Thameslink driver refuses to move train 16/11

[DJ_K666]

Good on the driver. If he gets a please explain the answer should be just 6 words: Passengers over line. Unsafe to dispatch.

I'm a bus driver and I've had our equivalent of a PTI (PBI?)

I was literally about to move away from a stop when an elderly gentleman ran across the road behind me, tripped over and fell into the gap* between the kerb and the bus and was injured. If I'd departed as normal I'd have killed him in a particularly nasty way, (think of a lengthways pair of scissors) but he was really lucky I glanced into my nearside mirror as were supposed to do at that moment and saw him fall. Obviously I cancelled the indicator, pulled on the handbrake and switched the engine off.

It's exactly the same with us, if people are standing too close we don't move. We don't want that on our consciences any more than a train driver does so I fully understand the driver's refusal to move.


*the stop I was at was at, if you know the Brighton area, was Hove Town Hall eastbound which is virtually impossible to pull into in a straight line due to built out chicanes either end

 

[Sleepy]

Good example tonight 2R68 2227 Kings Cross to Royston delayed 8 minutes at Potters Bar due to drunk hanging onto train.

 

[Travelmonkey]

This has its own thread in Traction & Rolling Stock https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-reverse-configuration-at-kings-cross.257877/

I'll look into it but it still is a good point of note for this particular debate as it proves it only takes 1 to stop a safe train dispatch so a rammed Farringdon is of course gonna add onto risks,

 

[whoosh]

....delays of this type would usually result from someone deliberately standing far too close to a train that had closed its doors before they arrived, and perhaps even touching the train and refusing the move (as I can personally vouch for having witnessed before in the TL core!).

Yes, I've had that at London Bridge (another very busy platform, and one which doesn't always have staff present). Someone with their finger on the door open button, and refusing to let go. The standoff lasted a minute and twenty seconds before they finally gave up - which is quite a long time really.
There was an incident at Hayes & Harlington where the driver thought that a late runner was pushing the door open button, but had in fact caught their hand in the door, and started to depart causing a 'trap and drag' incident. I think the driver got a suspended prison sentence and certainly lost their job.
This, and lives, and serious injuries, are what are at stake in such circumstances of course. I'm pleased that some like @Enthusiast above recognise this fact.

 

[DNCharingX]

Indeed. Platform staff berating drivers over their decision not to dispatch is likely to lead to a fairly swift “I no longer feel fit to drive based on the way I’ve just been spoken to” call to control, and all the associated fallout. I’d never say never, but it very rarely happens.

Hence I would take much of that aspect of the OP with a large pinch of salt.

Thanks for the responses from all. I apologise for the animosity in this post.

Original text

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Excuse the 180 on the purpose of this thread. I wanted to comment a little. It could be that I'm not particularly aware of the "other side of the coin" so to speak, but...

Some drivers seem to think they are omnipotent or something! In one instance I was threatened that they'd refuse to take the train, just for doing my job. Guess who's side they'll see in a Please Explain. Imagine if I had the gall to refuse to dispatch!!

Another one I don't understand is refusal to take the service (and thus cancellation) due to faulty cab air-con. It feels somewhat like an insult to those on the ground who have to weather sun, wind, storm (or maybe a combination of!) for hours. Maybe this is something you'll only understand in a driver's shoes. I wouldn't know, and, unfortunately, when an effort is made to "know", be prepared to be told something to the effect of "go away, let me get on with my job" - so...

I suppose that's where this forum comes in, bridging the gap of perspective, when everyone has time to spare.

 

[whoosh]

Excuse the 180 on the purpose of this thread. I wanted to comment a little. It could be that I'm not particularly aware of the "other side of the coin" so to speak, but...

Some drivers seem to think they are omnipotent or something! In one instance I was threatened that they'd refuse to take the train, just for doing my job. Guess who's side they'll see in a Please Explain. Imagine if I had the gall to refuse to dispatch!!

Another one I don't understand is refusal to take the service (and thus cancellation) due to faulty cab air-con. It feels somewhat like an insult to those on the ground who have to weather sun, wind, storm (or maybe a combination of!) for hours. Maybe this is something you'll only understand in a driver's shoes. I wouldn't know, and, unfortunately, when an effort is made to "know", be prepared to be told something to the effect of "go away, let me get on with my job" - so...

I suppose that's where this forum comes in, bridging the gap of perspective, when everyone has time to spare.

I have taken a train out of service for no air con before. It was like a hairdryer blowing on me, but the switch was in cooling. This was after fifteen minutes of setting the cab up, so had given it a chance to sort itself out.
Turned out it had been booked as faulty earlier in the day by another driver, but wasn't fixed, and they just thought they'd try their arm at running it in service later on anyway!

That's what we've been up against sometimes!

By the way, being in a cab that's too hot - have you ever sat in a greenhouse on a hot sunny day? And then kept your alertness levels up?

Probably not.
That's what it's like.

 

[bramling]

Excuse the 180 on the purpose of this thread. I wanted to comment a little. It could be that I'm not particularly aware of the "other side of the coin" so to speak, but...

Some drivers seem to think they are omnipotent or something! In one instance I was threatened that they'd refuse to take the train, just for doing my job. Guess who's side they'll see in a Please Explain. Imagine if I had the gall to refuse to dispatch!!

Another one I don't understand is refusal to take the service (and thus cancellation) due to faulty cab air-con. It feels somewhat like an insult to those on the ground who have to weather sun, wind, storm (or maybe a combination of!) for hours. Maybe this is something you'll only understand in a driver's shoes. I wouldn't know, and, unfortunately, when an effort is made to "know", be prepared to be told something to the effect of "go away, let me get on with my job" - so...

I suppose that's where this forum comes in, bridging the gap of perspective, when everyone has time to spare.

In terms of cab air conditioning, if it’s not working then it is likely - on hot days - to affect the driver’s concentration. Do passengers really want to be on a train driven by someone whose concentration is adversely affected in this way? As an aside, on some trains it can also cause issues at speed if the driver has to have their window open, due to noise drowning out sounds and tones heard in the cab.

Yes I’m sure there are drivers who use defective cab air con as a way of getting out of work, however in the vast majority of cases it will be because the driver is genuinely concerned about the effect it will have on their performance. Remember that drivers are expected to perform to 100.0% levels of accuracy.

 

[Krokodil]

Think these types of delays might be a little more frequent should Minimum Service Levels (MSL) be introduced on strike days. Unless TOCs are going to employ crowd control measures onto platforms. The government have been warned that MSL are unsafe.

Luckily MSL is optional and TOCs can just tell the government that they can't safely do it, should they choose.

I've held a train for 10mins myself before due to people on the platform who kept banging on the window to their mates inside.

I've had security guards manhandle someone away from a train on one occasion.

I'm not dispatching from the next stop until everybody is completely off the platform

I can think of a narrow platform with the entrance at one end where I do that every time I work there on a Saturday night.

Yes, I've had that at London Bridge (another very busy platform, and one which doesn't always have staff present). Someone with their finger on the door open button, and refusing to let go. The standoff lasted a minute and twenty seconds before they finally gave up - which is quite a long time really.

When off-duty I intervened when a passenger ran up at the last minute and attempted to board a Pendo that had been given the second tip (so movement imminent and no quick way of stopping it). The bloke decided that rather than stand back as the dispatcher was asking him to, he instead would rebuke the dispatcher for his slightly raised voice - still standing close to the edge. My voice was more than slightly raised when I yelled "do as you're told and stand back" at him. Achieved the desired outcome.

There was an incident at Hayes & Harlington where the driver thought that a late runner was pushing the door open button, but had in fact caught their hand in the door, and started to depart causing a 'trap and drag' incident. I think the driver got a suspended prison sentence and certainly lost their job.

Wasn't there a mobile phone involved in that incident? Pretty sure that was a major factor in the case against the driver.

 

[whoosh]

In terms of cab air conditioning, if it’s not working then it is likely - on hot days - to affect the driver’s concentration. Do passengers really want to be on a train driven by someone whose concentration is adversely affected in this way? As an aside, on some trains it can also cause issues at speed if the driver has to have their window open, due to noise drowning out sounds and tones heard in the cab.

Yes I’m sure there are drivers who use defective cab air con as a way of getting out of work, however in the vast majority of cases it will be because the driver is genuinely concerned about the effect it will have on their performance. Remember that drivers are expected to perform to 100.0% levels of accuracy.

I have known drivers open both cab doors and drive at a lower speed (so the wind noise isn't too loud), just to keep the service running - they would've been within their rights to have cancelled and taken the unit out of service. Opening cab doors whilst the train is in motion isn't possible on Thameslink trains so isn't an option, but happened at my previous TOC.

I've never heard (even in messroom gossip) over many years, of anyone purposely failing a train unnecessarily. Not just for air con, but anything.

That's not to say it's never happened, but just if it has, then it's rare enough that I've never even heard a tale of it - a first hand, second hand, or third hand account.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Nov 2023 ==

Wasn't there a mobile phone involved in that incident? Pretty sure that was a major factor in the case against the driver.

Not sure without looking it up. The learning point for me was that someone with their hand stuck can look like they are pressing a button, and that therefore, you can't assume someone looks like they are pressing a button - they might have their hand stuck, so don't move the train.

 

[tl700]

Being a TL driver and a DI (Driver Instructor) who signs ETCS/ATO and drives this route every working day I'm in a position to comment with authority.

Firstly, I'd find it hard to believe that the platform staff would actually argue with the driver as they fully understand all the implications that would be at play.

The driver was 100% correct here, if in doubt don't move.

The platform at Farringdon is exceptionally narrow, always testing and ultimately if any driver believes it is unsafe to move, he won't regardless of any delays at any station.

Some (a minority) of the responses on here are just plain ignorant with people incorrectly speculating about things and thus reaching a conclusion that is nowhere close to reality.

As for what TL Control would have thought well I can tell you from regular experience that they would suck it up without a problem. The fact that the OP seemed to think otherwise is ignorant.

We don't "wing it", we have high standards and safety is paramount and just wish that passengers would give us a little more room by keeping behind the yellow line at any station so we have a clear view of the despatch corridor.

Another thing we have a regular problem with is passengers keeping their finger on the door open button once we have interlock and are ready to leave. The doors will not miraculously open and we will wait until they have moved away.

Anyhow, full marks to the driver here, he did the right thing and any potential incident was avoided

Edit : If the actual driver of this service is reading this, I'm sorry that your professionalism has been questioned on an internet forum by a small minority but am heartened that the overwhelming majority support your decision and so would your colleagues

 

[brasstooth]

Witnessed the most bizarre incident at Farringdon yesterday evening, which involved GTR platform staff arguing with a driver.

At approximately 17:00, a Down Thameslink train formed of a 12-car Class 700 arrived, being a narrow platform and peak hour it was obviously very busy but nothing unusual for that time of day.

The driver refused to move the train on the grounds that too many people are over the yellow line and it's unsafe to self dispatch, he wouldn't depart until after all passengers have moved back.

Around 10 minutes (yes - 10 minutes!) of sitting idle in the platform, the station staff approached the cab and knocked on the door and began arguing with the driver.

The conversation went along these lines:

"What do you expect us to do? There's two of us and 24 sets of doors - we can't be everywhere at once!"

"The longer you stay here and refuse to move, the more overcrowded it gets. You're just delaying the service."

"Have you seen the Underground platforms? They're worse than us - yet they're self dispatching every minute of the day!"

Despite all these valid points by the platform staff, the driver still refused to move the train, causing an eventual 15 minute delay and backlog in the Thameslink core.

I was so impressed by the logic and rationale of the platform staff, I tapped him on the shoulder and congratulated him on using his common sense, unlike the driver.

Three Bridges ROC and GTR Control must have had a field day with that driver for shutting down the Thameslink Core for quarter of an hour in peak hour. I'd love to read his 'Please Explain' letter...

I'd just like to take a second opportunity to say Well Done to Farringdon platform staff.

If that was me. . After the interaction with clueless platform staff not clearing the PTI and then talking to me in that fashion, I would have turned the train off reported the platform staff, refused to move the train, and male sure that management brought a new driver that hopefully wouldn't be abused by a member of staff who doesn't know driver rules. . That would take about 2 hours

 

[800 Driver]

The driver is 100% correct in this situation. If GTR have not provided enough platform staff to ensure a safe departure then that's their fault. If platform staff said to me that 'they do it on the underground' I'd have keyed out and safe stopped, as we have totally different rule books. Remember it's the driver (if they are incharge of dispatch) that will be in court and have their liberty at risk if they mess up.

 

[Wolfie]

The union there secured an excellent expert witness and an acquittal was the only just outcome. I agree that case would raise my hairs a lot more if I was a guard; it was a borderline vexatious prosecution with a low prospect of a conviction. The guard there did nothing wrong and was entirely conscientious.

If that incident was as you describe it, and to be very clear l have no reason to doubt you, the prosecution almost snacks of prosecutors wanting to understand the envelope of the law. Awful for the guard involved though.

 

[800 Driver]

Witnessed the most bizarre incident at Farringdon yesterday evening, which involved GTR platform staff arguing with a driver.

At approximately 17:00, a Down Thameslink train formed of a 12-car Class 700 arrived, being a narrow platform and peak hour it was obviously very busy but nothing unusual for that time of day.

The driver refused to move the train on the grounds that too many people are over the yellow line and it's unsafe to self dispatch, he wouldn't depart until after all passengers have moved back.

Around 10 minutes (yes - 10 minutes!) of sitting idle in the platform, the station staff approached the cab and knocked on the door and began arguing with the driver.

The conversation went along these lines:

"What do you expect us to do? There's two of us and 24 sets of doors - we can't be everywhere at once!"

"The longer you stay here and refuse to move, the more overcrowded it gets. You're just delaying the service."

"Have you seen the Underground platforms? They're worse than us - yet they're self dispatching every minute of the day!"

Despite all these valid points by the platform staff, the driver still refused to move the train, causing an eventual 15 minute delay and backlog in the Thameslink core.

I was so impressed by the logic and rationale of the platform staff, I tapped him on the shoulder and congratulated him on using his common sense, unlike the driver.

Three Bridges ROC and GTR Control must have had a field day with that driver for shutting down the Thameslink Core for quarter of an hour in peak hour. I'd love to read his 'Please Explain' letter...

I'd just like to take a second opportunity to say Well Done to Farringdon platform staff.

I hope you never get a job on the railway. You'll end up killing someone.

 

[Wolfie]

Think these types of delays might be a little more frequent should Minimum Service Levels (MSL) be introduced on strike days. Unless TOCs are going to employ crowd control measures onto platforms. The government have been warned that MSL are unsafe.

DOO dispatch can be a tough call. I go with once I've got interlock and I've observed the PTI to be clear, I can take power. If anyone then decides to come into contact with (or very close to) the train, then that's on them. It's usually passengers who think they can stop a train that's just moving off by pressing the door open buttons. (I just don't understand where they get this idea from. I can't think of any other means of transportation where you'd be able to stop it by pressing an external button once it is on the move)

There's a lot more that could be done in terms of passenger education. Lots of trains/platforms have PIS/Advertising screens capable of displaying video. Whilst a few may not pay any attention, even some education is better than none.

Interesting and l suspect that you are correct about the impact of MSLs. I also suspect that staff will be rigid in safe train capacities too.

 

[Edsmith]

I'm not sure how anybody can say that the driver was 100% right or wrong unless they were actually there. I guess we'll never know the full story but I've travelled through Farringdon on numerous occasions and yes the platforms are narrow and they can get busy but I've never witnessed any particular problems and similar conditions prevail elsewhere during the rush hour. Around 24tph pass through there every day seemingly without problems but that's not to say this driver was wrong, maybe there were some exceptional circumstances in this instance?

 

[Bantamzen]

I'm not sure how anybody can say that the driver was 100% right or wrong unless they were actually there. I guess we'll never know the full story but I've travelled through Farringdon on numerous occasions and yes the platforms are narrow and they can get busy but I've never witnessed any particular problems and similar conditions prevail elsewhere during the rush hour. Around 24tph pass through there every day seemingly without problems but that's not to say this driver was wrong, maybe there were some exceptional circumstances in this instance?

Is it possible that they were short staffed that day, and struggling to deal with passenger numbers (I've never used this station so don't know what staffing levels are like)? Perhaps in a situation where the platform staff were struggling, the driver might have got onto the platform to add their voice to inform the passengers that the train wouldn't be moving until they were all a safe distance back?

 

[Shadow Cat]

One member of staff takes control the front 6 coaches

One member of staff takes control of the rear 6 coaches

Should find after a couple times people take notice the trains not leaving and stand behind the yellow line. Might even be lucky and get help from passagers.

I have told people to move back, they listened and even got a nod from the platform staff

And after a few attempts of clearing the train for dispatch still fails then this sounds more of an over crowding or even Station Manager problem

------

Being rude towards the driver does nothing to help. I dont work in the rail industry but if someone told me to do something I felt unsafe on a forklift, I'd tell them [where to go]. Because have a guess who would be the one getting fired if something went wrong

 

[43066]

Is it possible that they were short staffed that day, and struggling to deal with passenger numbers (I've never used this station so don't know what staffing levels are like)? Perhaps in a situation where the platform staff were struggling, the driver might have got onto the platform to add their voice to inform the passengers that the train wouldn't be moving until they were all a safe distance back?

No. That would just create more delay (the driver will need to key off, contact signaller etc.) and adds the risk of the driver getting embroiled in a confrontation or being assaulted, which then means the train will be stranded and the core blocked. Platform staff have access to an external PA system and appropriate training, drivers do not.

If crowding is such that trains cannot be dispatched safely, or insufficient staff are present, the next step would be to close or restrict access to the station (as LU do).

The much more likely scenario of one idiot holding doors/touching the train to prevent it from leaving will usually result in significant “peer pressure” from other passengers (especially if appropriate announcements are made) and they will stop doing it after a few moments.

 

[Krokodil]

I'm not sure how anybody can say that the driver was 100% right or wrong unless they were actually there.

We can say that refusing to move a train if one deems it unsafe to do so is always the right answer.

 

[Edsmith]

No. That would just create more delay (the driver will need to key off, contact signaller etc.) and adds the risk of the driver getting embroiled in a confrontation or being assaulted, which then means the train will be stranded and the core blocked. Platform staff have access to an external PA system and appropriate training, drivers do not.

If crowding is such that trains cannot be dispatched safely, or insufficient staff are present, the next step would be to close or restrict access to the station (as LU do).

The much more likely scenario of one idiot holding doors/touching the train to prevent it from leaving will usually result in significant “peer pressure” from other passengers (especially if appropriate announcements are made) and they will stop doing it after a few moments.

Might help in a situation like that if the driver could make an external announcement like they can on trams? Something like "this is the driver speaking, I cannot move this train until everybody is safely behind the yellow line' might be more effective than platform staff trying to explain things?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Nov 2023 ==

We can say that refusing to move a train if one deems it unsafe to do so is always the right answer.

It's just one person's opinion, presumably the driver of the previous train didn't deem it unsafe?

 

[philthetube]

Thinking about S stock, for example, the train seems to move as soon as the last door clunks shut. As you say, if they adopted the National Rail approach, they would have to reduce the frequency along the busiest sections because you simply wouldn't be able to get the trains in and out fast enough. Always amazes me the speed at which Victoria line hurtle into platforms with people barely a foot away.

There has never been a trap and drag incident with S stock, the sensitive edge tech has prevented it, as far as I am aware all passenger "PTI" injuries would have happened using the mainline working system.

 

[43066]

Might help in a situation like that if the driver could make an external announcement like they can on trams? Something like "this is the driver speaking, I cannot move this train until everybody is safely behind the yellow line' might be more effective than platform staff trying to explain things?

Difficult to see what that would add at a station like Farringdon with platform staff (with much better visibility of the situation than a driver) and a PA system. The platform crowd control aspect really needs to be done by them. If that has gone wrong (and it very rarely does), there’s a bigger problem.

It's just one person's opinion, presumably the driver of the previous train didn't deem it unsafe?

That isn’t really relevant, as they wouldn’t have faced exactly the same scenario. A crowded platform with hundreds of people on it is a dynamic situation which can change in an instant; whether a that’s a sudden surge in crowding, or someone appearing on the platform who tries to prevent a train leaving.

If a driver (or anyone else with dispatch responsibility) considers something unsafe, nobody else is ever going to be in a position to tell them they’re “wrong”.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

It's just one person's opinion, presumably the driver of the previous train didn't deem it unsafe?

The previous train (for Brighton) departed on time. It wouldn't have helped matters that the affected train (also for Brighton) was running out of sequence and already some 12 minutes down on arrival at Farringdon, a station where the narrow platforms can rapidly fill up with intending passengers during the midweek evening peak, and very possibly all waiting for trains to destinations other than Brighton, and so still stood on platform 3.

 

[Krokodil]

It's just one person's opinion,

The driver is a professional and if in their professional judgement they deem it unsafe then no man on earth should overrule them. If management really disagree then they can find a different driver, one prepared to move it.

presumably the driver of the previous train didn't deem it unsafe?

Presumably the platform wasn't in the same state when the previous train went through.

There has never been a trap and drag incident with S stock, the sensitive edge tech has prevented it, as far as I am aware all passenger "PTI" injuries would have happened using the mainline working system.

Sensitive edges wouldn't have detected someone leaning against the side, as per James Street.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Maybe Farringdon station is now not fit for purpose with the increase in passenger numbers - especially as it now has to deal with 3 main flows of passengers (i.e. TL, LUL and Lizzy line)

 

[43066]

Maybe Farringdon station is now not fit for purpose with the increase in passenger numbers - especially as it now has to deal with 3 main flows of passengers (i.e. TL, LUL and Lizzy line)

Given the extraordinary number of train movements through the station (two intensive metro cores and LU), I do wonder how easy it would be to manage dangerous overcrowding levels. Presumably TfL and GTR would have to coordinate periods of non-stopping.

Not something that has been a concern in recent years, but will likely become an issue going forward, especially with the EL exceeding all forecasts.

 

[al78]

The unanimous verdict after just a few hours' deliberation was that the guard was guilty of manslaughter by gross negligence. The chronology is as follows:

In the trial, the guard admitted he was frustrated with the disorderly conduct displayed by passengers on the train (which might be typical of a Liverpool night out). The driver, who was called as a witness, said it was "rowdy". The deceased had previously alighted at Meols and then run back onto the train, after being told by her friends it was the wrong stop. The guard actually got out of his cab there and walked along the platform to intervene personally with this passenger. Later, at James Street, he observed the same passenger leave the train, and then return to it. He delayed the departure momentarily for this reason. She then leaned on the train to say goodbye to a friend in the window, which threatened to make the train even more delayed than it was. At this time the platform is deserted except for her. The guard is seen to clearly look directly at the woman, and then gives the departure signal while she is in contact with the train. The train departs, and she is seen to still be in contact with the train, at which point the guard waves her - and possibly also shouts - to move away. The guard does not give the stop signal - one on the buzzer - at this time. The woman then slips during contact with the train is falls under it, where she suffered an unmentionable injury which meant she was clearly immediately deceased. It is only when she falls that the guard gives the signal to stop.

The judge's sentencing remarks concluded:

"In my judgment, the CCTV footage is unequivocal, Georgia Varley was not moving away and she was not showing any sign of moving away.

"She only moved when the movement of the train deprived her of support and caused her to lose balance and fall to her death.

"I am satisfied that you merely hoped and assumed she would get out of the way when the train began to move, and on that wholly inadequate basis you took a terrible risk."

The original thread is here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/merseyrail-guard-on-trial.74367/ - as a content warning I should say there are some predictably appalling attitudes to the deceased, even on the first page, and some from people who work in safety critical roles on the railway.

Thank you. I have had a quick look at the first three pages and I think I see what you mean, but in my view, whilst I don't agree fully with the victim blaming, I can understand why people were posting like that so I don't find it appalling. I have seen it time and time again where someone has come a cropper because they acted carelessly or irresponsibly, and any attempt to point out the victim may have contributed in some way to their demise is met with the victim blaming card, as though just because someone is vulnerable means they cannot be held to account for anything. The way I look at it is to think about driving a motor vehicle. It doesn't matter how careless someone acts in my vicinity, it is my duty to drive in a way that minimises the possibility of harming them, even though in an ideal world people should have at least some duty of care to themselves.

 

[74A]

Interesting and l suspect that you are correct about the impact of MSLs. I also suspect that staff will be rigid in safe train capacities too.

There are no safe train capacities. If you can shut the doors it's safe

 

[dk1]

There are no safe train capacities. If you can shut the doors it's safe

Exactly. Breathe in everybody so we can shut them up & get going.