Thameslink Programme, South Central & South Eastern area fleet cascades etc

[Edvid]

(I forget if it still has Guildford on it?)

Yup, it's still there.

I was working at Blackfriars this evening and its a eerie place now with all the tenants gone and the large drop in passenger numbers.

Regarding the reduced patronage, do you mean since the LUL station closed?

 

[mackenzie_blu]

I can tell you now from the staff point of view today saw little difference in terms of passanger numbers tho I will admit that there were few questions in the evening peak than I expected. They didnt like the walk back to Blackfriars from the Tube in the evening and wouldn't be surprised as time goes on if habits change from this week. Seems they are willing to try it out or really don't pay any attension and got a massive shock this morning! (Guessing some had the latter).

Last week watching them pull the internals of the shops to piece was a werid experience. The station feels like a shell and is only going to feel/look worse come next month when the bay hording come out. Note already the line of hordings is down on the platforms so you can get an idea now what its going to be like for some time.

One thing doesnt change, they want their new timetables. Which Im glad to say has arrived tho aren't out for customers yet (this will soon change).

As for hopes these timetables would be ok, looking at it today properly for the first time and I just thing they aren't upto the questions I has asked with one to hand. Hopefully they are going to realise that this cant continue and go back to the old ways and just have to keep Sevenoaks as a seperate timetable. I know know there are other timetables being looked at to simplify things.

I have to admit as a TLP staff member we got alot of briefing and there is atleast one new briefing a week at Blackfriars to keep staff upto date with whats going on and how things are going to change and how to deal with that. Including some rather nice building documents! The full size plan of each 'step' during the platform move being rather interesting to someone like me with a construction history.

 

[73110]

I see some units are now going around with destination blinds that are black background and yellow writing on them.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

I see some units are now going around with destination blinds that are black background and yellow writing on them.

I noticed this today myself. Curious as the older black on white destinations have the needed 'new' destinations (and a few others).

I think its to do with the fact these are more visible than the older ones. Im not sure thats 100% true or maybe they want to match the new 377/5 and the 377/2 units? (stranger things have happened!)

 

[westcoaster]

I noticed this today myself. Curious as the older black on white destinations have the needed 'new' destinations (and a few others).

I think its to do with the fact these are more visible than the older ones. Im not sure thats 100% true or maybe they want to match the new 377/5 and the 377/2 units? (stranger things have happened!)

the new blinds have all the new and old required destinations on them, i do have a full list of destinations if anyone requires it

FULL LIST HERE
View attachment Class 319 new destination blind in order top to bottom.doc

 

[73110]

Where is Kent House???????

 

[Edvid]

On the Chatham Main Line between Penge East and Beckenham Junction (in SE London).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Today FCC have made public the current situation regarding Key Output 0 and what will happen as a result.

Points are as follows (until all 377/5s are in service):

* 3 377/5s are expected in service by 22 March
* Southern will sub-lease 8 377/2s to FCC
* There will be 3 spare EMUs in the fleet (compared to 10 with full fleet)
* An extra peak service to Bedford will start from Farringdon at 1816
* 4 of the planned joint FCC/SER services to Kentish Town and beyond will be truncated at City Thameslink and will utilise 4 Networkers
* The overhaul/refresh programme at Wolverton has been postponed
* 2,778 extra peak-hour seats will be provided per weekday (compared to 3,393 with full fleet)

 

[paul1609]

I think to you'll find that the 377/2s are on short term hire to FCC (not a sub lease) and that numbers will be reduced as 377/5s are introduced. The plan only runs to the summer timetable introduction.

 

[Edvid]

Short-term hire? OK then, but I still implied it was a temporary solution anyway (the relevant phrase is above the points and in brackets).

A few articles have popped up, including one by Modern Railways which has a picture of 377501 inside Cauldwell depot.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

I was wondering when they would announce that this extra train will run out of Moorgate. Seems they have now!

Interesting they moved 377501 inside for the photo shoot and chucked all the other trains out of the shed to get that picture.

Seems FCC didnt get the figure of 377/2s it actually asked for but 8 is better than none I suppose.

 

[westcoaster]

Short-term hire? OK then, but I still implied it was a temporary solution anyway (the relevant phrase is above the points and in brackets).

A few articles have popped up, including one by Modern Railways which has a picture of 377501 inside Cauldwell depot.

X that is not cauldwell depot that looks like the cleaning shed at selhurst.

dear me terrible journalism

 

[Edvid]

Well I'll say...

 

[73110]

Looks like the shed at Selhurst. Does the Cauldwell shed have overheads running through it? Reason I ask is that when I have been past and looked over I have seen a small hole at the top of the doors for the wires.....

Anyhow, just heard the first FCC 377 working will be the 0420 off Bedford to Brighton, the first morning arrival at Brighton (0529) on the 23rd. (Sun night, Mon morning).

Also heard that all the 377's will be based and berthed at Bedford.

 

[Edvid]

Come to think of it, I think the OHLE does run into the depot.

I originally thought that the 377/5s would officially be Selhurst units, but then again I suppose they're really following the sub-leased NSR 319s which have been given Bedford Cauldwell-allocated diagrams like the rest for years now.

As much as I'd like to ride a 377 on the MML soon, I'm not getting up that early!

 

[class377man]

Just noticed on live departures that the core is open today. How come?

 

[Edvid]

It's open this weekend because engineering work has been cancelled. Not sure why though.

 

[73110]

This is what Elaine Holt has to say about the 377's in the weekly newsletter

Originally, 23 brand new Class 377 trains were supposed to be
delivered before 22 March to run the new timetable, but these
have been delayed due to knock-on effects of the credit crunch
and various failures from train manufacturer Bombardier.
However, we reached an arrangement with Southern this week,
who have agreed to lend us eight additional Class 377/2s for the
first four weeks of the new timetable and lower numbers of
377/2s for up to 12 weeks.
And indeed, the first Class 377 was delivered to Bedford depot
last Friday (pictured below). The engineering team is now
completing maintenance assessments on this train, whilst
Southern is performing mileage tests on the second unit, which
we expect to receive next week. Unfortunately, due to more
Bombardier issues, both these units will have to return to Derby
before they can run in service; all in all, FCC has been put in a
very difficult position due to Bombardier’s failures and we will
have to work very hard to deliver a full service to our customers.

Same picture is used in the weekly brief as posted earlier.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Core open as NR cancelled enginerring works last weekend and this weekend.

If the first 377/2 run is on the 23rd then I wouldn't be surprised. Tho the view that they will have 3 by this date seems now impossible. Two yes but three, its too late. Im wondering if 377501 is going to run as a four car unit for awhile. I think it is as staff training still needed before they can run in multiples.

They built a exyended the shed at Bedford Caudwell for the 377 as thats where the entire 23 unit fleet is expected to be based. Don't forget Selhurst is a Southern delpot and FCC has no say on stuff that happens here. Im sure they want their new trains under their lock and key.

Intresting a few 319 will sleep at Selhurst and come into service from the depot. There's a reference in the new timetable for the service from Selhurst but no times.

As for the statement,well the original idea was for Bombarbier to have a fleet of 23 377/5 ready by December 2008 so they are very late units. This deal still leaves FCC 13 trains down compare to what the timetable was planned to be. That in anyone book it bad as it means limited spares until Bombarbier manage to get a few units out.

And the rumour that the 377/5 have to go back to Derby seems to be true according to that statement. wonder why tho?

 

[Edvid]

There are already two Cauldwell 319 diagrams that move ECS from depot to station then start passenger service at Selhurst (0536/0556) and join the 'normal' network between Streatham Common and Streatham, with another 2 diagrams heading ECS to Selhurst depot. Before December 2008 there were three in each direction.

Since NSR have agreed to hire 8 377/2s in the short-term, that'll cover the thrice-daily return Ashford/Medway services along with (I reckon) 2 spares even if all 377/5s happen to be in Derby at the time.* Personally I can't see 377s running in isolation during the peaks because they have less total (seated and standing) capacity than 319s do.

As for the original delivery dates, the first 12 were expected by January 2009, and the following 11 by Q1 2009 according to Bombardier press releases in May 2007 and March 2008 respectively. About 10 months ago, the expectations were that between 5 and 9 units would be in service in December 2008.

[* I'm a little puzzled about that, and I wonder if links can be drawn between that and the third 377/5s that's yet to leave Derby or even be identified.]

 

[mackenzie_blu]

One issue to bear in mind if untill FCC staff are trained on coupling and uncoupling on the 377s any issue means both units have to go out of service back to depot. That in the peaks would be disastous. That training is coming but with no set date.

Do you know what timetable these Selhurst FCC services are on tho because they aren't in the FCC timetable until Herne Hill and there is no reference where to look for that information.

Im going to dig to find out why these units need to return to derby. This is a curious development. Wonder how long as well?

Has anyone any information on whats going on with 504?

 

[73110]

I think the drivers can do all the work themselves. It's a case of opening/closing a few doors in the middle and that takes all of about a min' and a half.

There is no real need for the platform staff to do anything at the moment although it would just make the process a bit quicker but not by much.

I can't see the MD loosing too much sleep that the platform staff are not trained yet.

 

[Tom C]

Do you know what timetable these Selhurst FCC services are on tho because they aren't in the FCC timetable until Herne Hill and there is no reference where to look for that information.

Up until the latest one(and it may still be in here) they are mentioned in the normal FCC timetable with a note that they will stop at Selhurst, Thornton Heath, Norbury and Streatham Common before taking up the "normal" route at Streatham.

The two trains are:

2V94: SRS (0536 ), TTH (0538 ), NRB (0540), SRC (0543), STE (0546) then running all stations to BDM (Arr 0729)

2V98: SRC (0556 ), TTH (0558 ), NRB (0600), SRC (0603), STE (0606) then running all stations to BDM (Arr 0754)

Interesting the headcodes for this train used to be 2J** which refer to all trains which run from SRC to STE however FCC changed them to 2V** which normally refers to an anti-clockwise Sutton Loop train.

None of the stations between Selhurst and Streatham Common have been noted as FCC stations since regular services were stopped under NSE. The stations carry FCC posters and litrature.

 

[paul1609]

Apparently the sub lease of the 377/5s to FCC ends in september with the end of the current Southern Franchise!

 

[Edvid]

Sounds like codswallop. The ITT for the new South Central franchise includes the requirement for the new franchisee to honour the sub-lease until September 2013, which includes an additional 3 units from December 2011 (see pages 41 and 42):

3.5.3.1 Rolling Stock Cascades
As specified in section 3.3.1.3.3 Bidders will be required to hire 3 x 4 car dual voltage units to FCC from December 2011. Bidders should assume that this arrangement ceases in September 2013.
Bidders should also assume that the 92 vehicles that are on sublease from South Central to FCC begin to return from FCC in September 2013 and will all be returned by the timetable change date in December 2013. It should be assumed that units return in accordance with the Hand Back Schedule included in the draft Franchise Agreement.

The return of the 3 units hired to FCC and cascade of the further 92 vehicles is dependent on these trains being displaced from FCC services by new build Thameslink Key Output 2 rolling stock. The return dates assumed above represent the current plan but the programme for building and commissioning of the new trains is not yet confirmed. Bidders are required to provide alternative pricing scenarios if Class 377 hand back has to be delayed. A separate technical instruction provides the detailed requirements in this area.

Bidders should note comments regarding Thameslink Key Output 2 rolling stock assumptions in section 3.3.1.3.4.

 

[David Sinnett]

Personally I can't see 377s running in isolation during the peaks because they have less total (seated and standing) capacity than 319s do.

QUOTE]

Is there a limit to standing capacity, how do you measure it and how do you regulate it?

 

[73110]

Don't think there is a limit to how many people are allowed to stand. It is called 'Overcrowding'.

I have seen some trains in periods of disruption absolutely rammed solid. Therefore I would safely bet that there is no limit so no need to regulate it.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

I think the drivers can do all the work themselves. It's a case of opening/closing a few doors in the middle and that takes all of about a min' and a half.

There is no real need for the platform staff to do anything at the moment although it would just make the process a bit quicker but not by much.

I can't see the MD loosing too much sleep that the platform staff are not trained yet.

Yes the driver can do it but Im told from their managers that platform staff need to be trained to assist the driver. And I know whose going to be doing the training as well.

The services which the 377's are taking over are a busy route with people standing upon leaving Blackfriars. Overcrowding is an issue especially if the units are short formed. some are currently 6 or 8 cars (Networkers) so a 4 car 377 would be crowded.

There may not be no offical limit but a train can be stopped if its 'dangerous'.

 

[westcoaster]

I see that there is a set of translator veichels at selhurst, maybe for 504's trip back to derby.

Or another delivery.

 

[paul1609]

Sounds like codswallop.

Not surprising since I was in fact joking!
However i reckon the way things are going theres a good chance that not all of the 377/5s will be in service before the franchise ends.

 

[Edvid]

Thank God for that! In any case, they won't all be here anytime soon.

Gen on the 377/5 trips to Derby now available on se-gen:

#18376: Have been informed that the 2 377s which have been delivered have to return to
Derby for modifications. 377501 has done a 5z01 Bedford-Selhurst today and from
a list 66730 is working a 5z66 Willesden-Selhurst.
#18379: Understand 377504 12+00 Selhurst - Derby, on Tuesday.