Thameslink, once complete...

[FrozenPoints]

I've come across this PDF which seems rather official documenting the routes and tph from the various destinations linking north and south via St Pancs and Kings Cross.

I've posted it because I've not seen it on here officially before, not in this way.

http://www.eastmidlandstrains.co.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/TLP Route Diagram.pdf

Courtesy of EMT.

 

[A0]

I've come across this PDF which seems rather official documenting the routes and tph from the various destinations linking north and south via St Pancs and Kings Cross.

I've posted it because I've not seen it on here officially before, not in this way.

http://www.eastmidlandstrains.co.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/TLP Route Diagram.pdf

Courtesy of EMT.

I assume there are other services heading to Moorgate and KX which aren't shown on the map - not least because the Hertford loop doesn't feature at all, and WGC & Hatfield appear to have lost their outer suburban services......

 

[swt_passenger]

A quick check suggests it's almost exactly the same as the tabular listing in last year's London and SE RUS, so I'd expect it will be very close to the eventual decision (post consultation etc).

The only significant difference is that it shows 4 tph to/from Caterham - the earlier spec had 2 tph of those running Tattenham Corner to Welwyn GC.

I'm sure there'll still be a another few years worth of random proposals hereabouts though, people do seem keen on the idea of the Sutton/Wimbledon trains running through the core despite all the advance warning that they won't...

 

[Eagle]

I assume there are other services heading to Moorgate and KX which aren't shown on the map - not least because the Hertford loop doesn't feature at all, and WGC & Hatfield appear to have lost their outer suburban services......

And because Cambridge needs rather more than 2tph to London...

 

[causton]

Well yes, the diagram is labelled the Thameslink programme so I presume only services using the core have been included, otherwise passengers for Kings Cross, Moorgate, Hertford etc will be very disappointed!

Looks good - shame I probably won't be in Hertfordshire to see the effects of it :P

 

[Fincra5]

Correct me if I'm wrong but Horsham to Three Bridges and the East Grinstead branch arent DOO cleared

 

[jon0844]

The former GN line has some rather odd stopping patterns on what was the inner-suburban stations. Skip some stops and then call at Brookmans Park and Welham Green!

I am sure there must be some services still planned to go into King's Cross too, even without asking what happened to the Hertford Loop and Northern City Lines!

I am really not looking forward to how delays many, many miles away could cause chaos here - and not forgetting that train that have been losing time will cause problems on the ECML at Welwyn.. which will have other delays that impact the other operators.

With a lot of trains crossing over to St Pancras then surely that creates another bottleneck outside King's Cross when trains are moving over?

 

[Bungle73]

How are the trains getting from Finsbury Park to the low-level platforms at St. Pancras?

 

[Eagle]

How are the trains getting from Finsbury Park to the low-level platforms at St. Pancras?

Via a tunnel that was dug a while ago but AFAIK hasn't had track laid yet. (Think it might be different to the old one from York Road to the Widened Lines, but I'm not sure.)

 

[Bungle73]

Via a tunnel that was dug a while ago but AFAIK hasn't had track laid yet. (Think it might be different to the old one from York Road to the Widened Lines, but I'm not sure.)

Ah.

 

[Eagle]

They were preemptively dug as part of the works for HS1 to St Pancras.

 

[jon0844]

Everything is there, bar the track (and wires). But to get on and off the ECML, you will have to cross tracks that will presumably cause issues (well, delays) when things go tits up in the core.

I am not saying things will go wrong often, but once they do then all bets will be off! As has been stated before, if the tube goes wrong - you can usually just get the next train that comes in, or wait for the one behind, when things get going again.

St Pancras and the other stations in the core will have a complete mix of services (to loads of destinations in every direction it seems) so it won't be as simple as doing that for a lot of people - so expect crowded platforms and loads of confusion.

Again, I'll stress that it may not go wrong often, but I really do not want to be anywhere near London when it DOES happen!

 

[Eagle]

St Pancras and the other stations in the core will have a complete mix of services (to loads of destinations in every direction it seems) so it won't be as simple as doing that for a lot of people - so expect crowded platforms and loads of confusion.

Makes Crossrail seem simplistic, doesn't it?

 

[Class377/5]

Everything is there, bar the track (and wires). But to get on and off the ECML, you will have to cross tracks that will presumably cause issues (well, delays) when things go tits up in the core.

I am not saying things will go wrong often, but once they do then all bets will be off! As has been stated before, if the tube goes wrong - you can usually just get the next train that comes in, or wait for the one behind, when things get going again.

St Pancras and the other stations in the core will have a complete mix of services (to loads of destinations in every direction it seems) so it won't be as simple as doing that for a lot of people - so expect crowded platforms and loads of confusion.

Again, I'll stress that it may not go wrong often, but I really do not want to be anywhere near London when it DOES happen!

It's a flat junction on the GN side but only to the slows so it's not that bad. As its so close to Kings Cross trains won't actually be going that fact.

The junctions at St Pancras have now been put in and work on putting track, signalling and OHLE is due to start in 2014.

As for the map, well it seems to have been made by EMT by the address. Currently the future path of service is thought to be this, but not guarantees it will be.

Tho on a minor point this not not a future Thameslink franchise map at all. It's a future Thameslink map based on services through the Core. The future Thameslink franchise is going to include a lot more routes come four years time. This is only one lot of three types of routes it will be running. The other two with be the rest of Southern and the GN. Hell you could add a fourth with South London Metro as well.

 

[Barn]

Is Brighton just getting a single stopping service?

 

[cle]

If it was a bit clearer, we might be able to see a bit more re: stopping patterns - but those won't be finalised.

You can see the fast services to Maidstone East which are supposed to cover loss of SLL at Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye. There is also a mysterious service to Bellingham at 2tph which will boost that line.

Brighton services will probably be the mix between semi-fast and slow as per today. I'd like a couple actually fast - EC - LGW - Brighton but no paths I guess.

Didn't realise anything would be going down the SEML from London Bridge to Orpington.

Wonder if the 2 Caterham patterns are a mistake and one should be Tattenham. Then again, maybe the turn around doesn't fit as it's a longer branch.

New Cross Gate seems to have 4 fast trains per hour.

I suspect it'll change a fair bit. I'd be keen to know how many fast trains will be stopping at West Hampstead.

 

[swt_passenger]

I'll post the table from the London and SE RUS again (attached below).

It includes a column showing whether a particular route is semifast or stopping, note that this is often different north and south of the core. I don't think any services are what you would call fast.

As an example the Brighton service shows 4 tph semifast south of London, but 2 tph of those are stopping north of London.

I too think the loss of Tattenham Corner may be a misprint - the implication of leaving it off is that one of those two intermediate destinations loses its Victoria service, and the other loses its London Bridge.

The Bellingham service isn't really 'mysterious' - it has been known about for around 6 months...

 

[telstarbox]

I had no idea there would be through services from Ashford and Tonbridge to north of London - fantastic

 

[Eagle]

I had no idea there would be through services from Ashford and Tonbridge to north of London - fantastic

Ashford already has 1tpd to and from Bedford.

 

[Class377/5]

Ashford already has 1tpd to and from Bedford.

1.5tpd via Maidstone (2x northbound and 1x southbound) with the new proposed to be via Tonbridge so proper fast compared to today's all stations south of Bromley South.

 

[brad465]

And because Cambridge needs rather more than 2tph to London...

Definately. I hope they are also keeping the Cambridge Cruiser, unless they have only shown trains through St Pancras deliberately, where Kings Cross trains are not shown, with the crusier serving this terminus still.

 

[Eagle]

... unless they have only shown trains through St Pancras deliberately, where Kings Cross trains are not shown, with the crusier serving this terminus still.

Yes, this map only shows trains through the Snow Hill tunnel and nothing else.

 

[Nym]

OK, whenever someone says Cambridge Cruiser I keep thinking of a certain doctor...

Also, it doesn't include the GN or PBO / Cambridge Fasts, this is only services using Thameslink, biased toward MML services thanks to StP having much less domestic platform space than the cross and moorgate.

 

[Drsatan]

Wouldn't be there a case for running the Cambridge to Three Bridges service to Reigate instead and adding stops at Earlswood, Horley and Salford to the St Albans to Bellingham service?

 

[mister-sparky]

Wouldn't be there a case for running the Cambridge to Three Bridges service to Reigate instead and adding stops at Earlswood, Horley and Salford to the St Albans to Bellingham service?

no because bellingham and the other 3 are on completely different lines miles and miles apart...

 

[cle]

I did wonder about the Reigate service, which is paired with the Tonbridge in paths.

Both would provide new towns with services through the core - Reigate obviously but also Edenbridge etc... and already goes to London Bridge so no Victoria displacement.

 

[BRX]

Is it now decided that the Sutton/Wimbledon loop trains will terminate at Blackfriars? And is the plan that they will remain at the same frequency as now?

(And when will we get our late night/weekend services back!?)

 

[HH]

(And when will we get our late night/weekend services back!?)

Due in May.

 

[swt_passenger]

Is it now decided that the Sutton/Wimbledon loop trains will terminate at Blackfriars? And is the plan that they will remain at the same frequency as now?

Blackfriars terminators are almost certain, there is far too much written evidence that all but confirms it. The whole point of the east/west track switch at Blackfriars was to run the services via Herne Hill into the bays - this has been explicitly stated in every publication as far back as the TWA Order. The sooner someone in authority has the balls to announce it perhaps all the debate will stop...

Frequency wise, an option in the South London RUS considers the frequency could be doubled, with 4 tph running each way between Blackfriars bays and London Bridge. Other service patterns are possible though.

 

[cle]

Blackfriars bays and London Bridge?

Wouldn't that cause a conflict on through services?