Thameslink not accepting American Express cards

[KT550]

I bought a ticket at a Thameslink ticket office today and after having contactless and chip & PIN purchase denied by the card reader, was told that Amex cards were not accepted.

Other parts of GTR (e.g. Southern) have accepted Amex this week and I was under the impression all TOCs accepted Amex as payment.

Has anyone else noticed this?

 

[AlbertBeale]

I bought a ticket at a Thameslink ticket office today and after having contactless and chip & PIN purchase denied by the card reader, was told that Amex cards were not accepted.

Other parts of GTR (e.g. Southern) have accepted Amex this week and I was under the impression all TOCs accepted Amex as payment.

Has anyone else noticed this?

There was a period when some ticket machines at Waterloo accepted any card, including Amex, but others spat out Amex. But I've never had an Amex card refused at any railway ticket office anywhere in the country - though admittedly that only applies to those I've tried at the time I've tried them, which is far from a universal survey! I've bought tickets at Blackfriars (presumably therefore a Thameslink ticket office?) a few times post-lockdown, and (without checking back on my records) I'm pretty sure that one or more of the transactions was paid for by Amex card.

 

[AngusH]

National Rail definitely includes AMEX in its list of cards:

Credit & Debit Cards
All National Rail train companies accept the major credit and debit cards such as Visa, MasterCard, Maestro and Amex.

from https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/45185.aspx


So it should be accepted.

But that means nothing if it isn't accepted in practice.
I don't imagine pointing at the website will do any good.

 

[Harpers Tate]

"In that case, although I am entirely willing and able to pay the correct fare in advance of my journey, I am unable to do so and therefore require permission to travel and pay my fare at the next available opportunity, please".

 

[LowLevel]

"In that case, although I am entirely willing and able to pay the correct fare in advance of my journey, I am unable to do so and therefore require permission to travel and pay my fare at the next available opportunity, please".

The difficulty of course comes in proving that the issue is with the retailer and not that the card is being declined by the bank, otherwise of course anyone could just present a duff card and insist on travel. Had the clerk refused to allow the card to be used that would be a different matter but presumably the reader had simply declined it. On the readers I use it is sometimes possible to discern when a card declining is a reader issue vs the bank declining the transaction but it's not always obvious.

I have however never known the railway to decline Amex so I can only assume there was some sort of issue, although we don't accept them for contactless on board, they'll only work with chip and pin.

 

[Wallsendmag]

We stopped accepting Amex cards when we were GNER it was a tactic to gain a lower commison rate from them. Worked quite well as I seem to remember.

 

[yorkie]

National Rail definitely includes AMEX in its list of cards:



from https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/45185.aspx


So it should be accepted.

But that means nothing if it isn't accepted in practice.
I don't imagine pointing at the website will do any good.

A valid payment method has to be accepted. If the TOC is unable to accept a valid payment method, it becomes the TOC's problem. Travel cannot be denied for this reason.

If TOCs no longer wish to accept American Express, they would need to remove it from the list of valid payment methods.

 

[Wallsendmag]

A valid payment method has to be accepted. If the TOC is unable to accept a valid payment method, it becomes the TOC's problem. Travel cannot be denied for this reason.

If TOCs no longer wish to accept American Express, they would need to remove it from the list of valid payment methods.

Without seeing the response from the authorisation request theres no way to tell if it was a valid payment method. I know that there was fairly recently a problem with Amex and contactless payments maybe the person was getting confused with that?

 

[AlterEgo]

"In that case, although I am entirely willing and able to pay the correct fare in advance of my journey, I am unable to do so and therefore require permission to travel and pay my fare at the next available opportunity, please".

"I have an Amex card and no other means to pay". Yeah right!

 

[AM9]

"I have an Amex card and no other means to pay". Yeah right!

A customer could be maxed out on another card, or have inadequate balance in a Debit card account. That's none of the TOC's business, NRE clearly states: "All National Rail train companies accept the major credit and debit cards such as Visa, MasterCard, Maestro and Amex." and NRE is the customer-facing website of the Rail Delivery Group which claims that "All the passenger and freight rail companies are members of the RDG", which includes GTR, however much they might try to make their own rules up. Also, Thameslink on their own website state: "When you book your tickets online, you can pay by credit card, debit card, eVoucher, PayPal, Visa CheckOut, or Amazon Pay." - although Amex is technically a Charge Card, claiming that the public should know that and not see it as a credit card would certainly fail the 'man on the Clapham omnibus' test.

 

[AlterEgo]

A customer could be maxed out on another card, or have inadequate balance in a Debit card account. That's none of the TOC's business, NRE clearly states: "All National Rail train companies accept the major credit and debit cards such as Visa, MasterCard, Maestro and Amex." and NRE is the customer-facing website of the Rail Delivery Group which claims that "All the passenger and freight rail companies are members of the RDG", which includes GTR, however much they might try to make their own rules up. Also, Thameslink on their own website state: "When you book your tickets online, you can pay by credit card, debit card, eVoucher, PayPal, Visa CheckOut, or Amazon Pay." - although Amex is technically a Charge Card, claiming that the public should know that and not see it as a credit card would certainly fail the 'man on the Clapham omnibus' test.

I think the man on the Clapham Omnibus would consider someone who claimed he had no means to pay on his day out other than an Amex charge card to be laughable, but there you go.

 

[AM9]

I think the man on the Clapham Omnibus would consider someone who claimed he had no means to pay on his day out other than an Amex charge card to be laughable, but there you go.

Maybe not a bizarre as you might think. In my working days when every fellow employee had an Amex account for expenses, although outside the normal salary range for travelling on company business, there were probably occasions where a random refusal to accept any particular approved payment method might have prevented the person presenting it from travelling. In addition, an employee might be given a hard time using their own card as employers that use them get a whole accounting package from Amex that is integrated into their business process.
For the record, I have no problem if any retailer refuses to accept any particular payment method, but it is unacceptable to do so on a whim once they have declared that method as acceptable.

 

[Gonzoiku]

Amex is technically a Charge Card,

Certain cards issued by Amex are indeed charge cards, but certainly not all of them. I have had an Amex-issued credit card in my pocket for the past 20 years!

GZ

 

[AM9]

Certain cards issued by Amex are indeed charge cards, but certainly not all of them. I have had an Amex-issued credit card in my pocket for the past 20 years!

GZ

But to the payee, there is no difference in the transaction.

 

[Hadders]

I think the man on the Clapham Omnibus would consider someone who claimed he had no means to pay on his day out other than an Amex charge card to be laughable, but there you go.

That's immaterial. The passenger can choose any payment method accepted and Amex is an accepted payment method.

It's no different to someone wishing to pay by cash at a station that only has a card only TVM. They can pay in cash at the first available opportunity, they are not required to use a card to purchase a ticket from the TVM.

 

[AlterEgo]

That's immaterial. The passenger can choose any payment method accepted and Amex is an accepted payment method.

It's no different to someone wishing to pay by cash at a station that only has a card only TVM. They can pay in cash at the first available opportunity, they are not required to use a card to purchase a ticket from the TVM.

So we're back to people carrying £50 of cash but also a single rail travel voucher for fifty pence, then. This is the sort of deliberately obtuse and tiring behaviour which gives some enthusiasts a bad name.

 

[nickswift99]

So we're back to people carrying £50 of cash but also a single rail travel voucher for fifty pence, then. This is the sort of deliberately obtuse and tiring behaviour which gives some enthusiasts a bad name.

To which the solution is to no longer issue RTVs but give the customer a refund using their initial method of payment.

However, I suspect the loss due to the method you describe above is lower than the number of RTVs that are never used.

 

[yorkie]

I am not sure a train company could force someone to use a personal card or their own cash when they want to use Amex to put the ticket on their company account. If the rail industry sees this as a loophole and doesn't want to accept Amex, they need to remove it from the list of valid payment methods.

As for RTVs, again if TOCS find them to be too much of a faff, they could choose not to issue them.

 

[AlterEgo]

To which the solution is to no longer issue RTVs but give the customer a refund using their initial method of payment.

However, I suspect the loss due to the method you describe above is lower than the number of RTVs that are never used.

This isn’t the thrust of my argument. This forum likes to think of itself as very pro-passenger and the vanguard of passenger rights on the railway. And that’s a very noble aim; the railway tends towards customer unfriendliness (look at the latest posts in the Disputes section!!).

I just think it’s important to pick battles carefully and understand the optics of them.

 

[[.n]]

"I have an Amex card and no other means to pay". Yeah right!

Yes used to be me - a lot of the time towards the end of the month, I had "spare credit" on my Amex, but no other / not sufficient funds available in my bank account / other cards

 

[Hadders]

So we're back to people carrying £50 of cash but also a single rail travel voucher for fifty pence, then. This is the sort of deliberately obtuse and tiring behaviour which gives some enthusiasts a bad name.

I carry a credit card issued to me as an individual person. It is a corporate credit card billed to my employer for business expenses. I am unable to use it for personal spending and to do so would see me swiftly removed from my job. There is absolutely no way you can tell this is a corporate credit card. Are you saying I must use that card is all I have on me is £50 cash and the corporate credit card.

 

[AlterEgo]

I carry a credit card issued to me as an individual person. It is a corporate credit card billed to my employer for business expenses. I am unable to use it for personal spending and to do so would see me swiftly removed from my job. There is absolutely no way you can tell this is a corporate credit card. Are you saying I must use that card is all I have on me is £50 cash and the corporate credit card.

No, you use the £50 cash of course.

You know exactly the behaviour I’m bringing to light. There’s a reason National Transport Tokens aren’t a payment method any more too.

 

[Gonzoiku]

You know exactly the behaviour I’m bringing to light.

I think I know (open to correction, as always!) but isn't there an underlying issue? The railway is able to deploy a panoply of regulations to protect itself against travellers who are reluctant to pay for their travel. Should we not have the right to require the railway to play by its own rules in circumstances where the railway prefers no to do so?

But National Transport Tokens??

GZ

 

[AlterEgo]

I think I know (open to correction, as always!) but isn't there an underlying issue? The railway is able to deploy a panoply of regulations to protect itself against travellers who are reluctant to pay for their travel. Should we not have the right to require the railway to play by its own rules in circumstances where the railway prefers no to do so?

But National Transport Tokens??

GZ

Yes, you do have the individual right to avail yourself of all the loopholes and grifts available; the railway is often not customer friendly and does indeed deploy a “panoply of regulations” against travellers (which include criminal law too).

However, if you willingly enter the “game” and play them at it for your benefit, I think you lose the right to complain when the rules don’t suit you.

 

[yorkie]

if you willingly enter the “game” and play them at it for your benefit, I think you lose the right to complain when the rules don’t suit you.

this is exactly what (some) train companies do!

 

[AM9]

Yes, you do have the individual right to avail yourself of all the loopholes and grifts available; the railway is often not customer friendly and does indeed deploy a “panoply of regulations” against travellers (which include criminal law too).

However, if you willingly enter the “game” and play them at it for your benefit, I think you lose the right to complain when the rules don’t suit you.

I think that although this thread was started by a person with above average interest in the railway, exactly the same thing could have happened to any passenger walking off the street. If I was standing in a queue and the person in front of me paid for their ticket using a credit card, I wouldn't expect my Amex, (if i had one) to be refused. Even if I could pay by other means I would seek to clarify whether such refusal was the norm, and probably check in the main public interface with the railway, i.e. NRE. TOCs are continually referring passengers to that website when they don't want to spell out punitive rules etc. themselves.
So your comment "This is the sort of deliberately obtuse and tiring behaviour which gives some enthusiasts a bad name." is both insulting to anyone who might complain about the railway making things up and not sticking to its own rules and quite irrelevant to the TOCs behaviour in this case.
As I and many others have already made this point, if the TOC doesn't want to accept Amex (and I do know why they might not): 1) get on to RDG and ask them to make an exception for that TOC and 2) change their own website. It is unacceptable for a company to publish one thing in writing and allow staff to abuse their position of power over a passenger and modify that rulle to the passenger's possible disadvantage.

 

[AlterEgo]

I think that although this thread was started by a person with above average interest in the railway, exactly the same thing could have happened to any passenger walking off the street. If I was standing in a queue and the person in front of me paid for their ticket using a credit card, I wouldn't expect my Amex, (if i had one) to be refused.

If I’m entering a business where I don’t know if it accepts Amex or not, and watch someone pay by card in front of me, then…no…I don’t take this as some sort of guarantee they accept Amex.

Even if I could pay by other means I would seek to clarify whether such refusal was the norm, and probably check in the main public interface with the railway, i.e. NRE.

*You* would. Almost everyone who carries Amex know it is more often refused than accepted. Almost everyone who goes to a business that then declines Amex then shrugs and pays using cash or another payment method.

So your comment "This is the sort of deliberately obtuse and tiring behaviour which gives some enthusiasts a bad name." is both insulting to anyone who might complain about the railway making things up and not sticking to its own rules and quite irrelevant to the TOCs behaviour in this case.

Balderdash: my comment specifically referred to a suggestion that the passenger has no obligation, nor even a moral duty, to pay for their ticket using *another valid payment method they have on them.*

As I and many others have already made this point, if the TOC doesn't want to accept Amex (and I do know why they might not): 1) get on to RDG and ask them to make an exception for that TOC and 2) change their own website. It is unacceptable for a company to publish one thing in writing and allow staff to abuse their position of power over a passenger and modify that rulle to the passenger's possible disadvantage.

It’s not the passenger’s disadvantage though, as was pointed out earlier by a poster who suggested such a refusal actually puts them in a position where not having to pay for their ticket before departure, or, in practice, at all, becomes more likely.

 

[KT550]

Thanks to all for their interesting observations.
Whilst small retailers may choose not to accept Amex, large travel concerns like GTR are able to negotiate fees in line with other cards.
Indeed, Amex would be keen to have their cards accepted at such organisations.

I've emailed Thameslink and will post their reply when received.

 

[Gonzoiku]

If I’m entering a business where I don’t know if it accepts Amex or not, and watch someone pay by card in front of me, then…no…I don’t take this as some sort of guarantee they accept Amex.

*You* would. Almost everyone who carries Amex know it is more often refused than accepted. Almost everyone who goes to a business that then declines Amex then shrugs and pays using cash or another payment method.


Balderdash: my comment specifically referred to a suggestion that the passenger has no obligation, nor even a moral duty, to pay for their ticket using *another valid payment method they have on them.*

It’s not the passenger’s disadvantage though, as was pointed out earlier by a poster who suggested such a refusal actually puts them in a position where not having to pay for their ticket before departure, or, in practice, at all, becomes more likely.

I now realise, AlterEgo, that you are applying an attitude test to the scenario. Which is perfectly fine, and welcomed. In that spirit, can I offer a "mitigation". I keep the Amex charge card separately from the rest of the wallet, and it is entirely possible, aged as I am, that I might forget my wallet, credit and debit cards, and cash, but still have the Amex card. I would not be without an alternative to the Amex card, I just have to go to the nearest cash machine. But there is a price to pay of 3%, with interest running at (it seems) 42% APR.

American Express® - Unbeatable world-class service

So it isn't exactly "a game", and would be to the [intending] passenger's disadvantage for the Amex card to be declined.

GZ

 

[Ken H]

The retailer has no way of knowing why a card is declined. Its a binary thing. yes or no.

Amex are a right pain to work with as a retailer. They change stuff without notice.
When you use a payment card (not credit card or a debit card, but the sort you get when on expenses) the retailer is supposed to send 'addendum data' - details of the invoice including the items bought and VAT rate - with the claimto the card issuer.. He will know what type of card it is from the first few numbers of the card number. But Amex are unhelpful about telling people who develop software for card processing how to tell if a card is a payment card and needs addendum data. If you get it wrong the transaction is declined.
I wonder if the OP got caught between settings being wrong in the ticket machine software and Amex card numbers.