Thameslink PIS system is terrible

[vuzzeho]

Does anyone know why the Thameslink internal PIS system on the 700s is so bad? It's visually poor, but also has many technical issues, such as text clipping other text ('Calling at' text being cut off by 'Change here for' text, for example), the system often turning black for seconds at a time for seemingly no reason, and most egregiously, frequently showing the wrong next stop/location - which has led to many people becoming confused and worried, especially when short platform text shows up, or they expect Luton Airport to be in a few stops but the train thinks it's in South London! It feels like it was sloppily thrown together - you can literally see that when the smaller, scrolling text 'isn't there', it's still going but there's an improperly sized blue bar over it!

If this was a new train, I'd have some grace, but they're coming up on 10 years now. Aventras don't seem to have these issues, so why does the 700? And why has nothing been done about it?

Image: A photo from the inside of a 700 with the display showing Mitcham Junction as the next stop, but the sign on the platform showing Kentish Town.

 

[ClivePage]

I agree that they are very bad, and have been intermittently faulty right from the earliest years. In my experience the most frequent failure is to show the name of the next stop. Sometimes the same name stays on display through several stations, then suddenly the PIS remebers where it is and all returns to normal. But I doubt if there is any easy way of checking their functioning during a journey. I also suspect that passengers almost never report this type of problem, and that GTR wouldn't bother to do anything even if they did.

A week or so back I needed to get to Norwood Junction - a station that I don't recall using before. It turned out to have a short platform so the doors in the the last two carriages didn't open. In other cases of stations with short platforms the PIS clearly announces that fact well in advance, but not this time. I was sitting in the 12th carriage all unaware of this and only just managed to run along two carriages to alight there before the doors closed.

 

[Hadders]

I use Thameslink daily and I'd say the PIS screens are some of the best on the network, and much better than what came before them. Very occasionally I've seen erroneous stations or calling patterns but assume this is more an issue with the individual journey set up rather than the system itself.

 

[swr444]

My favourite fault is when you're on an 8-car, and it thinks the train is a 12-car so it says every station has a short platform on the line through Greenwich

 

[jon0844]

I agree that they are very bad, and have been intermittently faulty right from the earliest years. In my experience the most frequent failure is to show the name of the next stop. Sometimes the same name stays on display through several stations, then suddenly the PIS remebers where it is and all returns to normal. But I doubt if there is any easy way of checking their functioning during a journey. I also suspect that passengers almost never report this type of problem, and that GTR wouldn't bother to do anything even if they did.

A week or so back I needed to get to Norwood Junction - a station that I don't recall using before. It turned out to have a short platform so the doors in the the last two carriages didn't open. In other cases of stations with short platforms the PIS clearly announces that fact well in advance, but not this time. I was sitting in the 12th carriage all unaware of this and only just managed to run along two carriages to alight there before the doors closed.

They should announce ahead of the next station that specific doors are not going to open. It's usually shortly after departing the station before in my experience. The red signs don't appear until on the platform, and you're not told what coach you're in other than the standard display that shows all the coaches and where you are.

Generally I find it works pretty well, but I am disappointed that in around ten years they've not managed to get the displays to show information about GTR services (or indeed any services at connecting stations) and just TfL ones. I get that the idea of showing videos was axed after finding it made the system slow to a crawl and even crash, but showing live running info was something they 'promised' before the trains even went into service.

Software updates are rare, which is apparently because the DfT has to sign off every new release, so very little has changed since day one.

 

[ClivePage]

There do seem to be some software updates, e.g. one in the last few months so that the TfL service info shows the new names of all the Overground Lines.

I still find it odd that these screens go wrong so often, after all it's just a bit of electronics, no mechanical parts (I assume), so it really shouldn't be hard to get an uptime of over 99.9%.

 

[AM9]

They should announce ahead of the next station that specific doors are not going to open. It's usually shortly after departing the station before in my experience. The red signs don't appear until on the platform, and you're not told what coach you're in other than the standard display that shows all the coaches and where you are.

Announcing that not all doors open at the next station as soon as the train pulls away from the previous stop gives alighting passengers more warning so they can walk to an appropriate car before it stops.

 

[jon0844]

Announcing that not all doors open at the next station as soon as the train pulls away from the previous stop gives alighting passengers more warning so they can walk to an appropriate car before it stops.

Yes, as I said, but I assumed this wasn't happening in all cases.

There's also a bug that means at some stations every coach is shown as having the doors not opening - but the doors do still release. There's no pre announcement because there is no restriction.

 

[izvor]

One thing they seem to have corrected: the "mind the step" announcement, which used to be several seconds after the doors were opened, and many pax were already on the platform (hopefully still on two legs).

Still wrong: Pronunciation of "Salfords". It's as written, not like Salford the city. Very annoying.

And (as posted above) the "change here for" info is useless - unless you are connecting onto a Metrobus bus!

Other info is useful though.

 

[stadler]

Does anyone know why the Thameslink internal PIS system on the 700s is so bad? It's visually poor, but also has many technical issues, such as text clipping other text ('Calling at' text being cut off by 'Change here for' text, for example), the system often turning black for seconds at a time for seemingly no reason, and most egregiously, frequently showing the wrong next stop/location - which has led to many people becoming confused and worried, especially when short platform text shows up, or they expect Luton Airport to be in a few stops but the train thinks it's in South London! It feels like it was sloppily thrown together - you can literally see that when the smaller, scrolling text 'isn't there', it's still going but there's an improperly sized blue bar over it!

If this was a new train, I'd have some grace, but they're coming up on 10 years now. Aventras don't seem to have these issues, so why does the 700? And why has nothing been done about it?

Image: A photo from the inside of a 700 with the display showing Mitcham Junction as the next stop, but the sign on the platform showing Kentish Town.

I like the large screens and i find that the majority of the time it works well. Televic PIS on the 700s is certainly much better and more reliable than the TrainFX PIS that some other operators use.

I know the 700s seem to sometimes lose track of where it is but i only see this occassionally. This unit a few months ago thought it was at Gordon Hill station on approach to Luton Airport station.

View attachment 191983-4716aa45741158e3f72fd71c74d3cf5e.mp4

For some reason it mainly seems to be the Bedford / Luton / Saint Albans / Sutton / Wimbledon / Orpington / Sevenoaks / Rainham services where the PIS messes up. I rarely ever see it happen on the Brighton / Horsham services. I am not sure if this is just a coincidence or there is something about the other services that makes the PIS mess up more often.

It is likely a problem with Televic (their PIS supplier) as i have occasionally seen the same thing happen on some other operators trains who also use Televic as their PIS supplier.

One thing they seem to have corrected: the "mind the step" announcement, which used to be several seconds after the doors were opened, and many pax were already on the platform (hopefully still on two legs).

Still wrong: Pronunciation of "Salfords". It's as written, not like Salford the city. Very annoying.

And (as posted above) the "change here for" info is useless - unless you are connecting onto a Metrobus bus!

Other info is useful though.

Yes they changed that about six months ago. But it took a while for all units to get the update. It used to play the "mind the gap" message right when the doors were released (the door release triggered it) but now it plays immediately after the "we will shortly be arriving at" announcement on approach to the station.

Another thing i wonder is how they have chosen which stations to play the "mind the gap" message at. For example on the BML it plays at Brighton / Hassocks / Burgess Hill / Wivelsfield / Haywards Heath / Balcombe / Three Bridges / Gatwick Airport stations but not at Preston Park station. I would think it is to do with which stations have a bigger gap but yet it still plays at some stations with perfectly straight platforms and a very small gap. It all seems very random. Some stations with no gap still play it and others do not.

 

[TransportHub]

I often think a better use of screen space would be to have the small screen flick between destination and next stop, then leave the large screen for everything else. So many times I have to wait a few mins for it to flick through loads of irrelevant stuff before showing the next stop.

I believe there is a project to change the system to use headcodes rather than PIS codes, but of course this depends on a good internet connection and the consistent proper suppression of non pax calls (looking at you City Thameslink)

 

[Krystal]

This might as well be a fault with the physical screen itself, but:

 

[jon0844]

I often think a better use of screen space would be to have the small screen flick between destination and next stop, then leave the large screen for everything else. So many times I have to wait a few mins for it to flick through loads of irrelevant stuff before showing the next stop.

I believe there is a project to change the system to use headcodes rather than PIS codes, but of course this depends on a good internet connection and the consistent proper suppression of non pax calls (looking at you City Thameslink)

Yes I think there's an upgrade coming to allow stopping patterns to be more easily modified so they can cope with added stops, amongst other things.

 

[vuzzeho]

It is likely a problem with Televic (their PIS supplier) as i have occasionally seen the same thing happen on some other operators trains who also use Televic as their PIS supplier.

What other operators use Televic? I think the displays have potential but honestly might just need a complete redesign and rewrite to boost robustness and clarity.

 

[liam456]

The absolute worst PIS is those installed on London Overground Aventras. I’ve never seen a system use so much space and a full LCD display so inefficiently, using full sentences in written English to convey so much less information than could be conveyed with clear diagrams like those on WMR Aventras as used in and around Birmingham.

That’s without even talking about the displays on the side of the trains which show completely useless information about how green TfL’s new trains are / fare evasion notices / etc. rather than say a live list of upcoming stops.

 

[stadler]

What other operators use Televic? I think the displays have potential but honestly might just need a complete redesign and rewrite to boost robustness and clarity.

The 195 196 197 231 331 380 385 397 398 700 707 717 756 800 801 802 803 MK5A all use the Televic PIS system. They use a variety of difference screens for different classes but the Televic PIS system is the same.

 

[Bald Rick]

Personally, havign used the 700s since day 1 in passenger service (and before ) I think the PIS is fine. 10 years ago it was revolutionary, but tech moves on.

As a daily user, I see an error on it perhaps once every two months, which is a rather better strike rate than almost any other real time public infomation system I experience from motorway matirx signs to ’bags in hall’ to ‘your package will be delivered between 1107-1207’ etc.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

The 195 196 197 231 331 380 385 397 398 700 707 717 756 800 801 802 803 MK5A all use the Televic PIS system. They use a variety of difference screens for different classes but the Televic PIS system is the same.

Ah so that explains why the 700 I was on a couple months ago had what I called "Civity syndrome" (it said every station we stopped at had a short platform in every carriage).

 

[foggy69]

The issue with the 700 PIS is that it varies in how wrong it can be, even on the same journey. Sometimes the audio is out of sync between coaches. I sometimes forgets completely to announce short platforms, then remembers the next one and only notices the next one in on arrival at the platform. It regularly thinks the train is the other way around, I'm sitting in coach 11 and it thinks it is coach 2. I got on one last week at Farringdon to travel to East Croydon. I got in towards the back of the train so that I could be by the footbridge at Croydon and it was telling me that I was in coach 5 which I most definitely wasn't.

 

[Robski]

The PIS is awful on the Class 700 fleet. A few weeks ago I was on a train that was stuck on a screen I had not seen before where it was just showing the Tramlink (not Thameslink) logo...

A major issue is that there is no information provided on board about short platforms until the train is arriving at a station with a short platform. I have seen a couple of cases of people on ex-Peterborough trains panicking and running because the train has only just decided to tell them that the coach they are in won't fit at Knebworth. (For some reason this specific example is also not being announced at stations up the line, usually the CIS will announce "Passengers for x must travel in the front y coaches").

Another major issue is that the system still relies on static codes to set which route the train is on. So if stops are pulled because the service controller is bored this is not reflected on the on-board displays.

It's also woefully underpowered. Very often (every other day) I see the scrolling text "chopped up" presumably because of some timing bug that no one has figured out. A more recent bug is that for trains heading towards the ECML the screens will already begin showing the "Next Stop Finsbury Park" screen when the doors open at St Pancras International.

This might not be an issue with the software specifically, but the way some information is presented on the train is also woefully inadequate. It's 2026 and apparently the best way to show upcoming stations is to either have some scrolly text or a pointless graphic showing the next 3 calling points? And why is it still unable to show real-time connection information given that it clearly has the capability to do so as it can get live TfL status data? The overall layout of the data being presented is extremely poor and it is clear no one has actually given sufficient consideration to designing it properly.

To top it off, the screen units themselves are very susceptible to damage resulting in discolouring. And the driver PA handsets seem to have a persistent issue where the audio keeps cutting out... I could go on!

 

[whoosh]

The unit in the cab is like something from the 1990s, and you can only 'skip' stations if it's the next station. So for example, if you know your are to skip stations via Redhill and run fast East Croydon to Gatwick, you can only skip the stops at East Croydon for the displays even if you know earlier on.

The new system in the cab, which will be a touchscreen and able to download alterations on the move from Control, was supposed to be fitted a couple of years ago, but apparently there were problems with the company supplying this new system.
It is now looking like early 2027 when it will be fitted.

 

[jon0844]

A major issue is that there is no information provided on board about short platforms until the train is arriving at a station with a short platform. I have seen a couple of cases of people on ex-Peterborough trains panicking and running because the train has only just decided to tell them that the coach they are in won't fit at Knebworth. (For some reason this specific example is also not being announced at stations up the line, usually the CIS will announce "Passengers for x must travel in the front y coaches").

The issue is that if a train is going to do an additional stop, it can't be added to the stopping pattern. Therefore it can't announce a short platform. In the case of Knebworth, I doubt any 12 car trains are booked to call - so if a 9xxx train is filling in during disruption, it will probably say the next stop is Stevenage. Then when it stops, the rear four won't release and that will be the first some even know where they are. Likewise, some people will get off thinking they're at Stevenage.

That's going to be fixed as I said above. More features can be changed remotely, so control can adjust the stopping pattern and save the driver having to enter new codes or try and use a pretty archaic looking interface to make changes. [Edit; just seen there will be a new screen in the cab - but it will still make more sense for control to make the changes when they're updating the CIS/Darwin etc].

 

[Robski]

The issue is that if a train is going to do an additional stop, it can't be added to the stopping pattern. Therefore it can't announce a short platform. In the case of Knebworth, I doubt any 12 car trains are booked to call - so if a 9xxx train is filling in during disruption, it will probably say the next stop is Stevenage. Then when it stops, the rear four won't release and that will be the first some even know where they are. Likewise, some people will get off thinking they're at Stevenage.

Morning peak Horsham trains are now booked to call at Knebworth (since December 2025), this is not an additional call. All of them are booked 12 coaches.

 

[jon0844]

Morning peak Horsham trains are now booked to call at Knebworth (since December 2025), this is not an additional call. All of them are booked 12 coaches.

They should be stating that the next platform has a short platform then. It should say this quite soon after leaving Stevenage.

 

[Robski]

They should be stating that the next platform has a short platform then. It should say this quite soon after leaving Stevenage.

But it doesn't because the on-board passenger information system is crap... which brings us to the point of this thread!

 

[FOH]

Take a Sevenoaks starter from Blackfriars, hear the "We are now approaching Denmark Hill" and count how many minutes later it actually reaches the station!

 

[Timmyd]

The thing I seem to see too often is every door saying ‘this door will not open at the next station’ which is quite funny for a regular but causes a lot of anxiety for infrequent travellers

 

[jon0844]

I've heard there will be a software update to fix a number of issues, including the screens showing you at the wrong end of the train (i.e. showing everything in reverse) and the error that I have mentioned before where the train mistakenly believes every single door is disabled. Perhaps it will fix the mentioned issues on here too.

I've also seen the new look 'see it, say it...' graphics that go with a change of station posters to use the new designs. I assume these will be appearing nationally? Every other screen remained the same, with the same colour scheme.

 

[bubieyehyeh]

I've seen on more than one train, the PIS saying I was in coach 1 when I was actually in coach 12, but it also knew it wasn't the front, since still showed the page which says you dont need a first class ticket.

 

[jon0844]

I've seen on more than one train, the PIS saying I was in coach 1 when I was actually in coach 12, but it also knew it wasn't the front, since still showed the page which says you dont need a first class ticket.

As I said above, there's a fix coming for that and other issues (like incorrectly marking doors as not opening when they do).