Thameslink - joining the dots

[swt_passenger]

One of the aspects of the Thameslink programme that has been difficult to track down before now has been which station pairs would be newly connected once the planned north and south routes and frequencies were 'joined in the middle, IYSWIM.

My source is Table 5.2 in the newly published London and SE RUS final version. The actual table in the RUS gives more detailed info about routes and stopping patterns, ie fast, semifast or stopping etc

Each station pair I've listed gets 2 tph; except Brighton - Bedford which is
4tph as now:

The 18 tph through London Bridge

Brighton - Bedford 12-car (4 tph)
Three Bridges - Peterborough 12-car
Horsham - Cambridge 12-car
East Grinstead - Bedford 12-car Peak only
Caterham - St Albans 8-car
Tattenham Corner - Welwyn Garden City 8-car
Tunbridge Wells - Bedford 12-car Peak only
Ashford International -Luton 12-car Peak only

6tph via Catford & Elephant and Castle

Maidstone East - Welwyn Garden City 8-car
Sevenoaks - Luton 8-car
Bellingham - St Albans 8-car

 

[Bedpan]

With the Wimbledon loop trains and anything else from the west side of the above terminating at Blackfriars presumably.

All quite sensible but it is a pity that there's not more from the south coast, as Eastbourne and Littlehampton (and Guildford and Kings Lynn) have been shown on the Thameslink Programme website ever since it first came on line, and the Three Bridges and Horsham terminators could easily be extended, subject to sufficient stock being available.

Caterham and Tattenham Corner seem to be sensible choices for the shorter routes though - I was wondering about whether they could alternate these , ie one an hour Caterham - St Albans and one an hour Tattenham Corner to St Albans, but to do that would have to result in irregular time intervals - although I don't suppose that this would cause a problem on the respective branches.

 

[swt_passenger]

... as Eastbourne and Littlehampton (and Guildford and Kings Lynn) have been shown on the Thameslink Programme website ever since it first came on line, and the Three Bridges and Horsham terminators could easily be extended, subject to sufficient stock being available.

That's true, but I believe it was an own goal to put that drawing up in the first place, because a lot of time has passed since Thameslink 2000 was first proposed, and what NR have now published reflects over four years worth of RUSs and various draft RUSs before that, whichg have been fairly consistent in not including all those places you mention.

I firmly believe the Thameslink site should reflect NR's current proposals - to do otherwise is just being lazy really. I have emailed them about this before, and to be fair they eventually cracked and included a few caveats, and the stuff about Wimbledon Loop running to Blackfriars only. Lately they've also included the reasoning why Kings Lynn was dropped - and that's another good reason to alter the maps...

I think the stock might be the key as you suggest - having decided on dedicated fixed formation stock, maybe they were worried about having too many redundant four car Electrostars left over.

 

[Bedpan]

Ah yes, I see that they have added the Kings Lynn bit, although it did seem a bit crazy from a cross London passenger flow perspective to include Kings Lynn rather than Cambridge in the first place.

One thing not mentioned is what use is to be made of the terminator platforms at Blackfriars which are due to come into use shortly. I assume that this will be peak hour Wimbledon loop trains currently routed into London Bridge, but I haven't seen any mention anywhere (although I have probably not been looking in the right place.

I must say that I find the Wimbledon loop quite useful for accessing the SW suburban services at Wimbledon, despite the fact that it is probably quicker to change at London Bridge and Waterloo, but I can't say that deleting Guildford is a hardship bearing the routing via West Croydon.

Seems that from Harpenden, nothing much will change off peak, other than what currently goes to Wimbledon/Sutton will instead be routed to Sevenoaks.

 

[swt_passenger]

Ah yes, I see that they have added the Kings Lynn bit, although it did seem a bit crazy from a cross London passenger flow perspective to include Kings Lynn rather than Cambridge in the first place.

One thing not mentioned is what use is to be made of the terminator platforms at Blackfriars which are due to come into use shortly. I assume that this will be peak hour Wimbledon loop trains currently routed into London Bridge, but I haven't seen any mention anywhere (although I have probably not been looking in the right place.

The final 2018 state is described, I reckon that the '4 tph all day' bit is the Wimbledon/Sutton loop:

...an eight trains per hour peak service into the
Blackfriars bays (a four trains per hour all-day
service via Tulse Hill, a two trains per hour peak
stopping service via Kent House and a two trains
per hour peak service between the Medway
Towns and Blackfriars)

Meanwhile what happens next May when the bays reopen seems very much up in the air as far as I can see. I wonder if any of the joint SE/FCC services will be split again to just run as far as Blackfriars - it will be a shame if the current capacity through the core is not maintained. Or will more SE/SN services run to the bays, with all existing through services carrying on?

I believe there is still a very small number of City T/L terminating/starting trains in the peaks - I expect they'll definitely relocate?

A further point is that the new bays seem to be 12 cars long from the drawings online, so much longer trains could operate than before...

 

[jopsuk]

I'm a Cambridge resident- I'd like to see the Cambridge option die, to be honest

 

[LE Greys]

I take it that the other Cambridge and Peterborough trains will still run into the Cross. Personally, I'd rather see the WGC trains continuing to run into Moorgate, the Tattenham Corner and Maidstone East trains going to Bedford and two Brighton trains going to Cambridge and Peterborough respectively. The suburban platforms at the Cross could then be dedicated to Della-worked services. Extending them to full length is probably impossible.

 

[Fred26]

Della-worked services?

 

[swt_passenger]

Della-worked services?

Adelantes/180s are the terms in normal use...

 

[NSE]

I'm a Cambridge resident- I'd like to see the Cambridge option die, to be honest

Same, I like my trains terminating in Kings Cross. I regularly travel to Croydon/Haywards Heath, and I will continue to use the victoria line and Southern Services. I'm not sure what to make of it tbh, becuase if my train from Cambridge/St. Neots comes into St. Pancras Thameslink platform, I'm faced with a massive walk to the deep level tube lines. It makes my journey longer.
Unless Southern operate the whole Thameslink network, then I'll be happy

 

[LE Greys]

Adelantes/180s are the terms in normal use...

Della is easier to say, also refers to the name Adele. I always preferred 'Coradia' rather than a spurious word meaning 'Progress' in Spanish ('Progress' used to be a Communist slogan in the USSR) so this is a way to avoid having to use it.

 

[thefab444]

Adelantes/180s are the terms in normal use...

LE is the only person on this forum who uses the term "Della", personally I think it sounds stupid but each to their own.

 

[LE Greys]

Same, I like my trains terminating in Kings Cross. I regularly travel to Croydon/Haywards Heath, and I will continue to use the victoria line and Southern Services. I'm not sure what to make of it tbh, becuase if my train from Cambridge/St. Neots comes into St. Pancras Thameslink platform, I'm faced with a massive walk to the deep level tube lines. It makes my journey longer.
Unless Southern operate the whole Thameslink network, then I'll be happy

I'm basically the exact opposite. I'd want every service from Hitchin to run right through, which gives better Underground connections at Farringdon, Blackfriars and London Bridge, allows you to walk from City Thameslink and still provides the Finsbury Park-Highbury-Old Street-Moorgate option with Tube connections at all four. It also makes it easier to get to Waterloo via London Bridge, or Paddington via Farringdon. Then there are the direct links to East Croydon, Gatwick and Three Bridges (and ideally Hayward's Heath/Brighton). We would lose out Piccadilly and Victoria Line services (if you discount Finsbury Park and Highbury) but I reckon there is more to gain than to lose.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

LE is the only person on this forum who uses the term "Della", personally I think it sounds stupid but each to their own.

I'm well-known for being fiercely independent. If I don't like something, I either don't use it or modify it. I believe I've made my views on "Adelante" clear.

 

[radamfi]

Sounds like Three Bridges will get 4 tph via Redhill, which is already the current service level. Which way are they going to send Barnham to Victoria via Horsham trains? If they still go through Redhill that would make 6 tph between Three Bridges, Redhill and East Croydon.

 

[adtrainz]

Could the Barnham to Victoria trains be sent via Epsom and Balham? Although I'm not too sure on the capacity of that line, especially with the Wimbledon loop.

 

[radamfi]

Could the Barnham to Victoria trains be sent via Epsom and Balham? Although I'm not too sure on the capacity of that line, especially with the Wimbledon loop.

That would mean only 2 tpr between Horsham and Three Bridges, unless there were extra Victoria to Horsham via Three Bridges trains.

 

[swt_passenger]

The Sussex RUS explains all this in Fig 4.1 on page 75, which describes the 2016 status - ie post Thameslink KO2 at the date it was written.

There are 8 tph on the slows north of Three Bridges, two from the West Coastway to Victoria, two starting at Horsham to Thameslink, then four starting at Three Bridges, of which two are for Victoria and two are for Thameslink. So does Thameslink replace existing London Bridge services in this context - because sometimes it is difficult to establish exactly which existing SN services are transferred current London Bridge terminators would be the obvious first choice.

I've never found anything yet mentioning specific signalling or track changes needed to make this work, but there are platform lengthening and power upgrades mentioned here and there. However the Gatwick additional fast line platforms should also be done in a few years, and this will presumably improve the overall line capacity by removing GatEx crossing moves?

 

[ushawk]

Dont see how Caterham and Tattenham Cnr should have Thameslink services especially as current Southern services are fairly good. Would be better off sending 1 down to Bognor and 1 down the East Coastway

And diverting the Bognor/Portsmouth/Southampton trains via Sutton would then lose the direct service to Gatwick and connections at Croydon, so it should stay the same.

 

[swt_passenger]

Dont see how Caterham and Tattenham Cnr should have Thameslink services especially as current Southern services are fairly good.

The SN services won't be very good by then though, because they will have been transferred to Thameslink...

In general, none of the 'new' Thameslink services are additional, they are diversions of existing SN or SE services. As I suggested in the earlier post, this often seems to be overlooked.

 

[radamfi]

Table 5.2 in the London & SE RUS gives all day service patterns whereas Fig 4.1 in the Sussex RUS is only concerned with the morning peak, which shows Barnham - Horsham - Victoria trains to continue to avoid Redhill. So it would be interesting to know whether the Barnham - Horsham - Victoria service off peak would continue to go via Redhill.

 

[Skimble19]

I'd rather none of the PBO services went anywhere near the Thameslink route tbh.. sadly it's not my decision. At least there should still be some services that stay on the GN.

 

[ushawk]

The SN services won't be very good by then though, because they will have been transferred to Thameslink...

In general, none of the 'new' Thameslink services are additional, they are diversions of existing SN or SE services. As I suggested in the earlier post, this often seems to be overlooked.

But then they could maybe attach and detach the Tattenham/Caterham trains at Purley 2tph and another 2tph could connect to other trains at Purley (maybe connect to the Horsham trains which could call at Purley/existing ones already).

 

[jon0844]

I'd rather none of the PBO services went anywhere near the Thameslink route tbh.. sadly it's not my decision. At least there should still be some services that stay on the GN.

I too hope we'll keep services terminating at KGX as I have a feeling we're going to see many delays through the central core that will screw up an incredible amount of trains in a very short space of time.

 

[jopsuk]

Although it is suffering a little from "creep", I think the Crossrail concpet of a "super tube line" is rather more robust than the Thameslink concept, which tries to be both outer suburban commuter and inner suburban metro, cramming (in the future) multiple routes into a two-track railway.

 

[tbtc]

Although it is suffering a little from "creep", I think the Crossrail concpet of a "super tube line" is rather more robust than the Thameslink concept, which tries to be both outer suburban commuter and inner suburban metro, cramming (in the future) multiple routes into a two-track railway.

Yeah, a year or two ago I was wanting Crossrail to be this complicated series of services extending to Maidstone/Ipswich and Milton Keynes/ Aylesbury... but I think that the limited scope of the service (initially) makes more sense.

The complicated spread of proposed Thameslink services could create a few nightmares (especially given how tightly some things need to be timed through Welwyn etc).

 

[Minstral25]

Sounds like Three Bridges will get 4 tph via Redhill, which is already the current service level. Which way are they going to send Barnham to Victoria via Horsham trains? If they still go through Redhill that would make 6 tph between Three Bridges, Redhill and East Croydon.

As a Redhill user this sounds very good to me.

4 12-coach trains per hour to London Bridge and then onto Thameslink, hopefully at least two will be fast, just stopping East Croydon and London Bridge.

Plus 2 Arun Valley line trains to Victoria fast and two local services to Victoria, one each hour from Reigate and Tonbridge - currently running to London Bridge but replaced by new Thameslink services.

Sounds like they will need to get a flyover inserted at Stoats Nest at least for the Northbound trains.

 

[jon0844]

The complicated spread of proposed Thameslink services could create a few nightmares (especially given how tightly some things need to be timed through Welwyn etc).

It seems a number of services will terminate at WGC, thus avoiding the viaduct, which perhaps makes sense but will obviously mean people having to change trains.