Thameslink Programme, South Central & South Eastern area fleet cascades etc

[Edvid]

Good news indeed overall. Though I wonder why 503/506 haven't left yet, insignificant as it may be.

How many more 377/5s in service are needed to release enough 319s for the exams? Come to think of it, how many of each non-377 diagram are in operation at the moment?

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Good news indeed overall. Though I wonder why 503/506 haven't left yet, insignificant as it may be.

How many more 377/5s in service are needed to release enough 319s for the exams? Come to think of it, how many of each non-377 diagram are in operation at the moment?

Im juat guessing here but 503/506 could have been finished except parts waiting and put aside, while other units were there when the nessary parts came in?

As for how many 377/5 are needed to release the 319s, well info wasn't in the briefing but all 15 diagrams are expected to filled by 377/5s by September so this will release 4 319 from todays figures, enough for heavy maintance on a couple of trains. Filling all 15 377/5 requires 16 trains, which means another 8 units after 509/510 is deliveried to Cauldwell. If Bombardier can deliver one 377/5 a week then this is possible by Sept. Just.

**update**

319 diagrams total 82. Thats made up of 37 319/3 diagrams (7xx) and 45 319/4 diagrams (8xx).

So diagrams go

377/5 601>615
319/3 701>737
319/4 801>845
317 901

 

[Edvid]

The 377/5 saga continues...

In case you've not heard already, 377509 has been around for just over 4 weeks now and it's still on test, failing its first 7 acceptance runs. I'm not sure how 510 is doing, and the latest planned Derby delivery yesterday...you've guessed it, caped.

Once you discount the 6th accepted 377 for training/maintainence etc then that leaves 92 units for 98 diagrams.

Digressing slightly, the 1700 BDM-GLM called at LTN on time but was on the Up Fast/Platform 3 (FCC services are rarely scheduled to do that). Any insights?

 

[mackenzie_blu]

The 377/5 saga continues...

In case you've not heard already, 377509 has been around for just over 4 weeks now and it's still on test, failing its first 7 acceptance runs. I'm not sure how 510 is doing, and the latest planned Derby delivery yesterday...you've guessed it, caped.

Once you discount the 6th accepted 377 for training/maintainence etc then that leaves 92 units for 98 diagrams.

Digressing slightly, the 1700 BDM-GLM called at LTN on time but was on the Up Fast/Platform 3 (FCC services are rarely scheduled to do that). Any insights?

Compared with 377505, 509 is abit of bad news.

As for the 6th unit, well actually its been in service alot lately. Last week when I was in the core most of the time all units were in service at some point and as far as I know no other unit has had a livery.

There is a run for a 377/5 to be deliveried on sunday, we'll have to wait and see. To be honest I don't think it'll happen till either 509 or 510 is passed and given to FCC. I can't see them doing commissioning runs for three units each night. Wonder if 509 will be the 3rd 377/5 to return to Derby. That would make it the 3rd of 7 units to do so.

As for the 1700 service, maybe it was trying to make up time and had been diverted onto the fast. Its happened a few times when they've misse dout stops in the past and with the current driver shortage I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case.

Still can't get over the Elephant to Kentish Town shuttle in the morning!

Nice post number btw

 

[mackenzie_blu]

377511 was deliveried to Selhurst last night according to John from Thameslink group.

9 down
14 to go.

377509 has been on test lately on its own and seems not to be breaking down. Maybe we'll be seeing more 377/5 on Thameslink this month.

 

[westcoaster]

When I went passed this morning there was a 66 plus translators, sitting around the side of the depot, assumed another one had been delivered.

 

[466.networkers]

I went on the 1700 BED - GLM, (joined at EPH) this evening, was formed of 501 and 505, nothing seemed out of the ordinary to be honest.

To me, living in Kent, it was another Electrostar, but I found it smoother than the 375/6 etc that we have down here. Nice interior, clean and best of all, comfy seats - why can't SET lose the hard seats out of the 375/9 and replace them with the usual 375 seats??

Thanks
Ryan

 

[thelem]

best of all, comfy seats - why can't SET lose the hard seats out of the 375/9 and replace them with the usual 375 seats??

I assume you were in one of the 2+2 driving coaches, which have fairly comfortable seats (althogh the moquette could do to be softer, like it is on 377/1 and 377/3 units).

The 3+2 seats in the trailer coaches are like ironing boards and should not be permitted (even ignoring my objections to 3+2 seating in general).

 

[mackenzie_blu]

The 10th 377/5 unit is on its way to Selhurst. The unit in question is 377512. That will be the 4th unit at Selhurst, joining 509/510/511.

This is getting better for Thameslink customer as we finally in double figures!

 

[johnb]

The 10th 377/5 unit is on its way to Selhurst. The unit in question is 377512. That will be the 4th unit at Selhurst, joining 509/510/511.

This is getting better for Thameslink customer as we finally in double figures!

I could be wrong, but I thought the initial impact of the 377/5s coming into service was going to be to send the eight 377/2s back to Southern? Hence we'll need to have nine 377/5s in regular service before things start getting better for Thameslink customers...?

 

[westcoaster]

from what i gather any new delivered 377's are to be comissioned and then sent to cauldwell to go into warm store/shuffled with delivered 377/5's until all the power upgrades are completed, as there is not enough power to have them all running i heard august will be when the power upgrade is completed.

so this presents a couple of question's, if all 377/5's had been delivered on schedule, would they just be sitting in sidings/depots waiting for the upgrade to be completed?

could this be why there are 4 377/5's at selhurst, they may well have been comissioned but just not delivered due to space.

 

[jon0844]

Perhaps they're broken already!

 

[mackenzie_blu]

I could be wrong, but I thought the initial impact of the 377/5s coming into service was going to be to send the eight 377/2s back to Southern? Hence we'll need to have nine 377/5s in regular service before things start getting better for Thameslink customers...?

Actually we need 11 377/5 as there are currently six 377/5 and five 377/2 in service on Thameslink. There wont be any additional service until October on FCC. Currently FCC has 15 diagrams so until more than 14 are deliveried its unlikely the current situation will change. When I said good things for Thameslink customers should have added Southern as well as these means thaqt progress is being made and slowly we are getting there.

from what i gather any new delivered 377's are to be comissioned and then sent to cauldwell to go into warm store/shuffled with delivered 377/5's until all the power upgrades are completed, as there is not enough power to have them all running i heard august will be when the power upgrade is completed.

so this presents a couple of question's, if all 377/5's had been delivered on schedule, would they just be sitting in sidings/depots waiting for the upgrade to be completed?

could this be why there are 4 377/5's at selhurst, they may well have been comissioned but just not delivered due to space.

Well any further 377/5 deliveries would not go warn storage, they would release 377/5 so until the 13th unit was deliveried not unit would go into warm storage. Likely the additional units would be used for driver training and having livery applied rather than just sat around.

Your right on the power supplies. There is currently a limit of 11 FCC Electrostars on the BML due to fears of overloading the power supply. The upgrades are due to be completed by 20th August so not that long. Bare in mind by this point only 10 or 11 377/5 are likely to be in service by then.

Currently there are four 377/5 at Selhurst and they none are commisioned yet. Bare in mind they can't commision too many units at the same time as early runs require an additional 377 and extra staff. The original plan was to only commision two at a time so for now two will sit waiting. So give a chance to actually get these units out.

377509
Deliveried on 28th May, failed its first 7 test runs and has been out recently with 377510. This unit was caught up in the recent 377/5 withdrawn issues and likely the last to have the mods fitted.

377510
Deliveried on 15th June. Had a few test runs so far successful.

377511
Deliveried on 1st july and currently awaiting its first test run.

377512
Deliveried yesterday morning so untested as yet.

Nothing been heard of 377506 but 377503 has been seen on the test track at Derby so may be the 11th unit. Also noted at the same time as 503 was an un-numbered 377/5.

Also note that it takes 3-4 weeks to comission a single unit, doing two units may affect this. This should mean atleast a couple of units will be with FCC by late July/early August.

There is a 377/5 returning to Derby to have additional owrk on it. Currently is one of the four units above at Selhurst. Guessing it would be 377509 due to all the problems with this unit.

 

[thelem]

from what i gather any new delivered 377's are to be comissioned and then sent to cauldwell to go into warm store/shuffled with delivered 377/5's until all the power upgrades are completed, as there is not enough power to have them all running.

I can't see any 377/5s going into storage until all 377/2s are returned to Southern.

 

[jon0844]

It really is pathetic (no blame on FCC here) that Bombardier - with all of its experience and history - can't just build a train that works from the off. It's not even a custom-built train, it's an 'off-the-shelf' model!

My local bus operator has just purchased some small Optare buses and they're made in the UK. Out of two buses they got for my route, both have leaking windows, seats that are working loose or squeaking badly, loose hand rails and - more importantly - one has engine problems and has been breaking down! Oh, and one of the buses no longer has working front or rear LED boards.

They got them last July FFS!!

 

[MCR247]

Our new versas are crap aswell. the omnidekkas arent too bad

 

[73110]

The elusive 509....... Have a look at the state of the front of it, it was filthy!!

Also 511 and 509 side by side and a 350 in the same shed too.

377510 was outside around the side next to the training centre and no sign of 377512 anywhere.

 

[westcoaster]

there was one parked behind the new shed, one road out from the ac tester which was very shiny indeed.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

The elusive 509....... Have a look at the state of the front of it, it was filthy!!

Also 511 and 509 side by side and a 350 in the same shed too.

377510 was outside around the side next to the training centre and no sign of 377512 anywhere.

Nice pictures, heres mine

377509
377510

377509 should be filthy, its been out on test atleast 10 times on the BML so I doubt they'll clean it until they are ready to go to Bedford.

**UPDATE**

Tim from Electrostars group has just posted that both 377506 and 377513 have been sighted in building at Derby and an identified 377/5 outside. Im guessing the unknown one is 377503 as that was seen around last week. So the two 'missing' units have now been spotted.

 

[73110]

Nice pics but what were you doing in Selhurst?!?!?!?!? hock:

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Nice pics but what were you doing in Selhurst?!?!?!?!? hock:

Helpful to have spies everywhere

 

[Electrostar]

Feature here on Siemens' Desiro candidate for the Thameslink order.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...mens-offers-desiro-city-to-the-uk-market.html

 

[MCR247]

Will they be used in multiple like now with the 319s? Cos wouldnt gangways be the way forward

 

[thelem]

No, they will be fixed length units of either 8 or 12 car length (or equivilent - more, but shorter cars are likely if articulation is used).

 

[mackenzie_blu]

The reason for fixed length is less wasted space for things like cabs and more seats for customers.

 

[Burkitt]

They can also get away with less of the enormous disabled toilets if they use fixed sets. There has to be one in every unit, so using normal four car units would require three times as many of them as in a fixed twelve car unit.

Paul

 

[jon0844]

I suspect they'll still put in more than 2 toilets on a 12-car train, if only because they'd be filled up and out of use pretty quickly otherwise.

For trains that run from Brighton to Bedford, or potentially Brighton to Peterborough or Cambride, I wonder if there would be a benefit to putting in a small shop, and having toilets next to it. It may mean half a carriage is used up for something other than seating, but I think running mostly 12-car trains (especially with such a high frequency in central London) means that they won't be filled to capacity for some time. You could then have another two toilets (accessible) near the other end.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

I suspect they'll still put in more than 2 toilets on a 12-car train, if only because they'd be filled up and out of use pretty quickly otherwise.

For trains that run from Brighton to Bedford, or potentially Brighton to Peterborough or Cambride, I wonder if there would be a benefit to putting in a small shop, and having toilets next to it. It may mean half a carriage is used up for something other than seating, but I think running mostly 12-car trains (especially with such a high frequency in central London) means that they won't be filled to capacity for some time. You could then have another two toilets (accessible) near the other end.

In peak on some 8 car trains its standing only by City Thameslink so by the time we get 12 car trains in three years I expect to see some trains with very little seating at the start and maybe standing even.

One point is its not high frequency for most people as they want one station, its more destinations rather than more trains. For capicity they're adding more carriages.

Good news tho as 377509 is booked in to go to Bedford today and 377510/511 are due to go Bedford by next weekend and be swapped with 'greens'.

 

[jon0844]

When there are many more services, I am sure that the loadings will be down - and things will be far more comfortable. As usual, it will take time for passengers to learn the best service to use, or the best carriage to use, to spread the load. Some, sadly, never learn!

Either that, or FCC goes for two different configurations - one for the long distance services (and Brighton to Peterborough will be a pretty long distance service!) and one for the shorter 'inner suburban' routes.

I realise this is going back to when some 319s had the lapdanc, sorry, cafe area - but half a carriage reserved for a small shop serving basic refreshments and some toilets seems like a sensible move when these trains serve many areas that are used by leisure travellers and tourists alike.

Alternatively, what about a carriage with fold-up seats in a certain area that can be used for different purposes; standing room on morning/evening commutes and an area where a trolley can be set up for refreshments at other times. Perhaps even allow bikes in on off-peak services too.

Silly idea or actually quite clever?!

 

[MCR247]

a whole carridge??