly surprised that you have been reported for this and I would hope that GTR take a pragmatic approach when you provide them with the details. On the bright side, we are aware that GTR are probably the most reasonable train company in the amounts that they ask for when agreeing to settle cases.

Hi Haywain - I apologise if I sounded defensive. I genuinely did not mean to and I know you are not criticising me. What I meant was, you were making a reasonable and fair point that I am in agreement with. I definitely didn't interpret your response as a criticism but can see why my reply might have sounded as though I did. On the contrary, I'm really grateful to you for engaging with my post, and your reply is totally justified and based in truth. I appreciate your advice and it's been reassuring to have yourself and others engage with my case, so thanks again.

 

[Haywain]

In your opinion, would it be appropriate to attach a) railcard b) ticket pdfs

OK, you weren't asking me! But I think it would be very appropriate to include these.

 

[dayslikethese2]

Welcome to the forum!

We could do with seeing the letter you've been sent, although I suspect it will be GTR's standard template which I've seen hundreds of times on here!

A couple of questions:

1. What type of railcard were you using? Were you in possession of the railcard or did your partner have it?
2. Where were you travelling to? What ticket did you purchase for the two of you and what ticket did you purchase after you were stopped?
3. It sounds as though both you and your partner were late for the train, you managed to catch a different train to your normal one at Kings Cross but your partner was even later and missed it altogether - have I got this right?

Thanks for this Hadders.

I was running late, the other person travelling did not board. I made the mistake of boarding without attempting to buy a new ticket until interacting with the train attendant, and then the situation ensued. Have attached the letter and my drafted (albeit slightly wordy?) response to an email further down the thread. Thank you sincerely for your help so far, and for issuing sound advice throughout the forum.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

In your opinion, would it be appropriate to attach a) railcard b) ticket pdfs c) letter of diagnosis to show evidence of the neurodivergent condition I have. I wondered if this information was relevant as I know personal gumph probably isn't looked upon too kindly, but actually it does affect my executive function (decision making/judgement) and impulsivity is a prominent part of this. If anyone else can advise in this regard I would be extremely grateful. TIA.

To be honest (and with apologies if I am showing a lack of empathy) I wouldn't bother. It's unlikely that the railway will take the matters of the railcard and your condition into account. So if they're going to ignore the matters, then additional evidence won't help. But as I said previously, there's a possibility that they will consider the matters favourably - so there's no need to remove mention of them from your letter

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Aug 2024 ==

OK, you weren't asking me! But I think it would be very appropriate to include these.

But other's views may vary!

 

[furlong]

Did you present BOTH tickets to the inspector on the train? If so, make that very clear in your letter. It has always struck me as a flaw that this situation is not covered clearly in the T&Cs of the railcard. The current practice, as seems to have happend here, may be considered unfair (vindictive), that someone who IS entitled to travel and is in possession of two tickets should be penalised further because their companion is missing. If it became subject to proper public scrutiny I would expect to see updated guidance issued on how to handle this situation that did not involve any further payment.

 

[dayslikethese2]

Obviously good advice that I fully agree with.

A shame for the OP that they have:
-already bought 2 tickets for the journey discounted with a Two Together Railcard
- bought another Anytime Single ticket for themselves (possibly whilst en route)
- may now have to pay for another ticket
- may not have to pay circa £150 admin fee

But that would still likely be lower than paying a solicitors fee on top.

Yes, I did purchase a ticket whilst travelling

 

[WesternLancer]

To be honest (and with apologies if I am showing a lack of empathy) I wouldn't bother. It's unlikely that the railway will take the matters of the railcard and your condition into account. So if they're going to ignore the matters, then additional evidence won't help. But as I said previously, there's a possibility that they will consider the matters favourably - so there's no need to remove mention of them from your letter

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Aug 2024 ==


But other's views may vary!

On this my view does vary in that I can see no harm in including them - as it helps demonstrate the OP had spent money on tickets and may just (but but in not way for sure) might influence GTR to offer a lower settlement charge if they are minded to be sympathetic. We know GTR are usually reasonable so the risk of prosecution IMHO is very low, but this may help get the OP a more modest settlement offer financially. There is surely nothing to lose.

It's clear to me that the OP had no intention to evade the fare and simply made a mistake on the day after it became clear that the 2 people could not travel together. So I see no harm in mentioning the original tickets bought and the proof of that.

Also - to @dayslikethese2 if you do mention your ND in your reply as a factor in what happened I would indeed substantiate that with proof of diagnosis since you indicate you have such proof and can thus easily include it.

Also - I think what is missing from your letter is a sentence making it 100% clear 'that the second person's discounted ticket was never used, and there was no attempt to use it as circumstances meant that at the last minute they were unable to travel, and the second traveller never had possession of that ticket and thus would not have been able to use the ticket.' (or some such equivalent wording)

(sorry not sure why but I can't seem to unbold this last para!)

 

[dayslikethese2]

Did you present BOTH tickets to the inspector on the train? If so, make that very clear in your letter. It has always struck me as a flaw that this situation is not covered clearly in the T&Cs of the railcard. The current practice, as seems to have happend here, may be considered unfair (vindictive), that someone who IS entitled to travel and is in possession of two tickets should be penalised further because their companion is missing. If it became subject to proper public scrutiny I would expect to see updated guidance issued on how to handle this situation that did not involve any further payment.

Hello, yes I did - actually you can't purchase the ticket with the discount unless you buy two.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Aug 2024 ==

On this my view does vary in that I can see no harm in including them - as it helps demonstrate the OP had spent money on tickets and may just (but but in not way for sure) might influence GTR to offer a lower settlement charge if they are minded to be sympathetic. We know GTR are usually reasonable so the risk of prosecution IMHO is very low, but this may help get the OP a more modest settlement offer financially. There is surely nothing to lose.

It's clear to me that the OP had no intention to evade the fare and simply made a mistake on the day after it became clear that the 2 people could not travel together. So I see no harm in mentioning the original tickets bought and the proof of that.

Also - to @dayslikethese2 if you do mention your ND in your reply as a factor in what happened I would indeed substantiate that with proof of diagnosis since you indicate you have such proof and can thus easily include it.

Also - I think what is missing from your letter is a sentence making it 100% clear 'that the second person's discounted ticket was never used, and there was no attempt to use it as circumstances meant that at the last minute they were unable to travel, and the second traveller never had possession of that ticket and thus would not have been able to use the ticket.' (or some such equivalent wording)

(sorry not sure why but I can't seem to unbold this last para!)

Confusingly they did end up travelling back with me as they arrived to the destination by other means much later on. I'm not sure how relevant that is to my case but our return tickets were used appropriately within regulations. Should I mention this or will it overcomplicate the letter? I'm wary of putting in too much detail.

 

[Haywain]

Should I mention this or will it overcomplicate the letter?

I wouldn't mention it - not because it's better to hide the fact but because it makes no material difference to the journey under discussion.

 

[dayslikethese2]

I wouldn't mention it - not because it's better to hide the fact but because it makes no material difference to the journey under discussion.

Thanks for this. That's very helpful.

 

[WesternLancer]

Confusingly they did end up travelling back with me as they arrived to the destination by other means much later on. I'm not sure how relevant that is to my case but our return tickets were used appropriately within regulations. Should I mention this or will it overcomplicate the letter? I'm wary of putting in too much detail.

I wouldn't mention it for same reason Haywain states, and indeed nothing wrong with using it on the return, but it may mean (if you are minded to include it) re-wording my suggested addition for accuracy. I'll adjust my own wording shortly for you to consider.

New wording:

I think what is missing from your letter is a sentence making it clear

'that the second person's discounted ticket was not used on this journey as at the last minute they were unable to travel, and the second traveller did not have possession of that ticket and travelled by other means.'

(or some such equivalent wording)
I have sought to find a form of words that covers the fact it was not used on the outward journey but does not distract by mentioning the return journey, on which there was no issue and you are not being asked about.