Thameslink - how naive can I be?

[zwk500]

That quite a sum and obviously its not good use of taxpayers money but one has to question with drivers having the level of training and competence they have to gain a licence whether there is case for a route knowledge "lite" for low speed sections where every signal is equipped with TPWS. ie round to Cannon Street.

Cannon street throat is quite complex, for which drivers will need to know all potential routes, their speeds and the indications, as well as the platforms having various restrictions on stock length.

 

[Bald Rick]

Presumably because you could hypothetically terminate trains from London Bridge in the Blackfriars through platforms, while still using the bays for services from the Holbon lines (ie effectively operating BFR as a traditional four platform dead end terminus, albeit with segregated services)?

Given the size of the project I suppose it does seem a little odd the access to the bays from LB wasn’t included, just for maximum possible flexibility/future proofing, even if never really intended to be used operationally.

Without going into too much detail, the layout at the south of Blackfriars couldn’t physically accommodate the pointwork to allow trains from London Bridge to terminate in the bays and the pointwork necessary to get trains between the core and the western pair of lines to Elephant, and the pointwork necessary for bidi. Given that the latter two are required regularly on a planned basis, whilst the former isn’t...

 

[43066]

That quite a sum and obviously its not good use of taxpayers money but one has to question with drivers having the level of training and competence they have to gain a licence whether there is case for a route knowledge "lite" for low speed sections where every signal is equipped with TPWS. ie round to Cannon Street.

Cannon street throat is quite complex, for which drivers will need to know all potential routes, their speeds and the indications, as well as the platforms having various restrictions on stock length.

Yes “route knowledge lite” would be a bad idea anywhere. Let alone in a complex area with a lot of difficult to interpret signalling, read across risks, potential conflicting moves and steep curves meaning trains can obscure signals. The complexity is such that not all signals in CST throat are fitted with AWS so safety is already degraded. It’s a notorious spot for incidents already - and that’s with drivers signing it properly and often driving into it several times per day.

Sending GTR in there once in a blue moon - not even properly signing it - would be an absolute recipe for disaster. It’s also a solution looking for a problem for the reasons noted upthread.

Without going into too much detail, the layout at the south of Blackfriars couldn’t physically accommodate the pointwork to allow trains from London Bridge to terminate in the bays and the pointwork necessary to get trains between the core and the western pair of lines to Elephant, and the pointwork necessary for bidi. Given that the latter two are required regularly on a planned basis, whilst the former isn’t...

Thanks - great insight.

 

[Mikey C]

Yes “route knowledge lite” would be a bad idea anywhere. Let alone in a complex area with a lot of difficult to interpret signalling, read across risks, potential conflicting moves and steep curves meaning trains can obscure signals. The complexity is such that not all signals in CST throat are fitted with AWS so safety is already degraded. It’s a notorious spot for incidents already - and that’s with drivers signing it properly and often driving into it several times per day.

Sending GTR in there once in a blue moon - not even properly signing it - would be an absolute recipe for disaster. It’s also a solution looking for a problem for the reasons noted upthread.

It's not a solution looking for a problem though, as the current "solution" is cancelling the Rainham TL service completely, even if south of the river there are no issues at all.

Obviously I'm not suggesting such a solution when there is an emergency incident in the core, but rather for engineering works planned months in advance. Especially when the one bright spot for the railway is increased leisure travel at weekends.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

It's not a solution looking for a problem though, as the current "solution" is cancelling the Rainham TL service completely, even if south of the river there are no issues at all.

Obviously I'm not suggesting such a solution when there is an emergency incident in the core, but rather for engineering works planned months in advance. Especially when the one bright spot for the railway is increased leisure travel at weekends.

They don't always bin it off when there is engineering work. On Sundays for example when the core is blocked it generally runs from London bridge Plat's 4/5 to Rainham.

 

[ComUtoR]

The platform staff at Cannon Street would have to be trained on dispatching 700s, and have that competency maintained.

I don't believe that Platform staff have specific competency for each traction type. Not only that, The 700s would most likely dispatch themselves as DOO.

Cannon street throat is quite complex,

Na, barely a day and you can sign it.

their speeds and the indications,

15, then 20.

as well as the platforms having various restrictions on stock length.

All 12.

whether there is case for a route knowledge "lite" for low speed sections where every signal is equipped with TPWS. ie round to Cannon Street.

What would Route Knowledge 'Lite' compose of ? That's very open for interpretation. There is a dedicated thread somewhere for route knowledge but I'd be interested to hear what you consider to be 'Lite'

 

[Horizon22]

It's a two sentence post. The first refering to London Bridge



Coming up from Rainham is the key here. Services from Kent side are an issue because, as mentioned, terminating at London Bridge can cause delays. Cutting across SE services could also cause delays.

I don't really have any issues with the London Bridge/Blackfriars Bays as that isn't what they were designed to do. Potentially an oversight but the design of both stations was to remove the conflicts. Anything flowing from London Bridge goes through the core and anything up from Herne Hill terminates. When terminating in the Blackfriars Bays, you simply walk across the platform to change trains.

Avoiding conflicting moves should be the goal. The diveunder and the London Bridge layout removed the conflicting moves with SE. They are pretty much protected from knock on delays now.

The Sutton services were originally planned to terminate at Blackfriars bays, until the locals kicked up a fuss.

 

[MikeWh]

cancelling the Rainham TL service completely

I might be wrong, but usually the Rainham service runs as far as Dartford, which satisfies the service at Higham and provides connections to London Bridge.

 

[whoosh]

I don't believe that Platform staff have specific competency for each traction type. Not only that, The 700s would most likely dispatch themselves as DOO.

Thameslinks only cleared for P3, 4, 5, & 6 in passenger service.

Can go through 7, 8, and 9 not in service.

Can be dispatched from 10 - 15 in service.

As 7, 8, and 9 haven't been cleared for DOO dispatch (or any kind of dispatch!) after four years, then I wouldnt hold your breath about 1 & 2!

 

[43066]

Na, barely a day and you can sign it.

15, then 20.

All 12.

I can’t agree it isn’t complicated.

Ultimately it’s a seven platform London terminal feeding into two lines, via a reversible and an extremely steep curve, with a siding and a spur towards Charing Cross. There are a lot of traps: leaving on a single yellow and then SPADDing without an AWS warning; reading across and SPADDing the signals on the curve towards London Bridge, I can think of several examples of each over the past five years. Also an example of a serious gapping that crippled the throat for hours during the peak, not to mention the risk of being wrong routed towards Charing Cross from certain platforms. It’s not the hardest terminal station I’ve ever signed, but it’s certainly not the easiest.

In terms of GTR signing it as an occasional diversion, that might have been doable when many of their Kent services were driven by SE metro drivers who signed CST anyway. That was now years ago and it’s a huge knowledge requirement to bring in for GTR drivers who nowadays (AIUI) literally sign just LB and the route to and from the core.

Even if it could be learned in a day - which I would dispute - that would mean sending people from as far afield as Cambridge, Peterborough, Brighton etc. to stand around on LB asking to be let into cabs of networkers, or else watching the usual dreadful (and often wrong) track access videos.

Could it be done? Of course, but I’d question what possible purpose it would serve, which brings us neatly onto…

It's not a solution looking for a problem though, as the current "solution" is cancelling the Rainham TL service completely, even if south of the river there are no issues at all.

As others have pointed out, usually you end up with Rainham Shuttles to and from London Bridge then a simple interchange which, when the core is closed, most weekend leisure travellers will be making anyway. Far more will want the west end, or to continue their journey via the tube, than will want to go to Cannon St, or to Blackfriars for that matter. Both have limited onward connections and, almost uniquely in London, the areas around them remain (relatively) ghost-town like at weekends.

Even if you’ve got no GTR Rainham services along the north Kent line, depending where on the route you live, you’ve got plenty of options: DLR, Crossrail (soon), SE go from Dartford to London four ways. Passengers for London from Medway can take an SE mainliner to Victoria via the Chathams. That’s usually a lot quicker and more pleasant than GTR’s crawl via the north Kent!

 

[westcoaster]

Thameslinks only cleared for P3, 4, 5, & 6 in passenger service.

Can go through 7, 8, and 9 not in service.

Can be dispatched from 10 - 15 in service.

As 7, 8, and 9 haven't been cleared for DOO dispatch (or any kind of dispatch!) after four years, then I wouldnt hold your breath about 1 & 2!

2 is also cleared for turn back moves, and has had the Rainham service group use it.
7,8&9 can be used in service (especially overnight) just not allowed to call there.

 

[jon0844]

5mph speed restriction at Farringdon (northbound) this morning due to a defective rail.

 

[Surreytraveller]

I don't believe that Platform staff have specific competency for each traction type. Not only that, The 700s would most likely dispatch themselves as DOO.



Na, barely a day and you can sign it.



15, then 20.



All 12.



What would Route Knowledge 'Lite' compose of ? That's very open for interpretation. There is a dedicated thread somewhere for route knowledge but I'd be interested to hear what you consider to be 'Lite'

Platform staff do have specific competency, as different traction types require different dispatch processes. Its even been the case that the same traction type has a different dispatch process depending upon the operator

 

[i4n]

What I struggle to understand is why GTR don't use the upload facility on the 700 PIS so they can broadcast an update to passengers through that. If you can upload latest TfL tube line status why can't you send a message say to all trains saying the disruption is due to XXX ?

As a random aside, how do we know it's the latest tube info? They took the time/date off of the display years ago and even then it could be a few days out of date. This is something that really irks me - I work with data in my job and data where you don't know the source/how long ago it was updated is rather meaningless.

 

[Class 466]

Thameslinks only cleared for P3, 4, 5, & 6 in passenger service.

Can go through 7, 8, and 9 not in service.

Can be dispatched from 10 - 15 in service.

As 7, 8, and 9 haven't been cleared for DOO dispatch (or any kind of dispatch!) after four years, then I wouldnt hold your breath about 1 & 2!

Something's changed since May 2019 when I got a 700 up to Blackfriars from Platform 8 at London Bridge. A number of up services ran through 8...

 

[Mikw]

5mph speed restriction at Farringdon (northbound) this morning due to a defective rail.

Is it the botch repair from last week needing fixing again or a new problem?

 

[Mikey C]

I might be wrong, but usually the Rainham service runs as far as Dartford, which satisfies the service at Higham and provides connections to London Bridge.

Which then stuffs the frequency of the Greenwich line, to 2tph which is pathetic for a busy inner London service (and one which won't benefit from Crossrail once you get past Woolwich)

They don't always bin it off when there is engineering work. On Sundays for example when the core is blocked it generally runs from London bridge Plat's 4/5 to Rainham.

I've certainly never seen that on Saturdays though.

 

[Surreytraveller]

As a random aside, how do we know it's the latest tube info? They took the time/date off of the display years ago and even then it could be a few days out of date. This is something that really irks me - I work with data in my job and data where you don't know the source/how long ago it was updated is rather meaningless.

Its worse than meaningless - it could be giving you false information. Like some other poster mentions every now and again there's a 377 still going on about Derby Day in 2020.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Which then stuffs the frequency of the Greenwich line, to 2tph which is pathetic for a busy inner London service (and one which won't benefit from Crossrail once you get past Woolwich)

I've certainly never seen that on Saturdays though.

Probably because the thameslink core is literally never blocked on Saturdays.

 

[43066]

Is it the botch repair from last week needing fixing again or a new problem?

The TL website implies it was discovered yesterday. From my experience this morning it’s in the northbound direction somewhere close to the Farringdon platform. Quite a few delays in that direction as you’d expect.

I’m not entirely sure where last week’s was, but seems a bit of a coincidence if it’s a new one.

 

[Bald Rick]

The TL website implies it was discovered yesterday. From my experience this morning it’s in the northbound direction somewhere close to the Farringdon platform. Quite a few delays in that direction as you’d expect.

I’m not entirely sure where last week’s was, but seems a bit of a coincidence if it’s a new one.

it’s a different issue. Last weeks was at St Pancras, today’s is at Farringdon. Rather unfortunate.

 

[30907]

That's more because most of the stopping services run through to Orpington or terminate at Bromley South. You can't terminate at Bromley South on the Slow Lines and if you ran to Orpington on the Slow you have to cross the entire Chatham Mainline at Bickley Junction which would be a massive limiter on capacity and lead to poor performance. Also, means you can make use of the grade seperated Junction at Shortlands Junction on the Fasts as a lot of the stopping services run up the Catford Loop.

That's why nearly all stopping trains use the Fast lines (I was quite startled to find myself on the Slow at Shortlands a couple of Sundays back) and have done since the diveunder was built - but not why they are called Fasts. That goes back to 1959, and I can only presume was because they were used by the Boat trains.

 

[43066]

it’s a different issue.

Oh dear. That’s a bit of a facepalm (delay) moment…

I’ll get my coat…

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Hopefully not something systemic suddenly coming out of the woodwork here, is there? Just remembering a few years back when a change to the Pendolino pantograph type was suddenly causing wire breakages all over the WCML. Seems strange to get two rail breaks so close together on a relatively new section of infrastructure…

 

[GordonT]

it’s a different issue. Last weeks was at St Pancras, today’s is at Farringdon. Rather unfortunate.

Yes as many have observed a glitch within the core poisons the well for an astonishingly huge catchment area beyond.

 

[Fincra5]

5mph speed restriction at Farringdon (northbound) this morning due to a defective rail.

Chuck in a Signalling Issue between Blackfriars and City (Requiring PoSA operation)... was a not a quick journey!

 

[Minstral25]

Big holes in service today through the Redhill line. Over hour gaps from core to Redhill and lots of smaller stations not seeing any services for almost 2 hours and then bus replacements appeared.

Same old "cannot run service towards London" as no-where to turn round the trains so everything withdrawn. Trust is GTR locally to run a train service along the Redhill line is rapidly evaporating - all self inflicted.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Big holes in service today through the Redhill line. Over hour gaps from core to Redhill and lots of smaller stations not seeing any services for almost 2 hours and then bus replacements appeared.

Same old "cannot run service towards London" as no-where to turn round the trains so everything withdrawn. Trust is GTR locally to run a train service along the Redhill line is rapidly evaporating - all self inflicted.

Its just not that simple. Drivers' diagrams might not allow it, as they need to be in place to finish or for their next workings

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Big holes in service today through the Redhill line. Over hour gaps from core to Redhill and lots of smaller stations not seeing any services for almost 2 hours and then bus replacements appeared.

Same old "cannot run service towards London" as no-where to turn round the trains so everything withdrawn. Trust is GTR locally to run a train service along the Redhill line is rapidly evaporating - all self inflicted.

Drivers diagrams are the biggest issue. There is plenty of spare capacity at London bridge Low Level to turn back at least some trains.

I think long term, a way has got to be found to make crew diagrams more flexible, to allow issues like this to be managed better.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Big holes in service today through the Redhill line. Over hour gaps from core to Redhill and lots of smaller stations not seeing any services for almost 2 hours and then bus replacements appeared.

Same old "cannot run service towards London" as no-where to turn round the trains so everything withdrawn. Trust is GTR locally to run a train service along the Redhill line is rapidly evaporating - all self inflicted.

As usual the 9R's are the easy target and whilst I get they need to thin the service its only the 9R's that have been ditched which doesn't really make sense especially Northbound as the there is a 7min gap to the following train unlike other service groups which are still at 2min headways.

They have finally put stop orders on the 9Jxx's but this should be a standard response straight away when they pull the 9R's but never is.