Thameslink core problems

[Bald Rick]

The wires are down at City Thameslink, so no trains in either direction through the core for 'a while'.

 

[Class377/5]

The wires are down at City Thameslink, so no trains in either direction through the core for 'a while'.

Oops. Do we have an idea what happened?

 

[Mike395]

Oh dear - that's not good news! The Brighton mainline had enough problems as-is...

I wonder if they'll manage to fix it overnight or if it'll hang over into tomorrow's rush hour.....

Interestingly NRE is implying there isn't a complete block:

Electrical supply problems at City Thameslink are delaying trains by up to 20 minutes between London St Pancras and London Blackfriars.
There is no firm estimate yet of how long disruption will last but it is likely to continue until at least 18:00.

 

[user15681]

Think 377513 is in City Thameslink a bit stuck...

Arrived at Blackfriars only a few late because of East Croydon, but then sat at BFR for quite a while because of supply issues, then it left. 2O74 arrived at BFR and is still there I believe, with unit in front (513) stuck at City TL so I was told.

Put a spanner in the works for conductor of 1G85 from BFR I think, who had to be taxied from London Bridge.

 

[SPADTrap]

2O85 left Smithfield with a pan raised which caused OLE damage.

 

[phil beard]

A problem such as this causes delays obviously. How on earth can it be expected that 24 tph will be able to pass through the core of the system once the refurbishment programme is completed? They will never be able to maintain that volume of traffic hour after hour and day after day. This incident shows how easily things will cause a disintegration of the route.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Well what do you expect from DaFT & management who live in cloud cuckoo land, where life is idyllic and nothing ever goes wrong and everything is wonderful.

 

[n37077]

319367 at Bfr has had it's pan sawn off. There is indeed a blue 377 half in to City T. Also lights of something on the north bound platform is visible.

 

[ComUtoR]

A problem such as this causes delays obviously. How on earth can it be expected that 24 tph will be able to pass through the core of the system once the refurbishment programme is completed? They will never be able to maintain that volume of traffic hour after hour and day after day. This incident shows how easily things will cause a disintegration of the route.

http://www.therailengineer.com/2013/11/13/signalling-the-thameslink-programme/

Although the scheme had been fully developed by Network South East, technology had moved on and ridership continued to grow. Accordingly, some elements of the original scheme were revised. To meet the continuing growth, a high capacity signalling scheme was required to deliver 24tph through the core area between Kentish Town and Blackfriars, rising potentially to 30tph for an hour to support service recovery. Some novel features were included in the signalling to ensure that performance risk would be minimised in the core section. Any delays here would rapidly spread and affect the Brighton main line, East Coast main line, Midland main line and beyond

Currently, from Blackfriars onwards towards East Croydon, Thameslink services face severe bottlenecks. Between Blackfriars and Metropolitan Junction there is even a section of single line, followed by a short double track section towards London Bridge shared with 29tph serving Charing Cross. Platforms are shared at London Bridge with Charing Cross services and, at the country end, there are flat junction conflicts. Because of these capacity constraints, during peak periods most Thameslink trains are diverted via Elephant & Castle and unhelpfully don’t serve London Bridge.

Hence the 24tph Thameslink service remains an aspiration until the challenge of the capacity constraints in the vicinity of the ‘Bridge’ can be fixed. The good news is that the project team are currently preparing for Thameslink to have a dedicated double track route all the way from Blackfriars through London Bridge to Bermondsey. Thameslink will have separate platforms, the trains linking into the East Croydon route near Bermondsey where a new-grade separated junction will obviate conflicting moves. There will be various stage works through to scheme completion in 2018, with signalling controlled by workstations eventually to be located at the Three Bridges ROC (Railway Operating Centre). In 2012 Invensys Rail was awarded the contract by Network Rail for the London Bridge station area resignalling. This will include overlaying ETCS (European Train Control System) and ATO (Automatic Train Operation).

Not forgetting that the whole core is bi-directional

There is also information about Posa Signals, more information on etcs and ato as well as the reasons why 4 aspect was chosen. Its a VERY good article and well worth a cuppa and a thoughtful read.

 

[AM9]

Would it be feasible to install an unregistered catenary/rail over the DC only sidings? I know that clearance is too limited for 25kV working, but at least there would be no physical damage if a pantograph was raised inadvertently.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Or better still overhead rail!

Nice, solid, robust & won't get all tangled up with pantographs.

http://www.furrerfrey.ch/de/systeme/deckenstromschiene.html

 

[mrmatt]

Do we think this is more or less likely once the 700s come along? I understand they will automatically raise and lower the pantograph - just wondering how obvious it will be to the driver if it has got it wrong...

 

[Saint66]

Do we think this is more or less likely once the 700s come along? I understand they will automatically raise and lower the pantograph - just wondering how obvious it will be to the driver if it has got it wrong...

I'd hope/imagine there will be some sort of alarm if the panto does not automatically raise or lower, or if there is a fault with the system... (Someone with more knowledge of the 700's can probably confirm)

 

[DarloRich]

A problem such as this causes delays obviously. How on earth can it be expected that 24 tph will be able to pass through the core of the system once the refurbishment programme is completed? They will never be able to maintain that volume of traffic hour after hour and day after day. This incident shows how easily things will cause a disintegration of the route.

Is a rigid overhead conductor rail not being installed rather than traditional OHLE?

 

[Keith Jarrett]

At least two pairs of 319s into Victoria earlier this evening on Sevenoaks services (viewed from the Wetherspoons "up the escalator")

 

[FlippyFF]

Arrived at Blackfriars at 19:05 with no prior awareness of this. Nothing on display downstairs in the north ticket hall that I saw - admittedly I didn't look at the PIS screens as they're normally showing northbound train info adjacent to the southbound platform and vice-versa. No printed notices or staff on hand. Get up to platform level and first sign of something wrong wAs the two 319s in P3/4, a gaggle of chatting staff by the gateline and the departure board for P2 showing everything as cancelled. IIRC FCC would have had people in the ticket hall at the foot of the escalators telling people before they got to platform level.

Simon

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Not well handled at Blackfriars - information wise at 1710 - and bays left to SE guest appearance trains.
Trudge to Farringdon where the "Circle " was a tad busy. (understatement) 1800 EMT to Luton a bolt hole - and double back to St Albans. No chance - train mega crushed and unsurprisingly - doors failed (fitters attention to no avail) - still in platform at 1740 when I left on a welcome TGN "special" - 8x319 - WH / SAC and all to Bedford. Well crushed - but tolerable. 4 tph shuttle in operation by then from Kentish Town with the treat of 377's for the Elstree's of this world. A bad day in any case before this kicked off.

 

[user15681]

Not well handled at Blackfriars - information wise at 1710 - and bays left to SE guest appearance trains.
Trudge to Farringdon where the "Circle " was a tad busy. (understatement) 1800 EMT to Luton a bolt hole - and double back to St Albans. No chance - train mega crushed and unsurprisingly - doors failed (fitters attention to no avail) - still in platform at 1740 when I left on a welcome TGN "special" - 8x319 - WH / SAC and all to Bedford. Well crushed - but tolerable. 4 tph shuttle in operation by then from Kentish Town with the treat of 377's for the Elstree's of this world. A bad day in any case before this kicked off.

Get used to the 'guest appearances'! Sounds like you had a fun evening, though. What was an awful day is just getting worse with a PUT at Rochester.

Seems to me that 2O85 has left Smithfield Sidings with its pan up, gone through platform 1 at City Thameslink on the up line in order to reach the switch to the down line and brought down the wires in the process. Once out of the way, 2T46 has left Blackfriars heading north and come into contact with the downed wires entering City Thameslink.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Day after day - GTR cops it - one thing after another. What did amuse me was the well timed special from Pancras HL was 1Z00 - a digit away from a very special train. Going to be fun tonight in rebalancing the stock and of course getting the "OLE" sorted and checked. Not "fun" - very hard work for those on the night shift.

 

[Bald Rick]

Do we think this is more or less likely once the 700s come along? I understand they will automatically raise and lower the pantograph - just wondering how obvious it will be to the driver if it has got it wrong...

Much less likely as:

1) the 700s will raise / lower pans automatically
2) because of the increased level of service, Smithfields will rarely be used
3) being fixed formation 12 car, half the fleet won't fit in Smithfields anyway.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Or better still overhead rail!

Nice, solid, robust & won't get all tangled up with pantographs.

http://www.furrerfrey.ch/de/systeme/deckenstromschiene.html

What's the minimum clearance between the train and the rail the pantograph runs against needed for that?

 

[AM9]

Or better still overhead rail!

Nice, solid, robust & won't get all tangled up with pantographs.

http://www.furrerfrey.ch/de/systeme/deckenstromschiene.html

Actually my point was that whether solid beam or knitting, the problem of the Snow Hill tunnel and the Smithfield sidings may be one of clearances. I've just realised that the damn spellchecker changed what I entered to 'unregistered', whatever that means!
What I meant to say was if the wire/track was unenergised, it wouldn't need clearance above for 25kV. It would just be there to prevent the pantograph rising and hitting the roof of the tunnel.
It could actually be energised with a low voltage, e.g. 48VDC and any connection to it could be detected by the line side systems, thereby giving an opportunity to stop the driver proceeding.

 

[Bald Rick]

Is a rigid overhead conductor rail not being installed rather than traditional OHLE?

There is some - on both lines between the old KX Thameslink station and about halfway along the platforms of St Pancras LL. The new canal tunnels have it also. The only bit left to do is the gap between the current northern end of the beam at St Pancras LL and just past Canal Tunnel Jn. Should be done over Christmas all being well.

However if you think normal electrification is expensive, then this is something else!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

There is some - on both lines between the old KX Thameslink station and about halfway along the platforms of St Pancras LL. The new canal tunnels have it also. The only bit left to do is the gap between the current northern end of the beam at St Pancras LL and just past Canal Tunnel Jn. Should be done over Christmas all being well.

However if you think normal electrification is expensive, then this is something else!

Used in special circumstances - for the record - 1st UK use was in the "northern" Mound Tunnels at Edin Waverley....(thus giving flexibility for use for all tracks into the station - to deliver a Scottish 24tph capacity - if needed)

 

[Bald Rick]

Used in special circumstances - for the record - 1st UK use was in the "northern" Mound Tunnels at Edin Waverley....(thus giving flexibility for use for all tracks into the station - to deliver a Scottish 24tph capacity - if needed)

Not forgetting Trowse swing bridge.

 

[21C101]

My guess is that this happened at approx 16.32.

I was on 16.32 from St P and as it arrived from Farringdon into the station most of the lights went out for two or three minutes. Then they returned ands the train rebooted and we all set off north. Appears it was the last one to escape as everything else was "delayed" when I got off.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There is some - on both lines between the old KX Thameslink station and about halfway along the platforms of St Pancras LL. The new canal tunnels have it also. The only bit left to do is the gap between the current northern end of the beam at St Pancras LL and just past Canal Tunnel Jn. Should be done over Christmas all being well.

However if you think normal electrification is expensive, then this is something else!

Nah its dirt cheap. When the flying pigs re-electrify the entire southern they will just reuse the third rail and hang it from catenary poles........

 

[user15681]

My guess is that this happened at approx 16.32.

I was on 16.32 from St P and as it arrived from Farringdon into the station most of the lights went out for two or three minutes. Then they returned ands the train rebooted and we all set off north. Appears it was the last one to escape as everything else was "delayed" when I got off.

That's exactly when it happened. Yours was the last one to run north. I was on the one behind, the incident train, but fortunately had to get off at Blackfriars anyway.

 

[21C101]

That's exactly when it happened. Yours was the last one to run north. I was on the one behind, the incident train, but fortunately had to get off at Blackfriars anyway.

Presumably the delayed 15:07 off Brighton (which should have been at Blackfriars at 16:26) rather than the 15:30 sevenoaks to Bedford (due Blackfriars at 16:38)?

Wonder why trains were using Smithfield sidings at that time of day. 2O85 is supposed to start at St Albans and run to Sutton departing City at 16:26. Presumably it had been caped and used the sidings as the terminal platforms at Blackfriars are full of kent coast trains diverted from Cannon Street due to the great Lewisham broken points fiasco (which is a little odd as they dont actually go through lewisham normally they go up the fast avoiding lines, theyv'e presumably been diverted so that other trains normally going through lewisham (elmers end line perhaps?) can take their fast line paths).

So do we have a chain where a broken set of points on the south eastern at Lewisham for which there is apparently no spare part so the line is shut for a month has indirectly caused chaos on the Midland Main line and Brighton main line.

Talk about a chain reaction....... Glad I'm not the P'way quartermaster hock:

 

[user15681]

Presumably the delayed 15:07 off Brighton (which should have been at Blackfriars at 16:26) rather than the 15:30 sevenoaks to Bedford (due Blackfriars at 16:38)?

Wonder why trains were using Smithfield sidings at that time of day??

Delayed 15:07 off Brighton, 2T46.

 

[21C101]

Delayed 15:07 off Brighton, 2T46.

Bet the people heading for Luton Airport Parkway were well chuffed.

Because the 16.08 from Blackfriars had been cancelled the 16.22 had a stop order on it to make extra stops at Leagrave and Harlington, but NOT at Luton Airport Parkway, they had to wait for your train......