Thameslink line speeds.

[greyman42]

I was travelling from St. Pancras to Gatwick yesterday at around 13:30 and was surprised at the slow line speeds between Blackfriars and East Croyden. It was the same on my return journey. Is this due to the lines simply having low speed limits, or are the trains running through one signal after another at caution due to congestion in this area. I am not familiar with this section of track.

 

[yorkie]

Yes the line via Crystal Palace has very slow speed limits, and these trains do have to fit in with the usual intensive local services too.

 

[wls1]

All because of the thameslink and london bridge works, adds quite some time to the journey!

 

[30907]

The route is pretty low speed anyway - I don't think 60 is possible anywhere in from Norwood Jn (in theory Gypsy Hill-West Norwood is IIRC). On top of that, the service has to be pathed between existing stopping trains and across busy 20mph-restricted junctions. On a quick look at working times, an optimum path would be around 24min for BFR-ECR, but some trains are allowed 30 for pathing.
Roll on 2018!

Yorkie was quicker...

 

[edwin_m]

They go back to their intended route in 2018 - pretty slow between Blackfriars and London Bridge but then quite fast until the inevitable signal stop outside East Croydon.

 

[Bald Rick]

It's pretty much 20-30 from Norwood to Blackfriars all the way except for a short stretch from Elephant & Castle to Loughboro Jn, and around Gypsy Hill.

 

[tsr]

Gipsy Hill.

*Coughs into route knowledge pack*

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Isn't it also the case that they "slip" a path while going that way round in order to avoid having to re-write everything north of Blackfriars and south of Croydon so even if they could run faster they'd just end up being held at either end of the diversion anyway?

 

[Ianno87]

Isn't it also the case that they "slip" a path while going that way round in order to avoid having to re-write everything north of Blackfriars and south of Croydon so even if they could run faster they'd just end up being held at either end of the diversion anyway?

Not quite, the BML timetable was re-jigged in December 2014 so it wasn't quite as bad as falling into a path the full 15 minutes later. This is partly the reason why two of the Bedfords were chopped back to Three Bridges, to avoid the complexity of 4 new slots on the BML Fast Lines 'proper'

The basic running times are somethink like 7 minutes longer in each direction, then there's about 3-5 minutes extra for pathing.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

So... does that mean another complete re-jigging when the direct route re-opens shortly?

 

[Ianno87]

As I understand it, the next full re-jig will come with the full timetable recast in May (including Thameslink services running through to East Grinstead, Horsham etc.).

 

[Bald Rick]

Gipsy Hill.

*Coughs into route knowledge pack*

Potato Potatoe

 

[387star]

Several parts are 15 max such as crystal palace

West Norwood to herne hill is the slowest section. West Norwood to tulse hill is effectively 20

Many junctions are approach controlled or double blocked
Then add the southern services to Beckenham junction

There are about 8 slow speed junctions between Norwood junction and Loughborough junction

 

[MML]

Overheard a fellow passenger yesterday. "why's this train going so slowly ?"
As we left the BML and meandered Northbound via Crystal Palace.

The return to London Bridge can't come soon enough. But perhaps when it is complete, the track layout via Elephant & Castle could be improved to allow higher speeds.

 

[sjoh]

The return to London Bridge can't come soon enough. But perhaps when it is complete, the track layout via Elephant & Castle could be improved to allow higher speeds.

To what benefit really? It's only an inconvenience because these services are non-stop. Everything else stops pretty much everywhere, and I can't think of many places a significantly higher speed would be attainable even if it were possible.

 

[edwin_m]

As they are two-track inner-suburban lines with frequent stations, I imagine the current Thamesline trains via Herne Hill are going as fast as they can before they catch up a stopper in front.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The actual timetabling of the diversions , and the skills of the drivers in keeping the trains rolling along is commendable* - yes , tedious to some extent - but you do get to see some fine Victorian suburbs.

*(not forgetting the signalling staff who are clearly very much on the ball)

Roll on that return to the fast track London Bridge to East Croydon - not too long now .....

 

[greyman42]

The actual timetabling of the diversions , and the skills of the drivers in keeping the trains rolling along is commendable* - yes , tedious to some extent - but you do get to see some fine Victorian suburbs.

*(not forgetting the signalling staff who are clearly very much on the ball)

Roll on that return to the fast track London Bridge to East Croydon - not too long now .....

Yes the Victorian suburbs are very interesting. A bit of a contrast to Elephant and Castle.

 

[cle]

Blackfriars to Loughborough Junction is quite nippy, but yes the rest is basically a stopping, local railway. Arguably they could have added in a stop along the way without messing things up too much, maybe Herne or Tulse Hill.

 

[Ianno87]

Blackfriars to Loughborough Junction is quite nippy, but yes the rest is basically a stopping, local railway. Arguably they could have added in a stop along the way without messing things up too much, maybe Herne or Tulse Hill.

Give them a direct Gatwick/Brighton service, and there'll be uproar when it has to get taken out again! (Having had 3 years to get used to such a convenient service...)

Would suspect the timing of the flat junctions would be too tight anyway - most of the fluff is either around Elephant, or around Norwood.

 

[Bald Rick]

But perhaps when it is complete, the track layout via Elephant & Castle could be improved to allow higher speeds.

If it was possible to improve it, it would have been done before the TL diversions. Indeed one restriction was removed, albeit approach control at Bromley Junction.

Unfortunately there's no escaping the laws of physics. Getting round those corners needs speed restrictions.

 

[ComUtoR]

If it was possible to improve it, it would have been done before the TL diversions. Indeed one restriction was removed, albeit approach control at Bromley Junction.

Remind me. Bromley Junction ?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Blackfriars to Loughborough Junction is quite nippy, but yes the rest is basically a stopping, local railway. Arguably they could have added in a stop along the way without messing things up too much, maybe Herne or Tulse Hill.

Platform lengths, even with the selective door opening, would be an issue. I'm pretty sure a 12 car stopping at Tulse Hill would foul the junctions as well.

 

[Sunset route]

If it was possible to improve it, it would have been done before the TL diversions. Indeed one restriction was removed, albeit approach control at Bromley Junction.

Unfortunately there's no escaping the laws of physics. Getting round those corners needs speed restrictions.

That’s only really Worked once they closed Norwood CM&EE (aka Norwood cable) crossing as when it was in use with the signalling restrictions gone the only way to operate it was defensively ie check every train down just in case they wanted to use the crossing as they forgot to provide the signallers a four signal section look back as so not to replace the protecting signal without giving a COA.

 

[Bald Rick]

Remind me. Bromley Junction ?

745 on the down. Was approach controlled for the route to Norwood, now is a free aspect. Saves about 20 seconds a train.

As Sunset Route says there was then an operational issue related to the Norwood cable crossing, but that has now closed.

 

[30907]

745 on the down. Was approach controlled for the route to Norwood, now is a free aspect. Saves about 20 seconds a train.

As Sunset Route says there was then an operational issue related to the Norwood cable crossing, but that has now closed.

Think he wanted to know where Bromley Junction is - in lay terms, where the spurs to/from Norwood Junction diverge from the Crystal Palace-Beckenham Junction route (which was originally going to Farnborough but made it to Shortlands, which was originally called Bromley, which is how the junction got its name. Is that enough confusion for this morning?).

 

[ChiefPlanner]

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docsummary.php?docID=788

Some historical trivia re Bromley Junction.

 

[ijmad]

Roll on that return to the fast track London Bridge to East Croydon - not too long now .....

Although between Jan and May (when they actually change the timetable) the trains are apparently going to keep their existing timings north of London Bridge, which means they'll sit in the platforms there for around 10 minutes.

 

[ComUtoR]

Cheers. It didn't sound familiar and Bromley is a location I sign so I was checking my route knowledge.

I don't sign Crystal Palace.

Cheers also for the history.

 

[Sunset route]

Cheers. It didn't sound familiar and Bromley is a location I sign so I was checking my route knowledge.

I don't sign Crystal Palace.

Cheers also for the history.

Bromley (up & down) junction(s) from the signallers at VASC & TBASC point of view.