Thameslink core problems

[fusionblue]

Think 377513 is in City Thameslink a bit stuck...

I was on the 319 immediately behind it (i actually missed that 377!), stuck in the snow hill tunnel for an hour. We could actually hear the announcements from City Thameslink but couldn't proceed any further because of the 377 ahead.

At some point during the hour City Thameslink was closed.

Eventually we reversed back into P3 at Farringdon and dumped everyone off there to go an alternate route. Took me 2 hours to get home.

Props to the driver though, we heard him talking to the signaller to get permission to reverse which he did and then went on the tannoy and walked through the train - the entire 1st class (declassified) cabin laughed and shouted "we heard you!" and he just laughed, apologised, laughed some more and walked on. Nothing wrong with a sense of humour

 

[DelayRepay]

Arrived at Blackfriars at 19:05 with no prior awareness of this. Nothing on display downstairs in the north ticket hall that I saw - admittedly I didn't look at the PIS screens as they're normally showing northbound train info adjacent to the southbound platform and vice-versa. No printed notices or staff on hand.

Well I arrived at City at about 6pm to find chaos. The station was closed, there were plenty of staff on duty who were advising people for Northbound services to go to St Pancras. I walked up to Farringdon to get the tube, and at Farringdon I spoke to another member of Thameslink staff to check trains were running from St Pancras. He said they were. Another passenger then interrupted and said he'd heard the trains were only running from Kentish Town. The staff member said this was incorrect and they were running from St Pancras.

On arrival at St Pancras the shutters were down and the station closed. Staff advising people to go to Kentish Town but warning trains would be very busy as there were only 4 services an hour, all stations to Bedford.

I decided to go via Kings Cross to Hatfield instead and have arrived home over two hours later than normal (although 15 minutes of the delay was because I called in at the chippy on the way home!).

At the same time as I was being told to go to St Pancras, the Twitter team were Tweeting that there were no services at St Pancras. Sadly my phone battery was flat so Twitter was no help today. So yet again staff on the ground have not been provided with the correct information leading to additional inconvenience and delays to customers. The operator of these trains may have changed, but they are still just as bad at dealing with problems.

Realistically, is this likely to be fixed in the morning or should I go straight to Hatfield?

 

[Bishopstone]

A problem such as this causes delays obviously. How on earth can it be expected that 24 tph will be able to pass through the core of the system once the refurbishment programme is completed? They will never be able to maintain that volume of traffic hour after hour and day after day. This incident shows how easily things will cause a disintegration of the route.

Indeed. All this money spent, and the core will still be two track.

What is needed is an ability to split the service north/south when the core goes into meltdown. At present - and in future - such capacity appears to consist of two shared bay platforms at Blackfriars, and two bi-directional platforms at St Pancras low level.

Basically: 'Please go away and use Southern/EMT.'

Except that post-2018, services through the core will form a higher percentage of the whole to places such as East Croydon and Gatwick - and GN destinations - so withdrawal of 90% of the Thameslink capacity will have more profound consequences.

Dare I ask... will the new Thameslink platforms at London Bridge be signalled to handle swift reversals as a matter of routine?

 

[DelayRepay]

From the Brighton and Hove News:

A Brighton commuter has told of the shocking moment when a train hit dangling cables at City Thameslink, which has closed part of the line this evening.

Garry Parker was waiting on the platform at the central London station when a train took down the wires, which were left dangling.

Then when the next train came into the station, it hit the cables resulting in a big bang.

He said: “It was shocking. The cables were just ripped off and dangling down waiting to brush the next train. Which they did. Big Bang.

“I was waiting for the 4:30pm Brighton train at City Thameslink, when a train was moving quite slowly south bound on the north bound track.

“As the train set off, the first pantograph struck the roof (or something else) followed by a loud bang and bright flash.

“The train stopped, lowered its pantograph (the second one was in front me and I saw it drop), but the front one didn’t lower all the way.

“The train pulled away again and started to move to the other line, when the pantograph caught the overhead cables, hooked them and pulled them down causing a larger “explosion” that made everyone at the station jump and pause for breath.

“Oblivious to all this, the train carried on and the live cables were left hanging between the two track lines.

“Staff at the station were trying to see what the damage was and to get messages out to stop any trains coming down.

“Unfortunately a message didn’t get out in time and a north bound train got hit by the cables in a couple of places with each strike causing short circuit explosions. The train stopped straight away and thankfully no one seemed to get hurt.

 

[Abpj17]

It's so bad, I'm actually looking forward to travelling on Virgin this week (long weekend).

Monday I was on a train caught up behind the 'fatality' - fair enough, that's not NR/GTR fault. But... the train I was on terminated at Kentish Town (cue mass shuffle to the northern line) because of power problems (I'm assuming it wouldn't have been able to switch).

Today's adventures - no announcements on DLR or Tube. Arrived at Blackfriars (north) around 6 - packed concourse. The displays were giving confusing and conflicting messages, no staff to be seen. Apparently the 18.?08 was due at 18.12 so trudged up to platforms. Still no staff apart from what looked like 3 south-easterns hiding as far away from the Thameslink platform as possible and mass on SE passengers wanting a Ramsgate train (Tx trains had filled up the SE bays).

Train pulled in at 18:12, driver was very bemused, no relevant announcements to passengers. With a bit of effort, passengers told to head to St Pancras where there were two trains an hour. [For those who thought the shutters were down; the trick is that you had to go to the EML/upper platforms, not the GTR lower platforms)]. I grabbed the circle around from Blackfriars to Kings X - along with a GTR driver (who I think could helpfully then take a train out of St P just after 7).

Arriving at EML platforms, tons of us managed to squeeze on the 19:00 to Corby (yay - far too many first class carriages with no announcements about declassifying; bonus that only took 25 mins to Luton, downside is that packed and I was standing between carriages so quite a rocky ride). Train was 'closed' 10 mins before departure because it was full. And passengers were being told to go to Kentish Town (4 trains an hour, all stations) - everyone on the train dug in heels, heading to yet another station for a train taking three times as long was not a popular alternative!

Just before we left, another EML train was announced as calling at Luton and Bedford too. And a Tx train was announced (possibly with the driver that was on the same tube as me) - but we didn't see it...it might have been a joke ...

There was however a humble/gracious EML announcer on the Corby train and a blonde girl staff member at Luton platform looked like she was being helpful for people asking about onwards services

Dread to think what tomorrow am will be like, can't believe it'll be fixed and trains will have got to the right places for a 'normal' morning peak.

Bishopstone/others - it used to split. The now-closed Moorgate branch was used for the northern service and Blackfriars for the south. Both are easy to reach from the City (even walking/without tube). Kings X/Kentish Town are not!

 

[HarleyDavidson]

I just don't get why our units always seem to have these problems, do the Japanese & others have such issues with what seems to be fairly regular dewirements.

 

[DelayRepay]

[For those who thought the shutters were down; the trick is that you had to go to the EML/upper platforms, not the GTR lower platforms)]. I grabbed the circle around from Blackfriars to Kings X - along with a GTR driver (who I think could helpfully then take a train out of St P just after 7).

Well the staff weren't telling people this. The Thameslink staff at St Pancras were telling people to get the tube to Kentish Town or use Great Northern and buses across. They were making it very clear that EMT were not making additional stops (and who can blame them given how full their trains must have been!).

 

[mrmatt]

I'd hope/imagine there will be some sort of alarm if the panto does not automatically raise or lower, or if there is a fault with the system... (Someone with more knowledge of the 700's can probably confirm)

If the system couldn't raise or lower it sure but what if it got itself into a condition where it did not realise it had to. I'm assuming there will be some procedural compensating control in place but if it normally just happens human nature will take over and at some point it will be overlooked.

This incident could simply be a case of the driver mistakenly thinking the sidings did indeed have ohle?

 

[Abpj17]

Well the staff weren't telling people this. The Thameslink staff at St Pancras were telling people to get the tube to Kentish Town or use Great Northern and buses across. They were making it very clear that EMT were not making additional stops (and who can blame them given how full their trains must have been!).

Well, the screens (and eventually announcements) were saying that at Blackfriars (didn't actually see any GTR staff apart from in offices/train drivers who didn't know quite what to advise).

Which is why passengers who had been to Blackfriars first were so exasperated - we were told to go to St P, and on arrival told to go to KT.

 

[C2L]

Just before we left, another EML train was announced as calling at Luton and Bedford too. And a Tx train was announced (possibly with the driver that was on the same tube as me) - but we didn't see it...it might have been a joke ...

Glad to know I wasn't the only forum member on this train! The announcement was for a fast Bedford service ran by Thameslink. They actually used some sense and used the only 12 car service going southbound at the time of the incident as I people mover.

There was however a humble/gracious EML announcer on the Corby train

I counted atleast 12 times she asked over the PA for passengers to go to Kentish town instead of being on the Corby train. Strangly I noticed not one person walk back down the platform.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well the staff weren't telling people this. The Thameslink staff at St Pancras were telling people to get the tube to Kentish Town or use Great Northern and buses across. They were making it very clear that EMT were not making additional stops (and who can blame them given how full their trains must have been!).

Some of the lower level staff were actually stating that there were problems between Flitwick and Bedford and therefore no trains were going up the MML. Real train times soon sorted out fact from fiction.

Also the open train times maps were invaluable seeing what trains were moving and going into which platforms.

 

[DelayRepay]

People on Twitter are complaining that the GoVia Thameslink mobile ap was/is saying all services are running fine. Can anyone confirm this? (I don't have the right sort of phone for this ap )

 

[Abpj17]

I counted atleast 12 times she asked over the PA for passengers to go to Kentish town instead of being on the Corby train. Strangly I noticed not one person walk back down the platform.

Some of the lower level staff were actually stating that there were problems between Flitwick and Bedford and therefore no trains were going up the MML. Real train times soon sorted out fact from fiction.

Also the open train times maps were invaluable seeing what trains were moving and going into which platforms.

Quite - there were a ton of us from Blackfriars who I think had no intention of trying our luck at the third mainline station for the evening... LBG and Twitter seem to have been giving the same advice to head to St P. (If I'd known at Monument, I'd have switched to the Northern for Kentish Town rather than head to Blackfriars, but ofc after multiple interchanges the novelty rather wears off). I didn't bother visiting the lower levels, I took the first lift and trotted along above the shops

Was also most amused at the announcement there was a small fee for wi-fi for some reason. I imagine EML probably get rather fed up of mass issues with FCC/GTR messing up their services!

From catching up on Twitter, there was also advice to use GN and then buses (but there seem to have been a lack of buses...am just grateful I didn't go that route)

Delay-repay - the app is confusing...on one screen you can see actual times/delays; a different screen just shows the timetabled information. see http://imgur.com/UCYlwN8

 

[ExRes]

This incident could simply be a case of the driver mistakenly thinking the sidings did indeed have ohle?

If that was the case then the driver should have said OHLE wrapped around his/her neck

 

[DelayRepay]

From catching up on Twitter, there was also advice to use GN and then buses (but there seem to have been a lack of buses...am just grateful I didn't go that route)

I used GN to Hatfield and then the bus over to St Albans. There was a mini-bus leaving Hatfield just as I left the station, obviously full as other people were still waiting at the bus stop. After about a 20 minute wait a coach turned up and took us to St Albans. From talking to the chap supervising the buses, it seems they had one mini bus, one coach and were also putting passengers on the local service buses. Not great but under FCC I waited over an hour for a bus at Hatfield (outside, in the snow!) so I guess this is a slight improvement!

 

[mrmatt]

The app has been showing all sorts of nonsense... Then again nre says delays of 60 mins rather than nothing through the core and even RTT isn't showing every appropriate train as cancelled. Suspect they're trying to get the short term planning services in correctly. I always find it slightly strange the service information systems struggle this much under disruption (you would think it would be a major requirement) but I guess they assume everything will run until someone tells it otherwise.

 

[DelayRepay]

If that was the case then the driver should have said OHLE wrapped around his/her neck

That is a bit extreme. I'm sure if it was their fault they're very embarrassed and will be given a good telling off.

 

[Abpj17]

Hatfield/St Albans there are local services because of the uni tho? Unfortunately I live in Leagrave - so local buses from ?Hitchin to Luton are rather rarer, and I've still have another three miles to get home on bus/train I guess the Watford-St Albans route is viable for some too.

mrmatt - and you'd expect ex-FCC/GTR staff to be experienced at handling core meltdowns by now...

 

[C2L]

I didn't bother visiting the lower levels, I took the first lift and trotted along above the shops

I like that there are other True hardy commuters that have realised when those barriers will be down and don't even bother!

From catching up on Twitter, there was also advice to use GN and then buses (but there seem to have been a lack of buses...am just grateful I didn't go that route)

Some friends of mine decided to disregard my advice and listened to the staff telling them to go to Hitchin and get the "buses we've ordered" back over to Luton.

They've now told me that they had to get a Taxi and will be reclaiming the taxi money back.

I wish them luck!

 

[ExRes]

That is a bit extreme. I'm sure if it was their fault they're very embarrassed and will be given a good telling off.

If a driver, and I underline in this case the word if, doesn't know where the OHLE starts and finishes on the route that he/she signs then they deserve a lot more than a good telling off, it's an absolutely basic piece of knowledge

 

[Abpj17]

Exactly - I think anyone who suffered through the long term closure of the core when trains all terminated at the back of St P when it was a still a bit of a building site is relatively street-smart lol; the biggest benefit is that there isn't a mass of people along the top either, much quicker to reach the trains.

On the OHLE, there is a good chance it is driver error. There is a big sign at Farringdon that (not quite literally) shouts at drivers to remind them to ensure the pantograph is down. (From that I infer it's a manual change). It's a regular occurrence for trains to be taken out of service due to 'power faults' as well - terminating at Kentish Town, when an issue has been detected which means they don't trust it to make it through the core.

 

[causton]

Hatfield/St Albans there are local services because of the uni tho? Unfortunately I live in Leagrave - so local buses from ?Hitchin to Luton are rather rarer

Every 20 minutes is "rare"? http://www.intalink.org.uk/download/10401.3/
And the only real service enhancements for term time is buses in the late evening running at an enhanced frequency, along with one local route which runs to give school bus drivers something to do in the middle of the day! Everything else runs throughout the year.

 

[mrmatt]

mrmatt - and you'd expect ex-FCC/GTR staff to be experienced at handling core meltdowns by now...

True but given they are far from the only TOC who seem to struggle with this stuff there is the possibility it is quite a hard balance to strike between getting information out to people correctly but also expediently when the landscape keeps moving.

Not saying they couldn't do better but when managing incidents people tend to get spread a little more thinly.

 

[DelayRepay]

On the OHLE, there is a good chance it is driver error. There is a big sign at Farringdon that (not quite literally) shouts at drivers to remind them to ensure the pantograph is down. (From that I infer it's a manual change). It's a regular occurrence for trains to be taken out of service due to 'power faults' as well - terminating at Kentish Town, when an issue has been detected which means they don't trust it to make it through the core.

There are also small notices on the platform at City Thameslink for the platform staff. I can't remember exactly what they say but it's something along the lines of checking the pantograph is down before dispatching southbound services.

 

[mrmatt]

If a driver, and I underline in this case the word if, doesn't know where the OHLE starts and finishes on the route that he/she signs then they deserve a lot more than a good telling off, it's an absolutely basic piece of knowledge

Perhaps I could have been more delicate in my initial wording. The gist is I can imagine in an environment like city Thameslink one might expect the ohle to be there and whilst they know its not under certain conditions they may forget.

That said to move away he must have lowered the shoes so why does the 319 not lock down the panto when on DC?

 

[Abpj17]

Every 20 minutes is "rare"? http://www.intalink.org.uk/download/10401.3/
And the only real service enhancements for term time is buses in the late evening running at an enhanced frequency, along with one local route which runs to give school bus drivers something to do in the middle of the day! Everything else runs throughout the year.

By the time you've got there from London, the frequency is 7pm, 8pm and 10pm -_-

 

[causton]

By the time you've got there from London, the frequency is 7pm, 8pm and 10pm -_-

Ah I suppose yes. Seems to be a thing that in Hertfordshire the "evening" starts at 6pm and 90% of the bus drivers go home!

 

[C2L]

There is a big sign at Farringdon that (not quite literally) shouts at drivers to remind them to ensure the pantograph is down. (From that I infer it's a manual change)

I'm hoping that if they cant fix it tonight, someone will try their best to get the transfer point changed back to Farringdon from city as it has been historically.

When the lines came down at Radlett the untangling was done over night and that meant that the fasts could be used for EMT. re wireing was then left for the next few overnight closures.

If they can sort out the wire mess tonight and they move the transfer between 3rd rail and OHLE to Farringdon hopefully we can get the core open tomorrow.

The only saving grace is that this happened at the only place on thameslink where there is both power supplies, however knowing what network rail is like I'm sure that there will be lots of red tape not allowing such a relatively simple change.

 

[jon0844]

A problem such as this causes delays obviously. How on earth can it be expected that 24 tph will be able to pass through the core of the system once the refurbishment programme is completed? They will never be able to maintain that volume of traffic hour after hour and day after day. This incident shows how easily things will cause a disintegration of the route.

I know.

Having started to travel into London on weekends from St Albans (during the work at Hatfield, it's easier to park and there are fast trains every 15 minutes) I have been using St Pancras a lot more of late, and even on a Sunday there can be loads of people about, so I have to wonder how the hell it's going to work when there's one platform for loads of different trains arriving one after another, but going to different places (so people will stand about blocking your access because they want the next train).

There also needs to be a look at how the platforms show where trains will stop. The zone signs mean sod all, so people always end up having to run down the platform when a 4 car train comes in. If that isn't fixed, expect even more problems when an 8-car comes in instead of a 12-car. People will either have to run, or else you'll just have everyone congregating near the escalators and not spreading out along the platform at all.

So, with that, and the issue of what happens when the core gets blocked, means I predict it will be a very unreliable way to travel in 2018 and beyond. It would appear to take very little to cause chaos, with huge knock-on effects for trains that will mess up the paths on the ECML. How many 700s will be able to be diverted into King's Cross for example? Or will they terminate at Finsbury Park and head back?

From catching up on Twitter, there was also advice to use GN and then buses (but there seem to have been a lack of buses...am just grateful I didn't go that route)

In many cases, you're just expected to use normal buses that run between Hatfield and St Albans stations. Of course, Uno & Arriva will need to inform drivers to accept tickets.

Well there's the problem right there. It doesn't say 'please'!

 

[SpacePhoenix]

When a train lowers its pan, is there some sort of mechanism that locks it down?

 

[westcoaster]

When a train lowers its pan, is there some sort of mechanism that locks it down?

There is but it can only be used to physically lock it ( during isolations or dragging a failed unit). When in service they are not locked down, only lowered.
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That said to move away he must have lowered the shoes so why does the 319 not lock down the panto when on DC?

Shoes are permanently lowered on 319's, only 377's go up and down.