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Perhaps a mix of the long-standing Bedford - Brighton (4tph) as the fast service, plus a semi-fast Cambridge to Gatwick (2tph) and then a metro-style Luton/Letchworth - Thameslink - East Croydon - Caterham/Coulsdon Town/Tattenham (8tph in total) would work, and return the local service south of Purley to Southern?
Thereby making the Caterham and Tattenham Corner branch 'very vulnerable to problems north of London'.
This isn't the place for speculation but now there isn't the added complication of the peak Victoria services, which are hopefully unlikely to ever return, Caterham / Tattenham Corner to London Bridge half hourly and five car to each is the right service for these two lines. Trying to force extra services over the slow lines between East Croydon and Purley by running separately to Tattenham Corner and Caterham is not a good idea and is a performance risk to the Redhill services.
True but the difference is the shorter journey. Caterham and Tattenham to Luton or Letchworth is essentially a 'metro' trip, comparable to Crossrail or similar systems in other urban areas (RER, Birmingham Glasgow?), whereas Horsham - Peterboroigh is a long way. Was just thinking that a shorter, metro-style network (together with the faster Bedford-Brighton and Cambridge services) would likely be more reliable.
This isn't the place for speculation but now there isn't the added complication of the peak Victoria services, which are hopefully unlikely to ever return, Caterham / Tattenham Corner to London Bridge half hourly and five car to each is the right service for these two lines. Trying to force extra services over the slow lines between East Croydon and Purley by running separately to Tattenham Corner and Caterham is not a good idea and is a performance risk to the Redhill services.
OK that's a fair point, though you could still have 4 of the 8 'metro' services going to Caterham and Tattenham. But yes, not looking for a detailed discussion on this!
The single lead crossover has always part of the problem when planning engineering, it really should be double crossovers both there and at Salfords to ensure ease of recovery along the line and better planning.
Earlswood had back to back double crossovers north of Earlswood station but under Brighton Line Resignalling was rationalised into current configuration nigh on 40 years ago. Putting a double junction further south of Earlswood on the straight section has been looked at but would have necessitated a new interlocking. The south end leads were renewed a few years back and its disappointing that the geometry wasn't improved to squeeze 50mph vice 40 out of it which could have been done without having to move any signals but that would be an enhancement not a plain renewal so needed a different budget.
Thereby making the Caterham and Tattenham Corner branch 'very vulnerable to problems north of London'.
This isn't the place for speculation but now there isn't the added complication of the peak Victoria services, which are hopefully unlikely to ever return, Caterham / Tattenham Corner to London Bridge half hourly and five car to each is the right service for these two lines. Trying to force extra services over the slow lines between East Croydon and Purley by running separately to Tattenham Corner and Caterham is not a good idea and is a performance risk to the Redhill services.
The performance risk on the slow lines is exacerbated by poor regulation on this section, particularly southbound, although the generous station times at RDH means its generally revovered. Specifically i never get why DS traffic is routed 99% of the time via the 20mph route at South Croydon rather than use the 40mph connection on the Nth side of South Croydon.
Agree - P0 has been an unmitigated disaster for passengers at Redhill. A useful convenient cross-platform connection abandoned for long platform changes along a difficult route meaning last minute platform changes are a nightmare and stopping points long distances from the subway.
I've seen the Redhill chaos in all its glory. Some of the passengers would give Usain Bolt a good run for his money as they sprint from platform 2 to platform 0. I've not convinced that the train would even wait but sometimes one of the faster passengers blocks the doors until the slower ones catch up.
Littlehaven and Ifield combined have almost identical passenger numbers to Earlswood and Salfords (ELD/SAF) combined. Yet disruption is disproportionally constantly aimed at ELD/SAF to save the service at Littlehaven and Ifield which is reducing passengers numbers at ELD/SAF. Self-inflicted pain.
Realistically a better solution would be to timetable the split of the Arun Valley trains at Three Bridges on Sunday and the slow portion call at Littlehaven and Ifield on Sundays which will allow more flexibility about the Horsham Thameslink to ensure it can call at Earlswood and Salfords properly.
I've seen the Redhill chaos in all its glory. Some of the passengers would give Usain Bolt a good run for his money as they sprint from platform 2 to platform 0. I've not convinced that the train would even wait but sometimes one of the faster passengers blocks the doors until the slower ones catch up.
Four minutes delay to the Horsham to Peterborough service is generally enough to see the Reigate to London Victoria train use platform 0 rather than following it into platform 2. Most people appear to change platforms rather than catching the Peterborough service and changing further north.
Of note is that the Horsham to Peterborough service and same platform interchange at East Croydon onto a different Victoria service is often quicker than using the Reigate to Victoria service.
Tonight the Redhill 17:59 to Gatwick Airport service (from Bedford) is cancelled due to staff shortages. There is however a train to Three Bridges before it which stops at intermediate stations so Earlswood and Salfords don't lose out, as long as you get there early.
Alas, that doesn't connect off the train from Reading, unlike the 17:59.
After that, the next trains to be cancelled are the 21:07 and 22:07, both of which go to Horsham.
Earlier in the day, the 14:55 departed 15 minutes late due to staff shortages. In addition, the 14:25 departed 2 minutes late due to staff shortages as well.
I'm using National Rail Enquiries for the reasons given.
So out of all the trains today only 3 cancelled and 2 delays. That can't be too bad unless you rely on one of those to make a connection to be somewhere.
I could have claimed delay repay but actually the need to be somewhere at a set time was more important than the repay.
Tonight the Redhill 17:59 to Gatwick Airport service (from Bedford) is cancelled due to staff shortages. There is however a train to Three Bridges before it which stops at intermediate stations so Earlswood and Salfords don't lose out, as long as you get there early.
Alas, that doesn't connect off the train from Reading, unlike the 17:59.
After that, the next trains to be cancelled are the 21:07 and 22:07, both of which go to Horsham.
Earlier in the day, the 14:55 departed 15 minutes late due to staff shortages. In addition, the 14:25 departed 2 minutes late due to staff shortages as well.
I'm using National Rail Enquiries for the reasons given.
So out of all the trains today only 3 cancelled and 2 delays. That can't be too bad unless you rely on one of those to make a connection to be somewhere.
I could have claimed delay repay but actually the need to be somewhere at a set time was more important than the repay.
Not ideal of course but no worse than a normal day. What would be interesting to know for a weekday on TL is how many drivers the plan needs and how many and where do they hold spare turns.
Not ideal of course but no worse than a normal day. What would be interesting to know for a weekday on TL is how many drivers the plan needs and how many and where do they hold spare turns.
When I compare cancelled from Redhill to Gatwick Airport to Gatwick Airport to Brighton on Thameslink for the last 100 days, using Recent Train Times, they are don't seem too different overall Monday to Friday.
However, if I compare them to South Western Railway between London Waterloo and Woking, I find them to be worse. Obviously, I don't know the cancellation reasons.
I'm on my mobile and can't easily paste in the table.
Being a regular user of Saturday and Sunday trains from the Redhill lines I can say that this statement is totally wrong. Weekend STP planning is abysmal along the route. Regularly different services every weekend for over 2 years now, different train times mean confused passengers. Southern and Thameslink cannot be bothered to explain changes to passengers with proper communication relying on the "look at NRE" on a line that Monday to Friday is turn up and go. The poor STP planning is losing passengers to the railway.
Much that I understand the frustration this post shows a complete lack on understanding of how train planning actually works and the constraints of the infrastructure and timetable when there are two track possessions.
So do you serisouly propose that every single train at Earlswood and Salfords calls at the same time every weekend. That is literally impossible. For example, if there is a two track possession say between Earlswood and Balcombe Tunnel Junction, the 9Rxx are removed, the 9Jxx then have a Purley call added to them so Purley still gets a fast service into London Bridge. This then means the 9Jxx will now be later as they are making an aditional call. The second bigger issues, is that every weekend has a different combination of possessions across the Sussex, Kent, ECML and MML which means having consistent train times week on week for every station is just not possible. And the fact is, the BML timetable is not built around Earlswood and Salfords stations and never will be for obvious reasons.
Weekend STP is not abysmal, its trying to make the best of trying to fit as many trains as possible in on a very congested section of Network, and balance the needs of a huge variety of passengers from a large number of locations. Ultimately if you want to improve performance, you need to remove trains, most likely trains to Brighton which are full of people who will just crowd onto other services and cause overcrowding. Its a double edged sword.
Now I do defintley agree that communication about these changes needs to improve.
Also please show me what evidence that poor STP planning is losing passengers for the railway?
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The performance risk on the slow lines is exacerbated by poor regulation on this section, particularly southbound, although the generous station times at RDH means its generally revovered. Specifically i never get why DS traffic is routed 99% of the time via the 20mph route at South Croydon rather than use the 40mph connection on the Nth side of South Croydon.
The booked route is via the DS so majority of signallers just follow the plan but occasionally you get one that realises the facilities are there to be used to regulate the service or deal with late running. Too many know they will be pulled up if they fail reverse so don't use them.
So do you serisouly propose that every single train at Earlswood and Salfords calls at the same time every weekend. That is literally impossible. For example, if there is a two track possession say between Earlswood and Balcombe Tunnel Junction, the 9Rxx are removed, the 9Jxx then have a Purley call added to them so Purley still gets a fast service into London Bridge. This then means the 9Jxx will now be later as they are making an aditional call. The second bigger issues, is that every weekend has a different combination of possessions across the Sussex, Kent, ECML and MML which means having consistent train times week on week for every station is just not possible. And the fact is, the BML timetable is not built around Earlswood and Salfords stations and never will be for obvious reasons.
To start with STP isn't abysmal but last Saturday showed how fragile the plan is when you max it out to full capacity so your point is well made. As I understand it there weren't infrastructure issues but crewing issues at TBD causing platforms to occupied for too long leading to trains stacking up then the inevitable thinning of the service to recover it.
I also get your view on Earlswood/Salfords but Earlswood particularly loses out on many weekends already due to cyclic possessions on the Redhill lines then is getting no service for several additional weekends as well albeit I get its related to the rebuild at Gatwick which is one off (well it isn't really as we suffered for Gatwick P7 , Redhill P0, Brighton Line Upgrade). You say its not possible to serve Earlswood and Salfords but an hourly path could be found by not running half hourly to Eastbourne/Ore and Littlehampton as per this weekend. So if the Eastbourne path was taken out and it was run from Haywards Heath these stations could have a service. This is a historic choice on this route and its fair to say ever since Brighton Line Resignalling took place these two stations have been sacrificed yet it fails to taken account the considerable amount of new housing that has been built between Redhill and Horley which is why until pre covid the station useage had risen considerably over the last decade and the train operators need to be more reflective of changes.
Im also wondering whether TL imposed more constraints on the train planning teams which reduces there options?
The booked route is via the DS so majority of signallers just follow the plan but occasionally you get one that realises the facilities are there to be used to regulate the service or deal with late running. Too many know they will be pulled up if they fail reverse so don't use them.
To start with STP isn't abysmal but last Saturday showed how fragile the plan is when you max it out to full capacity so your point is well made. As I understand it there weren't infrastructure issues but crewing issues at TBD causing platforms to occupied for too long leading to trains stacking up then the inevitable thinning of the service to recover it.
I also get your view on Earlswood/Salfords but Earlswood particularly loses out on many weekends already due to cyclic possessions on the Redhill lines then is getting no service for several additional weekends as well albeit I get its related to the rebuild at Gatwick which is one off (well it isn't really as we suffered for Gatwick P7 , Redhill P0, Brighton Line Upgrade). You say its not possible to serve Earlswood and Salfords but an hourly path could be found by not running half hourly to Eastbourne/Ore and Littlehampton as per this weekend. So if the Eastbourne path was taken out and it was run from Haywards Heath these stations could have a service. This is a historic choice on this route and its fair to say ever since Brighton Line Resignalling took place these two stations have been sacrificed yet it fails to taken account the considerable amount of new housing that has been built between Redhill and Horley which is why until pre covid the station useage had risen considerably over the last decade and the train operators need to be more reflective of changes.
Im also wondering whether TL imposed more constraints on the train planning teams which reduces there options?
I think ultimately comes down the the fact that running an half hourly Eastbourne and Littlehampton services is more profitable for GTR then serving Earlswood and Salfords I suspect.
Yeah the timetable has defintley been fragile recently, but hopefully this will improve in the future and certain issues will have been resolved to create a more robust plan.
At least, this Saturday there are no trains terminating at either Gatwick Airport and Three Bridges apart from the hourly GWR, so performance should be much better despite there being 15tph running as you shouldn't get trains blocking up the platforms at either Gatwick Airport and Three Bridges.
TL has made things more difficult, but ultimately the biggest constraint with Thameslink trains is not their paths on the ECML and MML as too be honest these can easily be worked around, its Blackfriars Junction which is the biggest issue and what causes most of the constraints for planning teams when it comes to Thameslink.
I think ultimately comes down the the fact that running an half hourly Eastbourne and Littlehampton services is more profitable for GTR then serving Earlswood and Salfords I suspect.
Yeah the timetable has defintley been fragile recently, but hopefully this will improve in the future and certain issues will have been resolved to create a more robust plan.
At least, this Saturday there are no trains terminating at either Gatwick Airport and Three Bridges apart from the hourly GWR, so performance should be much better despite there being 15tph running as you shouldn't get trains blocking up the platforms at either Gatwick Airport and Three Bridges.
TL has made things more difficult, but ultimately the biggest constraint with Thameslink trains is not their paths on the ECML and MML as too be honest these can easily be worked around, its Blackfriars Junction which is the biggest issue and what causes most of the constraints for planning teams when it comes to Thameslink.
GTR operate the service for the govt now and canning off one of the Eastbourne doesn't deprive them of one through service so people will still travel. If you have no service at a station you will put off all but those who have no choice - the empty rail replacement buses travelling down the A23 are a testament to that last weekend especially as they don't even go via Salfords station your expected to walk down to the A23 hardly an incentive and even worse if your not aware when you arrive at the station that even the RRB doesn't come via the station. So much for putting the passengers first.
Interesting about Blackfriars Jcn being the constraint although I guess thats the interaction with Sutton/Orpington TLk service group probably explains why they aren't keen to introduce Maidstone East to Cambridge i guess.
GTR operate the service for the govt now and canning off one of the Eastbourne doesn't deprive them of one through service so people will still travel. If you have no service at a station you will put off all but those who have no choice - the empty rail replacement buses travelling down the A23 are a testament to that last weekend especially as they don't even go via Salfords station your expected to walk down to the A23 hardly an incentive and even worse if your not aware when you arrive at the station that even the RRB doesn't come via the station. So much for putting the passengers first.
Interesting about Blackfriars Jcn being the constraint although I guess thats the interaction with Sutton/Orpington TLk service group probably explains why they aren't keen to introduce Maidstone East to Cambridge i guess.
Everything is so tightly timed at Blackfiars Junction it means that if even one train arrives even 30 seconds later, you then end up having to send 5 other trains 30 seconds later and it just causes a huge knock on effect timetabling wise.
GTR operate the service for the govt now and canning off one of the Eastbourne doesn't deprive them of one through service so people will still travel. If you have no service at a station you will put off all but those who have no choice - the empty rail replacement buses travelling down the A23 are a testament to that last weekend especially as they don't even go via Salfords station your expected to walk down to the A23 hardly an incentive and even worse if your not aware when you arrive at the station that even the RRB doesn't come via the station. So much for putting the passengers first
Rail replacement buses at Salfords have always departed from the A23 just as they do at Merstham. Realistically, passenger numbers at Earlswood and Salfords at off peak times simply aren't significant. It might be recalled that Salfords had no Sunday service for many years. The restoration of that service was on the basis that it would have the kind of disruption is now has - eg there would be some Sundays when it wasn't possible to serve the station.
As I posted before, people (not just enthusiasts) do refer to electronic means to check timetables now so a moving train timetable can work.
I think ultimately comes down the the fact that running an half hourly Eastbourne and Littlehampton services is more profitable for GTR then serving Earlswood and Salfords I suspect.
Rail replacement buses at Salfords have always departed from the A23 just as they do at Merstham. Realistically, passenger numbers at Earlswood and Salfords at off peak times simply aren't significant. It might be recalled that Salfords had no Sunday service for many years. The restoration of that service was on the basis that it would have the kind of disruption is now has - eg there would be some Sundays when it wasn't possible to serve the station.
As I posted before, people (not just enthusiasts) do refer to electronic means to check timetables now so a moving train timetable can work.
Agree that is a fair point in that most people access the times off a device if not pay for their ticket now but still doesn't detract from its a bus so i won't bother using the train in the first place though behaviour.
I think that's the first time I've seen Connex 319s referred to as the heyday! But yes it was much more reliable when you had six units trundling up and down, three to Charing Cross and three to Victoria (or London Bridge in later years).
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That just moves the problem down the line. The reliability of the service at Littlehaven and Ifield is already worse than when it was run by Southern. Which Southern trains will stop when Thameslink goes wrong is a lottery. Will it be the one five minutes before or 25 minutes after? Not a problem in the down direction because people can get off at Horsham and walk, take a taxi or get a lift, but people heading up need to know which train will stop.
They can also get a bus - Metrobus runs a half hourly route 200 (hourly on Sundays) from 04:00 / 4am until 20:00 / 8pm, stopping right outside Littlehaven train station.
They can also get a bus - Metrobus runs a half hourly route 200 (hourly on Sundays) from 04:00 / 4am until 20:00 / 8pm, stopping right outside Littlehaven train station.
The performance risk on the slow lines is exacerbated by poor regulation on this section, particularly southbound, although the generous station times at RDH means its generally revovered. Specifically i never get why DS traffic is routed 99% of the time via the 20mph route at South Croydon rather than use the 40mph connection on the Nth side of South Croydon.
The booked route is via the DS so majority of signallers just follow the plan but occasionally you get one that realises the facilities are there to be used to regulate the service or deal with late running. Too many know they will be pulled up if they fail reverse so don't use them.
I tend to exclusively use T1626 crossover all the time at South Croydon Junction with T137 signal placed into auto working towards the Down East Grinstead as apposed to using T1629 & T1630, then use T135 signal exclusively for Down Slow Line traffic towards Purley. I know one or two colleagues use T1626 points selectively, but most of my colleagues are too fearful to use them for various reasons.
Much that I understand the frustration this post shows a complete lack on understanding of how train planning actually works and the constraints of the infrastructure and timetable when there are two track possessions.
So do you serisouly propose that every single train at Earlswood and Salfords calls at the same time every weekend. That is literally impossible. For example, if there is a two track possession say between Earlswood and Balcombe Tunnel Junction, the 9Rxx are removed, the 9Jxx then have a Purley call added to them so Purley still gets a fast service into London Bridge. This then means the 9Jxx will now be later as they are making an aditional call. The second bigger issues, is that every weekend has a different combination of possessions across the Sussex, Kent, ECML and MML which means having consistent train times week on week for every station is just not possible. And the fact is, the BML timetable is not built around Earlswood and Salfords stations and never will be for obvious reasons.
Weekend STP is not abysmal, its trying to make the best of trying to fit as many trains as possible in on a very congested section of Network, and balance the needs of a huge variety of passengers from a large number of locations. Ultimately if you want to improve performance, you need to remove trains, most likely trains to Brighton which are full of people who will just crowd onto other services and cause overcrowding. Its a double edged sword.
Now I do defintley agree that communication about these changes needs to improve.
Also please show me what evidence that poor STP planning is losing passengers for the railway?
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Apologies if I offended but the weekend "STP" service is generally not good along the Redhill line. Not necessarily that it doesn’t work for train schedules as a plan but for the poor passengers who have to live with constant confusion. Haven’t done a survey on lost passengers but I am part of several local groups (both for work and leisure) and it is noticeable that more people now use cars now who used to go by train, especially to the south coast.
Different local examples of “STP” created problems for passengers include when the Victoria to Reigate train is withdrawn (which is several times a year for understandable reasons) and the Tonbridge train is extended to Reigate. This train rarely connects at Redhill leaving passengers who have a normal through train with 20-40 minute waits, sometimes both ways. Also, when this happens on Saturdays the Reigate service is halved. A couple of weekends ago Redhill had 3 trains per hour to London, except they all ran within 10 minutes leaving a 50 minute gap, that problem happens at Merstham and Coulsdon South several times a year.
No, I don’t expect Earlswood and Salfords to have the same service every weekend, I am not that naïve, but I don’t expect it to be completely different timings every weekend. Situation is exacerbated as the Sunday service at Earlswood was reduced to hourly for Gatwick works when it should have half-hourly services anyway.
The real annoyance is that the restrictions to local stations are to ensure express trains keep to their fast times when slowing them with extra stops to provide sufficient service at intermediate stations would be helpful. My view is that STP planners should take more time to look at problems created and look for mitigations which is not just to the obvious local trains. Additionally the provision of an extra train in the diagrams would often allow better and reliable service (perhaps taking in extra stops) but a target of the STP plans seems to be to reduce trains/drivers for cost reasons despite major service groups being withdrawn that already has cut need for Drivers/trains to be used.
I do understand train planning is complex and not easy, especially when a four track railway is cut to two tracks, but the STP planners are supposed to be experts and do often seem to create service patterns that work to cut costs and not to provide a good service.
I tend to exclusively use T1626 crossover all the time at South Croydon Junction with T137 signal placed into auto working towards the Down East Grinstead as apposed to using T1629 & T1630, then use T135 signal exclusively for Down Slow Line traffic towards Purley. I know one or two colleagues use T1626 points selectively, but most of my colleagues are too fearful to use them for various reasons.
Sunset thankyou for that insight and you are to be congratulated for your approach. I should retract my accusation of poor regulation as I did suspect there was probably underlying reasons why they didn't get used. Mind you would expect that when senior mgt make statements that every second counts they would ensure that all the infrastructure can be relied upon.
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. A couple of weekends ago Redhill had 3 trains per hour to London, except they all ran within 10 minutes leaving a 50 minute gap, that problem happens at Merstham and Coulsdon South several times a year.
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