Thameslink disruption

[leshuttle]

Traveling from Petts Wood to Kentish Town at peak time I normally travel via Thameslink to avoid the tube - avoiding the hassle of changes, crowds and added cost. I use Pay as you go Oyster as my commute isn't daily. This costs £4.90 one way. If the Thameslink core is disrupted, as it was yesterday, then where do I stand in terms of a refund since I'd to pay extra to use an alternative route which took longer thus delaying my arrival time at work 30 minutes plus.

 

[rdwarr]

It looks as though the fastest alternative route is train to Charing Cross then tube to Kentish Town. This takes about the same time as the Thameslink route si it may be hard to claim compensatin on the basis of delay.

 

[Hadders]

But if the OP incurred additional cost in taking an alternative route then can they get the difference refunded? If so from whom should the refund be sought - Oyster helpline or GTR?

Did GTR have ticket acceptance with LU/TfL yesterday?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

As the journey is within Oyster PAYG limits and there are alternate routes to your destination, I don't think you have a case for refund. And the amount would (probably) be miniscule and not worth the effort IMHO.

And I'm sure TL/GTR will argue (quite rightly) that the disruption was out of their control.

This was a known problem since before the weekend and publicised so TL/GTR could possibly further argue that you had plenty of notice to make other travel arrangements

 

[transmanche]

As the journey is within Oyster PAYG limits and there are alternate routes to your destination, I don't think you have a case for refund. And the amount would (probably) be miniscule and not worth the effort IMHO.

I think the difference in fares is £1.60. (Travelling via Charing Cross incurs the Z1 mixed-mode 'tax').

 

[Hadders]

There is a principle here.

Say I hold a paper ticket from Hadley Wood to Elephant & Castle route: Not Underground. The intended route is to travel from St Pancras to Elephant via the Thameslink core.

Now because of the disruption I would be allowed to travel on alternative route (in this case via the Underground) at no additional charge. I don't think anyone would argue that I need to excess my ticket to a +Any Permitted ticket to be able to complete my journey.

Why should it be different with Oyster?

 

[MikeWh]

I think the difference in fares is £1.60. (Travelling via Charing Cross incurs the Z1 mixed-mode 'tax').

Correct. You could save £1.50 instead by travelling via Lewisham and Stratford to Kentish Town West. Granted it will take longer, but it's an option.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I stand to be corrected but I don't think the TOC will work on your "principles" especially if the disruption is something that is out of their control.

If you really want to take this further, I think you have to take this up with TFL as you use a PAYG Oyster. I'm sure the more knowledgeable buffs will steer you in the right direction. Is it really worth it for the sake of £1.50....especially if this was a one-off...?

 

[Hadders]

I'm not the OP but I agree that for £1.50 it's probably not worth the hassle.

However, we have had threads on here about this sort of thing during planned disruption where passengers using Oyster PAYG over alternative routes have been changed to take an alternative route.

I know there probably isn't anything that can realistically be done to reprogram Oyster for the period of disruption but anyone who wishes to claim a refund of the difference should be able to do so.

 

[Starmill]

There is a principle here.

Say I hold a paper ticket from Hadley Wood to Elephant & Castle route: Not Underground. The intended route is to travel from St Pancras to Elephant via the Thameslink core.

Now because of the disruption I would be allowed to travel on alternative route (in this case via the Underground) at no additional charge. I don't think anyone would argue that I need to excess my ticket to a +Any Permitted ticket to be able to complete my journey.

Why should it be different with Oyster?

Have you considered that one of the reasons for the introduction of smartcards was to prevent passengers from using cheaper tickets on more expensive routes, even at times of disruption.

 

[Clip]

Have you considered that one of the reasons for the introduction of smartcards was to prevent passengers from using cheaper tickets on more expensive routes, even at times of disruption.

Well that's a very cynical view.

The introduction of Smartcards is very much the opposite and cuts costs drastically - including the reduction of staff - but that's going OT.

Don't TfL refund the difference during times of disruption when using PAYG and having to go another route? MikeWh?

 

[Hadders]

Have you considered that one of the reasons for the introduction of smartcards was to prevent passengers from using cheaper tickets on more expensive routes, even at times of disruption.

I don't believe that for one moment. I think it's an unintended consequence of smartcards.

If we were starting with a blank piece of paper I'm sure our fares structure wouldn't look anything like what we have today. Thing is, we all want changes to be made and for things to be simplified but in reality it can't be done without disadvantaging a significant number of people.

Each introduction of a newer types of ticketing (eg smartcards) whilst having many advantages also has disadvantages and ends up complicating things because it isn't always compatible with what has gone before.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Have you considered that one of the reasons for the introduction of smartcards was to prevent passengers from using cheaper tickets on more expensive routes, even at times of disruption.

Considered.

Dismissed.

 

[transmanche]

If we were starting with a blank piece of paper I'm sure our fares structure wouldn't look anything like what we have today.

Indeed.

But I think the main problem in London (which this specific example falls into) is the way that mixed-mode fares are charged - especially mixed-mode fares involving Z1.

• A Z1-2 off-peak TfL fare is £2.30
• A Z1-2 off-peak NR fare is £2.10
• But a Z1-2 off-peak through fare is £3.60

OK, it's better than the old days when you just paid the sum of the two fares, but the sooner that they are merged into one fare list the better.

Although already, some TOCs charge TfL fares on some or all of their routes.

 

[Starmill]

Well that's a very cynical view.

The introduction of Smartcards is very much the opposite and cuts costs drastically - including the reduction of staff - but that's going OT.

Don't TfL refund the difference during times of disruption when using PAYG and having to go another route? MikeWh?

There's was a thread recently where someone had this issue. Forum consensus was no, because of this:

When we don't refund for service delays
You can't get a service delay refund for planned service changes and engineering work, if you made an alternative journey or if your journey was delayed for a reason outside our control, like:

A security alert
A customer incident, for example, a person ill on a train
Adverse weather conditions
If you have a free travel concession, you can't apply for a service delay refund.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/replacements-and-refunds/service-delay-refunds?intcmp=16681

 

[Chrisgr31]

Are TFLs Terms and Conditions relevant?

Shouldnt the OP be submitting their application to Thamelink giving details of the train they should have got, together with a print out from their Oyster card of what they actually did. Then asking Thameslink for a rufund of the difference between what they intended and what they did?

 

[bb21]

There's was a thread recently where someone had this issue. Forum consensus was no, because of this:

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/replacements-and-refunds/service-delay-refunds?intcmp=16681

I don't believe that is the correct policy to quote. A service delay refund is only applicable where the passenger has been sufficiently delayed (for a number of possible reasons, including taking an alternative route), and is seeking a refund in a similar vein to Delay Repay.

What we are looking at in this situation is a fares dispute, due to a higher fare being charged after being forced to take an alternative route. I believe that in such cases the Oyster Helpline do refund passengers the difference if past reports from forum members are anything to go by.

In fact the Oyster Helpline use a lot of discretion in these cases ime. Only recently I had a refund for a journey Stratford LU - [LOROL NLL/WLL] - Clapham Junction (pink validator) - [SWT] - Feltham for the difference between a Zones 1-6 and a Zones 2-6 fare despite there not being a fare avoiding Zone 1 for this journey with a touch on the pink validator at CLJ (only at Richmond if travelling NLL). The operator accepted that it was a perfectly reasonable journey to do and authorised the refund after I explained my route.