Thameslink Programme, South Central & South Eastern area fleet cascades etc

[Edvid]

In addition, the 442 conversions are indeed well behind schedule - so in the interim 7 377/2s (201/203-208 ) have been transferred from the Selhurst pool to the Lovers Walk (BI) pool in order to cover Coastway/GEx duties alongside the other BI 377s. 377202 is still in the SU pool.

As for 319214, it was pure chance that I saw it at StP for at the second time in a week (first sighting was on Monday). I had other things to do at the time but I did manage to board the unit at West Hampstead (it reversed at Luton), ride the Wimbledon Loop and alight at Farringdon. At the time of posting it should be at the tail-end of the 1732 Wimbledon - Bedford with 319456 (non-stop StP - St Albans).

319215 was seen in passenger service with 319443 earlier today as well. According to another member of the Thameslink Yahoo Group it's on the 1828 Moorgate - Bedford and the 1950 Bedford - Brighton tonight.

 

[Edvid]

From what I've heard its likely that FCC will have only a few or possibly no 377s available in March.

The official line is that 14 377/5s will be available by March 22. But with 501 not due to be taken to Selhurst until at least December 30 now, you do begin to wonder...

Speaking of 501, a member of the southernrailway Yahoo Group mentioned that the unit was completed in November but when it was inspected they found more than 30 faults! Basically speaking (according to Roger Ford), Bombardier and their sub-contractors carried out poor quality work (same problems affecting the 378s too) and the aforementioned Y! Group member states they're still rectifying the faults found on 501 as we speak (and I presume on the other 377/5s that have been built already).

Roger Ford also states that Key Output 0 works are running behind schedule, in particular (perhaps unsurprisingly) the footbridge replacement at Farringdon which apparently requires 3 separate line possessions.

 

[class 313]

I have seen 2 of the 319/2s. Also Pinky and Perky have made their way to Bedford finally!

 

[Edvid]

So 364 finally got further than Bletchley this time! 367 should be en-route to Wolverton by now.

 

[class 313]

So 364 finally got further than Bletchley this time! 367 should be en-route to Wolverton by now.

Both the Rainbow units are at Bedford.

 

[Edvid]

I already knew about the arrival of 364/365 after your previous post. I was just remarking the fact that it took three attempts to sort the former unit out - on the first two trips from Wolverton it was turned back at Bletchley.

367 is not a 'Rainbow' unit - it's next in the list for an overhaul and refresh.

 

[class 313]

I already knew about the arrival of 364/365 after your previous post. I was just remarking the fact that it took three attempts to sort the former unit out - on the first two trips from Wolverton it was turned back at Bletchley.

367 is not a 'Rainbow' unit - it's next in the list for an overhaul and refresh.

Ah ^^ all makes sense, sorry quite ill atm.

 

[Edvid]

OK, no worries. And get well soon.

 

[class 313]

OK, no worries. And get well soon.

Thanks mate.

I see no one has got any shots of the rainbow units on the MML yet.

 

[westcoaster]

both units tucked up at cauldwell, when is 430 due for overhaul, will the /2's be done last.

some pics from derby here of some 377/5 vehicles
http://aaron60.fotopic.net/c1628219.html

 

[Edvid]

Besides 430, there are 8 /4s which were repainted (and probably overhauled) early in the franchise but not internally refreshed. The 19 remaining unrefreshed /3s will be done before 430 and the internally unrefreshed /4s (429/431/438/439/443-445/447) - all at Wolverton.

On the other hand, the /(0,2)s will undergo a 'mini-refresh' at Hornsey because Southern had them overhauled and refreshed at Wolverton quite recently. However I don't expect that particular task will start until the 20-unit PoterbrookSouthern head lease is replaced with a PorterbrookFCC head lease, and that won't happen until 217-220 are cascaded to FCC. I'm not aware of the order in which they'll be sorted.

There must be a fair few 377/5 coaches at Litchurch Lane by the looks of things. Shame the first unit won't be released until at least January 5 2009 (speaking of which - the component suppliers are having financial difficulties, so I hear).

 

[westcoaster]

beat me to it was just about to post that link cheers for the info.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

I just wonder what the hell they are going to do because if they dont have the rolling stock the the whole TLP is gonna get delayed!

 

[class 313]

I just wonder what the hell they are going to do because if they dont have the rolling stock the the whole TLP is gonna get delayed!

I'm not sure what you mean? Platform extensions will carry on, just not with required trains until march to utilize the extensions.

 

[Edvid]

A reminder:

The Key Output 0 services will be 8 cars max. as per today but the difference is the merging of FCC Moorgate and SER Blackfriars services to provide additional cross-London services. The 377/5s are critical to the TLP delivery since the ex-Blackfriars services will require dual-voltage rolling stock; until enough is available neither the Blackfriars bay platforms nor the Moorgate branch can be vacated - the problem being that as a consequence you can't rebuild Farringdon or Blackfriars to the required specification for Key Output 1 (12-car max.) services. There would also be follow-on implications for the 'full-range' Key Output 2 services (especially at London Bridge where the biggest works are planned).

As to what can be done when KO0 services are due to start without all 23 377/5s in place by then - see question and answer 41 of the latest FCC webchat.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Basically what david says 313.

Tho the wording seems to be that there is some plan that if there aren't enough 377/5s we are going to nick some trains from somewhere else.

I doubt FCC would be happy to run without the services and short form some trains and really annoy the customers.

 

[Edvid]

Basically what david says

Thanks

My money's on NSR sub-leasing some 377/2s to FCC, which was actually part of an earlier KO0 plan except that they won't be backfilled by Networkers from SER this time. Ideally the 442 GEx conversions should be finished before then.

A member of the southernrailway Y! Group suggested that perhaps NSR could take on more 442s and use those to release some 377/2s, and/or SER could perhaps use a few 'spare' (ex-Blackfriars) 465s to indirectly backfill a few 375/6s (route availability permitting) which could then go to NSR and provide some slack should some 377/2s go to FCC. Not ideal, but if FCC are right then the rail industry are keen to maintain the TLP on course at near all costs.

 

[thelem]

Pausing the overhauls at Wolverton would also free up 2 units.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

I had a thought on it on the way into work (and nothings being said internally)

But seeing as SouthEastern is getting Networkers released by the 319/377s, why dont they lend FCC some 375/6's as they are DV are they not?

Would seem a fair swap as an short term measure to me!

 

[Edvid]

I brought that up with the Thameslink Y! Group back in mid-2008 as an alternative to the NSR DV 377 option, and it turns out that certain parts of the SER mainline network (e.g. Tonbridge - Hastings) are not cleared for Networkers, so very few (3 apparently) 375 diagrams are suitable for substitution by Networkers. In addition, 375s are diagrammed rather tightly so SER can't really afford to cascade any without finding other units to cover their diagrams.

If the above problems didn't exist then I'm sure 375/6s would have been the TL Electrostar sub-class of choice - in fact they were possibly going to become part of a previous incarnation of the planned Thameslink fleet (back in the twilight of the Thameslink 2000 era), along with the rest of the 375s and even new 375s (!). 375/6s could become part of the contingency KO0 fleet as alluded to in my previous post but we'll have to wait and see.

Oh, and one more thing...

Merry Christmas everyone!

 

[westcoaster]

we touched on it befors 375/6 are not compatible for the tl route all due to the fact there are no cctv camera's for Doo use, so thats is a no starter.

319216 was running solo on the 24h she split of the 0640 bedford to morgate at moorgate then formed the 0810 back to bedford.

 

[class 313]

Nor do 319s/317s though?

 

[westcoaster]

all to do with grandfather right's im told

 

[class 313]

all to do with grandfather right's im told

Oh I see, makes sense.

 

[westcoaster]

also on any 377 or 375 your seating position does not allow you to see out the side window as you sit ahead of the side window, and the seat is in a fixed position so you cant carry out look back checks.

 

[Edvid]

I must admit I thought grandfather rights were only associated with platform lengths and not train dispatch. Now you mention it I do remember hearing somewhere that 'looking back' through an Electrostar cab side window was not possible, however I have also heard that certain 375 diagrams are partially DOO (only at Greater London stations, give or take) and involve both platform displays and 'bat and flag' dispatch.

Therefore the GRs you speak of must be quite new, which intrigues me because the first 375 was delivered for testing in autumn 1999 and Luton Airport Parkway (which opened on 21 November 1999) has never been eligible for any 'platform length' GRs whatsoever. I have no idea if 'platform length' and 'train dispatch' GRs are the same or different.

 

[westcoaster]

edvid if you have noticed that there has been cd/ra indicators provided at some sations along the line i.e bedford/luton/st.albans this is to do with the introduction of 377's, this is to stop the looking back from the cab on 377 which would cause time delays.

on southeastern services the 375's only stop at stations with despatch staff im told i.e bat and flag /torch (despatch staff along the train and next to the lead cab) or cd/ra

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Just thought I let you know the first 377 is expected to be deliveried to FCC mid/late January and be used for driver training with it going into public service once more units arrive.

 

[Edvid]

So FCC didn't complete the driver training with the former 'resident' then?

If FCC won't get the first unit until mid/late Jan then I suppose January 5 is yet another missed Selhurst delivery date unless the commissioning process takes a long time (unlikely considering NSR have over 180 377s already).

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Im not sure how far the training was completed but that what we're being told.

I was dissapointed to see the latest 'dates' for the new stock. Mean if it takes till late feb for ONE new train to come in then there is little hope to see 14 in service a month later!