Thameslink Horsham- Peterborough

[highflyer777]

Hello all,
A good friend of mine travels from Horley to Redhill daily and often uses the above service however it is almost always late or cancelled does anybody have a reason for this?

cheers

 

[baz962]

Hello all,
A good friend of mine travels from Horley to Redhill daily and often uses the above service however it is almost always late or cancelled does anybody have a reason for this?

cheers

I'm sure other people will comment on here that are more in the know , but I know that there is a shortage of drivers.

 

[JonathanH]

Hello all,
A good friend of mine travels from Horley to Redhill daily and often uses the above service however it is almost always late or cancelled does anybody have a reason for this?

cheers

Tight turnaround at Horsham, delays on the Arun Valley service, congestion through Gatwick could all contribute.

 

[30907]

Hello all,
A good friend of mine travels from Horley to Redhill daily and often uses the above service however it is almost always late or cancelled does anybody have a reason for this?

cheers

Any particular time of day? That might help identify a problem.

 

[dk1]

Hello all,
A good friend of mine travels from Horley to Redhill daily and often uses the above service however it is almost always late or cancelled does anybody have a reason for this?

cheers

Delays & cancellations are to be expected if travelling weekends. Weekdays aren’t usually too bad.

 

[Javelin_55]

Lack of drivers is a common one for cancellations. As for delays, what the others have said. I'll add that late running shuttles to Tonbridge can also have an effect approaching Redhill.

 

[Bald Rick]

Hello all,
A good friend of mine travels from Horley to Redhill daily and often uses the above service however it is almost always late or cancelled does anybody have a reason for this?

cheers

Your friend must be very unlucky. Only one Horsham - Peterborough train was cancelled today, and only one yesterday. That’s out of 78 services each weekday from Horley to Redhill.

 

[Urban Gateline]

Your friend must be very unlucky. Only one Horsham - Peterborough train was cancelled today, and only one yesterday. That’s out of 78 services each weekday from Horley to Redhill.

I was thinking that too! I use the service to commute on the PBO-London section and for the last few months it's been incredibly reliable on weekdays, it was quite bad during summer though but from September I noticed a marked improvement!

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Its pretty reliable in my experience and when it has fallen apart recently its been due to an incident on ECML.

 

[grumblingalong]

I was thinking that too! I use the service to commute on the PBO-London section and for the last few months it's been incredibly reliable on weekdays, it was quite bad during summer though but from September I noticed a marked improvement!

Ditto, bar incidents and the very annoying shortages of drivers especially on weekends it's an incredibly reliable service. I'm in London three days a week at the moment and haven't claimed a delay repay for 3 months.

 

[bramling]

Your friend must be very unlucky. Only one Horsham - Peterborough train was cancelled today, and only one yesterday. That’s out of 78 services each weekday from Horley to Redhill.

Not really my experience I’m afraid. If I use the train for work, with the service as it is at the moment there’s three potential services within a half-hour window which I could use, two of which being Horsham/Peterborough and one being Cambridge/Brighton. It is very much the exception for all three to run, and this has been the case for as long as I can remember. Though, for the purposes of this thread, for balance it should be said that the Cambridge/Brighton is the less reliable.

And, of course, when something happens then it tends to be a complete meltdown, quite often with some considerable gaps to destinations, and often persisting very long after the original incident cleared. If something happens from early afternoon onwards then that’s it for the rest of the day IME.

Then there was a Saturday recently when we wanted to do a local walk, and we couldn’t even get one stop because of a gap in the service, and with the platform being packed we didn’t rate the chances of being able to board when a service did turn up. Journey duly abandoned.

To be fair things may have improved a bit in very recent times compared to the summer, however for me the damage is done - the combination of unreliability and the loss of the 365 services has got me used to using the car. It didn’t help that the one day I did decide to give the train a go I got caught up in the Hitchin signal failure the other week and didn’t get home until 0200. I can’t really see myself changing back to train being the default means, now it’s the exception.

In all honest things haven’t been dependable since May 18. In the case of weekends this has been the case for many years, certainly well into FCC days.

 

[highflyer777]

Thanks for everybody’s input and experience. He usually gets the train at 8.58am I believe and then back again around 18.30 approximately. This morning it ran to Gatwick and was then cancelled I believe. I think the explanation given to him was an unexpected event so not sure what that would be.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Nov 2021 ==

Just to also add my friends just sent me screenshots and it was cancelled 2nd Nov 19mins late 3rd 4th cancelled 8th/9th cancelled

 

[Bald Rick]

Thanks for everybody’s input and experience. He usually gets the train at 8.58am I believe and then back again around 18.30 approximately. This morning it ran to Gatwick and was then cancelled I believe. I think the explanation given to him was an unexpected event so not sure what that would be.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Nov 2021 ==

Just to also add my friends just sent me screenshots and it was cancelled 2nd Nov 19mins late 3rd 4th cancelled 8th/9th cancelled

The 0858 Horley - Redhill is a Gatwick - Bedford train. Since 2/11 (arrival at Redhill):

2nd 3L
3rd 1L
4th RT
5th 2L

8th 3L
9th 8L

There’s trains from Redhill at 1823 (a Redhill - Three Bridges portion off a Victoria to Reigate train), and 1828 (a Bedford - Gatwick). Both were on time arriving at Horley today; yesterday 2 / 4 mins late respectively.

 

[al78]

It has to go into Horsham. Horsham is the European capital of slowness, and it is against the law here for things to be done swiftly and to time. That is why roadworks here take weeks or months to complete, even if they have been scheduled for only a week.

On a more serious note, maybe your friend has been unlucky. I've used this service (admittedly very rarely) in the past and it has been punctual for me.

 

[Surreytraveller]

The 0858 Horley - Redhill is a Gatwick - Bedford train. Since 2/11 (arrival at Redhill):

2nd 3L
3rd 1L
4th RT
5th 2L

8th 3L
9th 8L

There’s trains from Redhill at 1823 (a Redhill - Three Bridges portion off a Victoria to Reigate train), and 1828 (a Bedford - Gatwick). Both were on time arriving at Horley today; yesterday 2 / 4 mins late respectively.

The Gatwick to Bedfords are the first service group to be removed when the service needs thinning out, as it only affects Salfords and Horley, and stops can easily enough be put on the Horshams to compensate.
The Peterborough to Horshams have got better lately, but the trouble is with long end to end journey times, they quite often get put on the Quarry Lines to make up time

 

[JonathanH]

Peterborough to Horshams have got better lately, but the trouble is with long end to end journey times, they quite often get put on the Quarry Lines to make up time

...which can make up almost 20 minutes of delay in some cases so it is fairly apparent why it gets done.

 

[Minstral25]

Timetable provision along the Redhill corridor on first glance is very good and when it all runs to time it is.

However in reality the 9R (Bedford to Gatwick) and 9J (Peterborough to Horsham) services via Redhill are poor generally. The 9R are the first service group removed when there is a problem which except peak completely removes the service from Earlswood (Surrey) and Salfords plus reduced Thameslink services at other stations between Redhill and Gatwick by half. When the 9R goes outside peak the 9J group makes extra calls at Earlswood and Salfords alternatively (making hourly calls instead of half-hourly). This is often compounded by the Southern 1R Reigate to Victoria service also being one of the first cut to Victoria when there is disruption as well (as much of the day it is only a 4 car service).

On top of this calls are regularly cut between East Croydon and Gatwick to catch up the train services (normally once 10 minutes late at East Croydon going south, or at Gatwick going north), sometimes even after the train has left East Croydon meaning passengers often overcarried to Gatwick. This also means if you look at Recent Train Times it looks like the call has been made when in reality it was a train passing through the station in question.

At weekends the service is often very different from the standard timetable. Times are often changed, services patterns seem to change every weekend and many stations find they have very poor service, often effectively hourly which along a commuter turn up and go line is very poor. Earlswood and Salfords in particular often have catch a local bus whose timetable is anything but integrated with the train services. The service pattern changes every time their is work along the ECML towards Peterborough or MML to Bedford or in the core or at Gatwick or south of Gatwick and even occasionally along the Redhill corridor itself and of course when the knitting collapses.

All in all this creates a very poor perception of the train service along the Redhill corridor which passengers are getting frustrated by. When it runs it is brilliant but so much of the time issues pervade, at least once or twice a week. The original poster is correct that service often feels poor along what should be a turn up and go commuter route.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Timetable provision along the Redhill corridor on first glance is very good and when it all runs to time it is.

However in reality the 9R (Bedford to Gatwick) and 9J (Peterborough to Horsham) services via Redhill are poor generally. The 9R are the first service group removed when there is a problem which except peak completely removes the service from Earlswood (Surrey) and Salfords plus reduced Thameslink services at other stations between Redhill and Gatwick by half. When the 9R goes outside peak the 9J group makes extra calls at Earlswood and Salfords alternatively (making hourly calls instead of half-hourly). This is often compounded by the Southern 1R Reigate to Victoria service also being one of the first cut to Victoria when there is disruption as well (as much of the day it is only a 4 car service).

On top of this calls are regularly cut between East Croydon and Gatwick to catch up the train services (normally once 10 minutes late at East Croydon going south, or at Gatwick going north), sometimes even after the train has left East Croydon meaning passengers often overcarried to Gatwick. This also means if you look at Recent Train Times it looks like the call has been made when in reality it was a train passing through the station in question.

At weekends the service is often very different from the standard timetable. Times are often changed, services patterns seem to change every weekend and many stations find they have very poor service, often effectively hourly which along a commuter turn up and go line is very poor. Earlswood and Salfords in particular often have catch a local bus whose timetable is anything but integrated with the train services. The service pattern changes every time their is work along the ECML towards Peterborough or MML to Bedford or in the core or at Gatwick or south of Gatwick and even occasionally along the Redhill corridor itself and of course when the knitting collapses.

All in all this creates a very poor perception of the train service along the Redhill corridor which passengers are getting frustrated by. When it runs it is brilliant but so much of the time issues pervade, at least once or twice a week. The original poster is correct that service often feels poor along what should be a turn up and go commuter route.

Ministral been using this line 32 years and its been an operational inconvenience to whoever has run it be it BR or GTR. The one positive is service provision to London has tripled off peak since i started commuting so its not so bad when it falls apart. With the good layovers on the 9R's we don't get the skip stopping we used to experience at the lesser used stations on the route. Its heyday was Connex 319's on CX-HRH very handy if you worked in the general offices!!

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Timetable provision along the Redhill corridor on first glance is very good and when it all runs to time it is.

However in reality the 9R (Bedford to Gatwick) and 9J (Peterborough to Horsham) services via Redhill are poor generally. The 9R are the first service group removed when there is a problem which except peak completely removes the service from Earlswood (Surrey) and Salfords plus reduced Thameslink services at other stations between Redhill and Gatwick by half. When the 9R goes outside peak the 9J group makes extra calls at Earlswood and Salfords alternatively (making hourly calls instead of half-hourly). This is often compounded by the Southern 1R Reigate to Victoria service also being one of the first cut to Victoria when there is disruption as well (as much of the day it is only a 4 car service).

On top of this calls are regularly cut between East Croydon and Gatwick to catch up the train services (normally once 10 minutes late at East Croydon going south, or at Gatwick going north), sometimes even after the train has left East Croydon meaning passengers often overcarried to Gatwick. This also means if you look at Recent Train Times it looks like the call has been made when in reality it was a train passing through the station in question.

At weekends the service is often very different from the standard timetable. Times are often changed, services patterns seem to change every weekend and many stations find they have very poor service, often effectively hourly which along a commuter turn up and go line is very poor. Earlswood and Salfords in particular often have catch a local bus whose timetable is anything but integrated with the train services. The service pattern changes every time their is work along the ECML towards Peterborough or MML to Bedford or in the core or at Gatwick or south of Gatwick and even occasionally along the Redhill corridor itself and of course when the knitting collapses.

All in all this creates a very poor perception of the train service along the Redhill corridor which passengers are getting frustrated by. When it runs it is brilliant but so much of the time issues pervade, at least once or twice a week. The original poster is ctorrect that service often feels poor along what should be a turn up and go commuter route.

The issue with weekends are possessions on the BML and a lack of capacity and that's why times keep changing. For example next weekend there is a 2 track possession betweeen Earlswood and Balcombe Tunnel Junction which means all services are running on the Slow Lines. Thre are 17tph booked down through Earlswood in the WTT on the Slow and Fast lines, putting these all on the Slow lines is impossible with the 4 minute stopping headway in the down direction and even if you remove 2tph to knick it down to 15tph, with the 4 minute stopping headway, there is no capacity for trains to call at Earlswood and Salfords. The timetable as it is next Saturday is already very much pushing the bounds of what is possible. I appreciate that its frustrating for Earlswood and Salfords passengers, but ultimately there are always winners and losers duing timetbales around engineering works and sadly Earlswood and Salfords are losers. If you did add the calls in, you would ultimately have to remove another 2tph, likely 2tph from Victoria to Brighton which services will carry a far higher custom and number of passengers than any passengers coming from Earlswood and Salfords would. Its a frustrating situation, but engineering works massively reduce capacity, and then current timetbale for next saturday is already borderline impossible as it is, without trains stopping at Earlswood and Salfords as an example.

 

[johncrossley]

The Quarry Line inevitably ruins the service through Redhill. If you want a proper train service, realistically you have to be south of Gatwick.

 

[JonathanH]

The Quarry Line inevitably ruins the service through Redhill. If you want a proper train service, realistically you have to be south of Gatwick.

Ruins the service? 6tph to London is reasonable from Redhill and more than some places both nearer and further away from London get.

That said, I am on the 1959 from Redhill to Peterborough that was late into Horsham. Nine minutes late off Redhill with Merstham and Coulsdon South sacrificed to give it a chance of being on time onto the ECML.

I dont really have a problem with the changes at Redhill each weekend. It adds a bit of variety and most people check train times on apps and the like these days rather than relying on a printed timetable. I appreciate it may be a bit different at the smaller stations.

Something needs to be done about the 4-car trains to Victoria on Saturdays and that might mean Reigate losing its through service to London. I reckon most people would cope with changing at Redhill. Despite there being plenty of capacity on Thameslink services from Redhill it does seem that demand continues to be skewed more to Victoria and South West London.

I sometimes get the impression that, into the evening, people will travel to Reigate if the train is there but if they arrive in Redhill and find there is no train to Reigate they just walk or get a taxi.

 

[johncrossley]

Ruins the service? 6tph to London is reasonable from Redhill and more than some places both nearer and further away from London get.

Despite being considerably further away from London, Three Bridges and Haywards Heath have more trains per hour and suffer less from weekend engineering work, particularly Three Bridges which almost never needs a bus replacement towards London.

 

[Minstral25]

Ministral been using this line 32 years and its been an operational inconvenience to whoever has run it be it BR or GTR. The one positive is service provision to London has tripled off peak since i started commuting so its not so bad when it falls apart. With the good layovers on the 9R's we don't get the skip stopping we used to experience at the lesser used stations on the route. Its heyday was Connex 319's on CX-HRH very handy if you worked in the general offices!!

About 1-2 years more than me then so similar memories. It is much better now but it should be a regular turn up and go service with number of passengers (at least pre-covid). If passengers didn't have to keep checking train times than usage would rocket. The opportunity is there.

The issue with weekends are possessions on the BML and a lack of capacity and that's why times keep changing. For example next weekend there is a 2 track possession betweeen Earlswood and Balcombe Tunnel Junction which means all services are running on the Slow Lines. Thre are 17tph booked down through Earlswood in the WTT on the Slow and Fast lines, putting these all on the Slow lines is impossible with the 4 minute stopping headway in the down direction and even if you remove 2tph to knick it down to 15tph, with the 4 minute stopping headway, there is no capacity for trains to call at Earlswood and Salfords. The timetable as it is next Saturday is already very much pushing the bounds of what is possible. I appreciate that its frustrating for Earlswood and Salfords passengers, but ultimately there are always winners and losers duing timetbales around engineering works and sadly Earlswood and Salfords are losers. If you did add the calls in, you would ultimately have to remove another 2tph, likely 2tph from Victoria to Brighton which services will carry a far higher custom and number of passengers than any passengers coming from Earlswood and Salfords would. Its a frustrating situation, but engineering works massively reduce capacity, and then current timetbale for next saturday is already borderline impossible as it is, without trains stopping at Earlswood and Salfords as an example.

It's understood why, but it creates a disincentive to use the service. Always easy to complain which puts others off and creates a general feeling of a bad service. The constant issues and timetable manipulation will be permanently losing passengers. the captive commuters who will travel whatever are not there at the weekend. The casual travelers do seem to be getting in their cars.

I dont really have a problem with the changes at Redhill each weekend. It adds a bit of variety and most people check train times on apps and the like these days rather than relying on a printed timetable. I appreciate it may be a bit different at the smaller stations.

Something needs to be done about the 4-car trains to Victoria on Saturdays and that might mean Reigate losing its through service to London. I reckon most people would cope with changing at Redhill. Despite there being plenty of capacity on Thameslink services from Redhill it does seem that demand continues to be skewed more to Victoria and South West London.

I sometimes get the impression that, into the evening, people will travel to Reigate if the train is there but if they arrive in Redhill and find there is no train to Reigate they just walk or get a taxi.

For the weekend changes, as I would assume you are a train enthusiast and interested in timetables I would expect you to check, but many who are not so well informed do not as they just turn up and get disappointed.

Reigate usage went up significantly when the regular through service was added, so it would be reasonable to expect it to crash back if there was a connecting service instead. Mostly as people do not believe it will actually connect and the constant stories of trains departing as passengers were running up the platform would return (right time railway). Redhill is not a well designed station to connect at either, with lack of Passenger screens at the right places and single passageway at one end of station, including the convoluted route to P0 which makes changing worse too.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

It's understood why, but it creates a disincentive to use the service. Always easy to complain which puts others off and creates a general feeling of a bad service. The constant issues and timetable manipulation will be permanently losing passengers. the captive commuters who will travel whatever are not there at the weekend. The casual travelers do seem to be getting in their cars.

I understand, but what do you propose as a solution to solve it? I appreciate the current situation isn't ideal, but it is the best possible outcome in my view for the overall BML, but sadly means that Earslwood and Salfords stations as two of the lowest used stations on the BML are losers.

 

[Minstral25]

I understand, but what do you propose as a solution to solve it? I appreciate the current situation isn't ideal, but it is the best possible outcome in my view for the overall BML, but sadly means that Earslwood and Salfords stations as two of the lowest used stations on the BML are losers.

Earlswood and Salfords may not be large stations but in particular Earlswood is well used at 400k per annum and is in the middle of a walk to station area. The changes also seriously affects Reigate, Redhill, Horley and Merstham.

I do agree solutions are not easy but much of it is caused by timetable planning rules developed by GTR because they have long distance Thameslink trains. They are also scared of risk to split the Reigate train at Redhill to send 4/8 coaches to Horsham. Solutions head down speculation route and this post is not in the speculation area, but I would think creating a regular 4tph service all stations from Purley to Horsham would be a start.

Also turning early to provide services to bigger stations instead of insisting train must get to Horsham to turn around, thus avoid skip stopping the Redhill route would help. Big stations after and including Gatwick are served by other faster services especially Crawley and Horsham which tend to place the bulk of their passengers on the Arun Valley trains not Thameslink

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The issue with weekends are possessions on the BML and a lack of capacity and that's why times keep changing. For example next weekend there is a 2 track possession betweeen Earlswood and Balcombe Tunnel Junction which means all services are running on the Slow Lines. Thre are 17tph booked down through Earlswood in the WTT on the Slow and Fast lines, putting these all on the Slow lines is impossible with the 4 minute stopping headway in the down direction and even if you remove 2tph to knick it down to 15tph, with the 4 minute stopping headway, there is no capacity for trains to call at Earlswood and Salfords. The timetable as it is next Saturday is already very much pushing the bounds of what is possible. I appreciate that its frustrating for Earlswood and Salfords passengers, but ultimately there are always winners and losers duing timetbales around engineering works and sadly Earlswood and Salfords are losers. If you did add the calls in, you would ultimately have to remove another 2tph, likely 2tph from Victoria to Brighton which services will carry a far higher custom and number of passengers than any passengers coming from Earlswood and Salfords would. Its a frustrating situation, but engineering works massively reduce capacity, and then current timetbale for next saturday is already borderline impossible as it is, without trains stopping at Earlswood and Salfords as an example.

Thing is last Saturday they ran an hourly service to Earlswood and Salfords with the same possession so why not this weekend. GWR are running through which is taking a path that could have been used for these stations. The 9Jxx could easily have picked up alternate calls without compromising throughput as the 1Zxx following them are booked via the QL at Earlswood.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Thing is last Saturday they ran an hourly service to Earlswood and Salfords with the same possession so why not this weekend. GWR are running through which is taking a path that could have been used for these stations. The 9Jxx could easily have picked up alternate calls without compromising throughput as the 1Zxx following them are booked via the QL at Earlswood.

Because it wasn't the same possession last weekend. There was SLW going on all weekend between Gatwick Airport and Three Bridges meaning there were only 8tph running between Earlswood and Gatwick Airport so plenty of space for trains to stop at Earlswood. Next Saturday there are 15tph, a rather different story meaning there is no capacity for trains to stop at Earlswood and Salfords. And this Saturday, again GWR are running and cutting them back to Redhill is not a vaible option, as GWR are very very protective of their 1tph service through to Gatwick Airport.

Cutting GWR back to Redhill is a very contentious topic, and not one GWR are particularly fond of, which is why it rarely happens.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Because it wasn't the same possession last weekend. There was SLW going on all weekend between Gatwick Airport and Three Bridges meaning there were only 8tph running between Earlswood and Gatwick Airport so plenty of space for trains to stop at Earlswood. Next Saturday there are 15tph, a rather different story meaning there is no capacity for trains to stop at Earlswood and Salfords. And this Saturday, again GWR are running and cutting them back to Redhill is not a vaible option, as GWR are very very protective of their 1tph service through to Gatwick Airport.

Cutting GWR back to Redhill is a very contentious topic, and not one GWR are particularly fond of, which is why it rarely happens.

OK hadn't realised it was SLW south of GTW. That said govt run things now and TOCs aren't entitled to be precious about particular service groups it should be delivering the best service possible for all passengers and minimising the use of polluting rail replacement buses.

Not as if November is that busy at Gatwick either even on a normal year.

The other thing about Earlswood particularly is that it already gets wiped out on four weekends a year when Redhill has its foul abnormals and then if there are additional renewal abnormals that adds to the tally.

Yes I have a self interest of course but I do hope GBR come at this a different way in future so they are built into Rules of the Route and the whoever's contracted to run the service doesn't have to get involved in the politics of it.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

OK hadn't realised it was SLW south of GTW. That said govt run things now and TOCs aren't entitled to be precious about particular service groups it should be delivering the best service possible for all passengers and minimising the use of polluting rail replacement buses.

Not as if November is that busy at Gatwick either even on a normal year.

The other thing about Earlswood particularly is that it already gets wiped out on four weekends a year when Redhill has its foul abnormals and then if there are additional renewal abnormals that adds to the tally.

Yes I have a self interest of course but I do hope GBR come at this a different way in future so they are built into Rules of the Route and the whoever's contracted to run the service doesn't have to get involved in the politics of it.

Umm unless the Network Code changes, the DfT and government have utterly no control as to whether certain service groups during an STP Informed traveller week during engineering works can be withdrawn or not. Its completely down to NR and the TOCs negotiating. And too be honest, I don't see this changing that much as changing the Network Code is like trying to get Jeremy Corbyn to join the Conservative Party.

Edit: The DfT as well just won't have the time or resources to be looking at what is going every weekend during engineering works in regards to service groups.

 

[Horizon22]

What seems to be very frustrating about any engineering works in the Redhill/Earlswood area is that it comes with "service disruption" because for whatever reason, the amended timetable never seems to work in practice and causes delays. This to me seems like poor planning if the STP plan is bid and ultimately doesn't work.

Removing a service from stations when there is a two-track railway is not unheard of in other locations although obviously inconvenient.