Thameslink on the WCML

[YourMum666]

Why can’t the west london line be converted to thameslink, and hourly brighton/horsham services run to milton keynes? genuinely curious

 

[The Planner]

Why can’t the west london line be converted to thameslink, and hourly brighton/horsham services run to milton keynes? genuinely curious

Its not a case of conversion, it is just who runs the trains.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

If it’s half-hourly, from East Croydon to Watford, and using the 377/2 fleet alone (15 of them, so 7 x 8 car and a spare) worked between Croydon and Watford, branded up as Thameslink, I actually would go for that. Southern operating to Watford doesn’t seem right, but calling it “Thameslink” and having it on the same map actually makes a bit more sense.

And you wouldn’t have to do owt with the crew - it’s all the same company anyway.

 

[zwk500]

Why can’t the west london line be converted to thameslink, and hourly brighton/horsham services run to milton keynes? genuinely curious

The issue with longer-distance services is that the paths between Clapham Junction and East Croydon are trapped into an all-station path, which means the journey times would be completely impractical to come from outside Greater London. Switching between fasts and slows at Balham requires slowing down for the slow crossovers and having gaps on 3 lines of 4 align. This is incredibly difficult to achieve when you also have to line up the crossing moves at Clapham Junction and Wembley.
Running the East Croydon/Clapham Jn to Watford service as Thameslink would be possible, although I'm not sure what the benefits would really be as the whole point of Thameslink is that it gets people into the central city, whereas the point of the West London Line is that it allows people to avoid that area.

 

[Peter0124]

Wishful thinking here, and not going to happen. But wouldn't it be cool if tunnels were drilled from St Pancras Low Level to just outside Primrose Hill to connect with the WCML? Then you could run those services through the 'core'.

 

[30907]

Why can’t the west london line be converted to thameslink,

Because Thameslink is known to most people as a service that runs through Central London (via City Thameslink etc) and labelling a completely different route as Thameslink would just confuse (the only common station is East Croydon).

and hourly brighton/horsham run to milton keynes?

If you divert the existing services, you then have gaps in the Thameslink timetable that you have to fill; if you mean adding additional trains to the timetable - essentially there's no room for them.
BTW they only run to Watford now, bar a couple.

PS Arguably the Overground brand would make more sense if you wanted to rejig the service entirely, but as it operates out of Selhurst that's not easy to arrange.

 

[zwk500]

PS Arguably the Overground brand would make more sense if you wanted to rejig the service entirely, but as it operates out of Selhurst that's not easy to arrange.

It could easily be Overground branded and just operated by GTR as a separate concession to TfL.

 

[A0]

Looking at the title, for a horrible moment I thought this was going to be another thread on reopening the old Northampton - Bedford line <shudders>

 

[PGAT]

If it’s half-hourly, from East Croydon to Watford, and using the 377/2 fleet alone (15 of them, so 7 x 8 car and a spare) worked between Croydon and Watford, branded up as Thameslink, I actually would go for that. Southern operating to Watford doesn’t seem right, but calling it “Thameslink” and having it on the same map actually makes a bit more sense.

And you wouldn’t have to do owt with the crew - it’s all the same company anyway.

But what does that actually achieve?

 

[zwk500]

And you wouldn’t have to do owt with the crew - it’s all the same company anyway.

The Crew and Unit diagrams, etc are split by the operating brands.

 

[NorthKent1989]

The Croydon to Watford route, while it does cross the Thames, shouldn’t be branded Thameslink, all Thameslink services run via the core stations of Blackfriars, City, Farringdon and St. Pancras Intl, and the Cross London services operated by Southern deviates from this main route by quite a far margin.

It could however be branded as Thameslink 2 but even then I don’t think that would work

 

[PGAT]

3 things:

1) Thameslink 2 is the name of a different proposal (Lewes-Uckfield-East Croydon-Lewisham-Stratford)

2) Would be a pretty lacklustre connection if you only had half hourly trains, compared to the 20tph+ on the current core

3) What is the point???

Also i’m pretty sure Brighton-Milton Keynes (and beyond) existed in the past, but was withdrawn due to unprofitably, inefficiency, conflicting movements and capacity issues. There’s no reason it would work now.

 

[Peter0124]

The Croydon to Watford route, while it does cross the Thames, shouldn’t be branded Thameslink, all Thameslink services run via the core stations of Blackfriars, City, Farringdon and St. Pancras Intl, and the Cross London services operated by Southern deviates from this main route by quite a far margin.

It could however be branded as Thameslink 2 but even then I don’t think that would work

Aren't there some Thameslink services that terminate at Kings Cross

 

[PGAT]

Aren't there some Thameslink services that terminate at Kings Cross

There's 2tph from Cambridge & Letchworth that terminate at Kings Cross. They were provisioned to be for the Maidstone East and Ashford routes but that's not happening.

 

[infobleep]

There's 2tph from Cambridge & Letchworth that terminate at Kings Cross. They were provisioned to be for the Maidstone East and Ashford routes but that's not happening.

In the sport of speculation, perhaps they could be renamed Greater Northern, given they dont run through the core or even over the Thames.

 

[zwk500]

1) Thameslink 2 is the name of a different proposal (Lewes-Uckfield-East Croydon-Lewisham-Stratford)

Hasn't that been (rather ambitiously) named BML2. Presumably much to the confusion of the Bournemouth P-way team, who thought they were already looking after line BML2. It's also somewhat generous to call it a proposal, when it's a report that gets rehashed in one form or another every 10 years or so, and has been since before I've been alive.

 

[D365]

Why can’t the west london line be converted to thameslink, and hourly brighton/horsham services run to milton keynes? genuinely curious

Why? Same GTR.

 

[adamedwards]

In the sport of speculation, perhaps they could be renamed Greater Northern, given they dont run through the core or even over the Thames.

From the passenger point of view, the units all are labelled Thameslink, so you add confusion. My hope is we will actually see the day when they run through as planned.

 

[Magdalia]

Aren't there some Thameslink services that terminate at Kings Cross

There's 2tph from Cambridge & Letchworth that terminate at Kings Cross. They were provisioned to be for the Maidstone East and Ashford routes but that's not happening.

In the sport of speculation, perhaps they could be renamed Greater Northern, given they dont run through the core or even over the Thames.

That's what will be happening. Real Time Trains shows the Kings Cross-Cambridge stoppers as GN not TL from the May timetable change.

 

[Haywain]

Wishful thinking here, and not going to happen. But wouldn't it be cool if tunnels were drilled from St Pancras Low Level to just outside Primrose Hill to connect with the WCML? Then you could run those services through the 'core'.

No, because there isn't sufficient capacity to run additional trains through the core.

 

[SargeNpton]

Why can’t the west london line be converted to thameslink, and hourly brighton/horsham services run to milton keynes? genuinely curious

There used to be regular Brighton-Milton Keynes (and on to Northampton/Rugby) services in the past. That they are now curtailed to be East Croydon-Watford Junction perhaps gives you an idea of either the operating constraints or the commercial success of your proposal.

Putting Thameslink branding on them though makes no sense.

 

[Benjaminmorgan]

So no more class 700s in Cambridge when the stoppers get transferred to Great northern

 

[HST43257]

So no more class 700s in Cambridge when the stoppers get transferred to Great northern

The semifasts?

 

[Magdalia]

So no more class 700s in Cambridge when the stoppers get transferred to Great northern

Cambridge-Brighton will still be class 700s.

 

[A0]

So no more class 700s in Cambridge when the stoppers get transferred to Great northern

Not sure how you reach that conclusion ?

They could still be operated with the 700s and Thameslink written on the side of them. And I'm not sure there are enough other units to change the 700s for something else in any case.

 

[infobleep]

From the passenger point of view, the units all are labelled Thameslink, so you add confusion. My hope is we will actually see the day when they run through as planned.

Well given Govia Thameslink Railway run differently branded trains on other branded services, it would just be a continuation of that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Mar 2023 ==

That's what will be happening. Real Time Trains shows the Kings Cross-Cambridge stoppers as GN not TL from the May timetable change.

That makes sense.

 

[cle]

Watford-Croydon on LO branding makes way more sense - and Overground is a better known brand within London. With a colour attached to it - nearly Tube-like in the zeitgeist. An even 2tph service all week between those stations (WJ-East Croydon) would see a better uptick in passengers. If it was tricky to path/terminate - curtail at Clapham and give the paths up to new Victoria/Norbury route services.

 

[GN Boy]

So no more class 700s in Cambridge when the stoppers get transferred to Great northern

I’m led to believe that some 8 car 700s will still run to/from Cambridge.

 

[PGAT]

Watford-Croydon on LO branding makes way more sense - and Overground is a better known brand within London. With a colour attached to it - nearly Tube-like in the zeitgeist. An even 2tph service all week between those stations (WJ-East Croydon) would see a better uptick in passengers. If it was tricky to path/terminate - curtail at Clapham and give the paths up to new Victoria/Norbury route services.

This thread is for you: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-junction-service-instead-of-southern.242427/