Thameslink new stock order cancelled?

[bangor-toad]

I was listening to Radio 4 at lunchtime and caught the end of a report about the Thameslink project.

It said that DfT have confirmed they've cancelled the order for new stock, that the 319s and 377s will stay and there's no cascade of units to other areas. Apparently it's because there is/was less than expected growth in the use of the Thameslink services.

I've got no references whatsoever for this other than what I heard. A quick search hasn't brought anything up yet. Can anyone verify this?

Cheers,
Jason

 

[northwichcat]

The 'other areas' that the cascade is supposed to go to are seeing growth well above what the franchise agreements stated (I think 40% in the case of Northern Rail) so the fact of the matter is that new stock needs to be built whether or not it goes to the Thameslink area or not.

 

[DavidBusDriver]

If they cancel the order for the new stock, they may aswell cancel the whole Thameslink infrastructure program to link up the TL and GN routes, as there will be nowhere near enough dual-voltage stock to operate services on the routes when they are joined through the bores at St. Pancras International.

Frankly they should be looking to place a joint order for both Thameslink and Crossrail stock, deliveries to TL first releasing 319's for GWML and Northern Rail electrification schemes, then onto Crossrail for a further cascade of 319's and 317's from the Great Eastern 'Metro' services.

Plenty 313's and 315's to be available for cascade also, and with suitable refurbishment/overhaul could be very useful for other infill services.

Really there are a lot more things need cutting than transport and the infrastructure for it, but the only things politicians care about (and are the typical vote winners) are Health and Education! Whats the point in healthy educated people if we havn't got the infrastructure to get them where they need to be!

 

[northwichcat]

Plenty 313's and 315's to be available for cascade also, and with suitable refurbishment/overhaul could be very useful for other infill services.

How long do you expect the 313s to last? The 507s and 508s with Merseyrail have had a very high standard of refurbishment but they are know suffering from corrison problems and aren't expected to last beyond 2014.

 

[Barn]

I was listening to Radio 4 at lunchtime and caught the end of a report about the Thameslink project.

It said that DfT have confirmed they've cancelled the order for new stock, that the 319s and 377s will stay and there's no cascade of units to other areas. Apparently it's because there is/was less than expected growth in the use of the Thameslink services.

I've got no references whatsoever for this other than what I heard. A quick search hasn't brought anything up yet. Can anyone verify this?

Cheers,
Jason

Presumably this means Southern won't get their 377s 'back'. What would they have used them for?

 

[WatcherZero]

1000 days....You know its the second coming!

You and Yours 28:20, relevant update on the story at 35:00
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00sfj2n/You_and_Yours_27_05_2010/

At the end does confirm IEP, Thameslink stock not infrastructure cancelled and Northern cascade cancelled but not the status of the electrification itself

 

[LE Greys]

If they cancel the order for the new stock, they may aswell cancel the whole Thameslink infrastructure program to link up the TL and GN routes, as there will be nowhere near enough dual-voltage stock to operate services on the routes when they are joined through the bores at St. Pancras International.

Frankly they should be looking to place a joint order for both Thameslink and Crossrail stock, deliveries to TL first releasing 319's for GWML and Northern Rail electrification schemes, then onto Crossrail for a further cascade of 319's and 317's from the Great Eastern 'Metro' services.

Plenty 313's and 315's to be available for cascade also, and with suitable refurbishment/overhaul could be very useful for other infill services.

Really there are a lot more things need cutting than transport and the infrastructure for it, but the only things politicians care about (and are the typical vote winners) are Health and Education! Whats the point in healthy educated people if we havn't got the infrastructure to get them where they need to be!

:-x Exactly, now what the $%&* are they going to use I think they might be able to convert the Networkers to dual voltage (some of them used to run on third rail after all). However, they could have used the new Thameslink stock as a template for new suburban stock to replace 313s, 314s, 315s, 455s, 507s and 508s. The planned TOC should be allowed to spend its own money on new stock, otherwise we are stuffed!

 

[WatcherZero]

I guess our hopes now lie on Franchise renewals between 2011-2014 having large allowances for TOC's to be compensated for buying their own stock or improving their own stations. Either via extensions to cover investment or partial deductions they could make on franchise payments. Really though a radical change in the formula to Toc's keeping 50% or more of revenue above performance targets would motivate them to improve.

 

[NR Bloke]

It's very simple - The BBC have got it wrong - They have confused the HLOS deferrment (50 odd million) with the Thameslink order c. £1 billion

This is not a guess or a theory - it's a fact

 

[WatcherZero]

It's very simple - The BBC have got it wrong - They have confused the HLOS deferrment (50 odd million) with the Thameslink order c. £1 billion

This is not a guess or a theory - it's a fact

Skip to 35m where they read out the statement they got since recording the segment. Guy being interviewed in the first bits from Modern Railways I think.

 

[NR Bloke]

Which is the statement the DfT provided to explain the HLOS deferral. The government don't announce £1 billion of funding cuts via a reactive statement to a single radio programme.

If you don't believe me call the DfT and ask them

 

[Edvid]

The DfT have not made a decision on the new TL fleet yet according to Railnews.

http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/general/2010/05/27-no-decision-on-thameslink-rolling.html

 

[Fincra5]

thing is the Southern 313s can surely only last a few more years, then what are they going to do for stock, whilst FFC have their 377s.

 

[Aictos]

thing is the Southern 313s can surely only last a few more years, then what are they going to do for stock, whilst FFC have their 377s.

Actually FCC as in First Capital Connect!

IF the NXEMUs for the Thameslink and Crossrail have been cancelled and the 319s were here to stay on the Thameslink route, would we still see them refurbished to include air con etc...

Saying that, it would be nice to keep the 377s but they're Southern.

 

[Oswyntail]

Odd though it may seem (and may not be relevant if the BBC have got it wrong), but there could be some sense in going ahead with the infrastructure development even if new stock is not available. Then, when the money becomes available, the whole project does not have to start from scratch. [Of course, i would not put it past the DfT to authorise new stock while canceling the infratructure ]

 

[WatcherZero]

According to Building magazine their looking at £5bn in cuts to Crossrail including shortening trains from 12 to 10 cars to save money on platforms, cutting the spurs to Maidenhead, Canary Wharf and Abbey Wood, cutting one central London station and finally engineering savings elsewhere.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...s-may-be-scrapped-in-pound-5bn-cuts-threat.do

Thats gotta reduce the rolling stock they need to order a tad bit...

 

[Daimler]

According to Building magazine their looking at £5bn in cuts to Crossrail including shortening trains from 12 to 10 cars to save money on platforms, cutting the spurs to Maidenhead, Canary Wharf and Abbey Wood, cutting one central London station and finally engineering savings elsewhere.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...s-may-be-scrapped-in-pound-5bn-cuts-threat.do

Thats gotta reduce the rolling stock they need to order a tad bit...

I don't like the sound of this - if the idea of saving money by shortening prospective platform lengths does go ahead, can't you see a future where it'll be necessary to spend a fortune on extending them - especially underground?

 

[ChrisCooper]

I suppose they could cut down the length of the trains which would save money on stock and also platform lengthening on the GE and GW lines, but still build the new stations to 12 car length. As has been said, the cost saving from making new stations shorter would be nothing compared to the cost of lengthening them in the future. Adding further length to existing surface platforms and legthening the trains though wouldn't be that costly in comparison to doing it like that from the start.
Getting rid of Canary Wharf seems a bit silly though considering the amount of work that has already gone into the new station. Even if they terminate their and not run through to Abbey Wood it would be more sensible.

 

[b0b]

If you cancel the Thameslink train order, then would you cancel the ATO part of the infrastructure through the core? That would save money too.

Or is that already canceled anyway?

 

[EM2]

Fairly sure ATO installation is pretty well advanced. I was talking about it to a contractor about a month back.

 

[jon0844]

I do think that axing TCR or Bond Street on Crossrail (but making it easy to go ahead and build them later when the economy improves) might actually not be a bad thing for the short term.

The Central Line will still have a lot of people removed for Crossrail, so those people who still want to go from east or west to central London will be able to use that, without the same level of congestion.

As for the branches, that's again down to whether they cut them for good or simply postpone.

I think postponing certain aspects can be acceptable, given the circumstances, but doing anything drastic would be a disaster.

 

[swt_passenger]

According to Building magazine their looking at £5bn in cuts to Crossrail including shortening trains from 12 to 10 cars to save money on platforms, cutting the spurs to Maidenhead, Canary Wharf and Abbey Wood, cutting one central London station and finally engineering savings elsewhere.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...s-may-be-scrapped-in-pound-5bn-cuts-threat.do

Thats gotta reduce the rolling stock they need to order a tad bit...

There's a lot of crud in that 'building' article, especially about reducing the length of the trains. Crossrail trains have always been described as 10 car, ie 2 x 5 car EMUs in multiple, - the idea is that the station tunnel bores allow for 12 car in future.

Just like the JLE, if you remember the project to alter the PEDs and add the extra cars...

 

[A60K]

Fairly sure ATO installation is pretty well advanced. I was talking about it to a contractor about a month back.

I didn't think they had done any work 'on the ground' yet on installing ATO on the Thameslink route, only preliminary system speccing - not possibly thinking of the Jubilee line, where the ATO installation work has been regularly closing the line at weekends?

 

[tripleseis]

Cutting out Canary Wharf would be barmy! Jubilee Line needs capacity relief, and there's only so much the DLR can take. I'm sure the business leaders in the Docklands area will fight to keep Canary Wharf. If you're going axe a central station, then the one with the least impact would be Bond Street as TCR is actually better located for the West End (it's closer to the theatres, Covent Garden and close enough for Oxford Street shopping. That part of London seriously needs a face lift.

 

[paul1609]

I'm told that the decision to cut extending Thameslink to the ECML destinations was made nearly a year ago but has still not been released to the public.
Im also told that Southern will have to sub lease 3 x 377/2 to FCC from next year.
Apparently this is causing some panic as the import of the 313s is not proving very sucessfull. Ancient London Suburban Stock doesnt take kindly to the relatively high speeds (on dc) encountered even on the Seaford Services!

 

[Pumbaa]

I'm told that the decision to cut extending Thameslink to the ECML destinations was made nearly a year ago but has still not been released to the public.
Im also told that Southern will have to sub lease 3 x 377/2 to FCC from next year.

You have got to be having a giraffe!! I'm presuming the extra 442s they've taken on to cover Brighton Expresses will enable them to release the /2s without having to bring in 350s like last year?

 

[EM2]

I didn't think they had done any work 'on the ground' yet on installing ATO on the Thameslink route, only preliminary system speccing - not possibly thinking of the Jubilee line, where the ATO installation work has been regularly closing the line at weekends?

Nope. The contractor was at St Pancras and he said 'we're carrying on with the fit of the ATO gear tonight'. Read into that what you will.

 

[swt_passenger]

Im also told that Southern will have to sub lease 3 x 377/2 to FCC from next year.

That was stated a while ago - it was in the new SN franchise ITT.

3 units on weekdays only, formed as a 12 car diagram starting and finishing in Brighton. Required between Dec 2011 and September 2013.

 

[paul1609]

That was stated a while ago - it was in the new SN franchise ITT.

3 units on weekdays only, formed as a 12 car diagram starting and finishing in Brighton. Required between Dec 2011 and September 2013.

Apparently its now Dec 2011 until the end of the franchise.
The real problem is that Southern were supposed to have 5 full refurbished 313 by now wheras there are 2 unrefurbished units in service. Rumour is that there is concern over how suitable the 313s will be for use on the coastway services apparently the noise is quite interesting at 70 mph between Falmer and Lewes.

I understand that there is a real danger that Southern services will have to be cancelled to provide the rolling stock to FCC and that the Southampton/ Bognor to london Bridge services are top of the chopping list.

 

[swt_passenger]

Apparently its now Dec 2011 until the end of the franchise.
The real problem is that Southern were supposed to have 5 full refurbished 313 by now wheras there are 2 unrefurbished units in service. Rumour is that there is concern over how suitable the 313s will be for use on the coastway services apparently the noise is quite interesting at 70 mph between Falmer and Lewes.

I understand that there is a real danger that Southern services will have to be cancelled to provide the rolling stock to FCC and that the Southampton/ Bognor to london Bridge services are top of the chopping list.

I don't quite see the relevance of a shortage of 313s now, to something that is not required for 18 months, to be honest. The shift of more 377s onto Metro services is dependent on platform lengthening in South London as well - that's not due for completion until 2013, and far more likely to be delayed as it's down to Network Rail...