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Thameslink core - broken down train (24/3)

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Joe Paxton

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From NRE...

Major disruption to Thameslink services through Central London until 18:00

Description
Due to a broken down train at City Thameslink all northbound & southbound lines are disrupted.

Impact:
Train services running through this station may be cancelled, delayed by up to 60 minutes or revised. Some stations between London St Pancras International and London Blackfriars will not be served. Disruption is expected until 18:00 24/03.

Customer Advice:
The broken down started moving 15 minutes ago but is running 5mph so will take up to an hour to clear the lines.
-
Thameslink will be running a significantly revised service through the morning but will be working to restore the service for the evening peak.
[...]

Has anyone got more info on this?

Thameslink when it works is great, but blimey it's a fragile beast.
 
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Pumbaa

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Was up the swanny last night as well.

24tph no problem.
 

QueensCurve

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From NRE...



Has anyone got more info on this?

Thameslink when it works is great, but blimey it's a fragile beast.

When I looked at this, it was staying "trains are able to run on northbound and southbound lines". I think there should have been an un in there.

Presumably any kind of robustness in the proposed 24tph service will require failed trains to be pushed through by the following service. Given that a standard fleet with similar couplers will be used, will this be the case?
 

bengley

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A 12/700 failed at City Thameslink southbound with power issues at around 0400.

Unable to solve the issue, an assisting 8/700 was sent to rescue the train, however it was not possible to release the brakes after coupling. They eventually managed to get the brakes off, but the train is now en route to Cricklewood at 5mph as a 20 car 700. (It didn't leave City Tlk until 0822)

The fact it's running at 5mph implies that there is no brake continuity between the units (brakes isolated on the 12 car?)
 

Deepgreen

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Almost nothing running yesterday afternoon and a seeming disaster area again this morning. Still haven't heard what train failure could cause an hour's delay - not jumping to conclusions but was it the now supposedly-reliable '700s' or another class? Edit - just read the 20 car message - what a fiasco!

24tph should be as smooth as silk!
 
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Clip

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Almost nothing running yesterday afternoon and a seeming disaster area again this morning. Still haven't heard what train failure could cause an hour's delay - not jumping to conclusions but was it the now supposedly-reliable '700s' or another class?

24tph should be as smooth as silk!

Couple of posts above have outlined that the brakes failed and could only run at 5mph so I guess thats why it caused an hours delay.

Isnt there sidings at City Thameslink anymore?
 

455driver

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700 failed on changover to DC. First 'live' 700 rescue

Having to be rescued at 5mph indicates no brake continuity so more of a problem than not changing over to DC.

Whether we will find out what the real failure is with the new train is another thing all together!
 

GW43125

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Having to be rescued at 5mph indicates no brake continuity so more of a problem than not changing over to DC.

Whether we will find out what the real failure is with the new train is another thing all together!

Those in the know will but they'll be too embarrassed to say!

Though it's not impossible that it failed the swap and refused to go back into AC, then the crews not connecting the electrical blocks to avoid transferring the fault.
 
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infobleep

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How far is Cricklewood from the City?

Can't be the most exciting drive for the driver to have to drive a train at 5 miles an hour.
 

tsr

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The problem did start with the changeover to DC but rapidly escalated. Power could not be taken in either direction, the train did not properly respond to a full reset, and then the brakes could not be released on the train involved and the assisting train. Then the systems isolations failed to work, which was why the brakes were isolated and it ran at 5mph.

Unfortunately the sequence of diagnostics took so long that disruption was inevitable. Trains are slowly resuming on the whole route, unfortunately compounded by a pair of track defects requiring cautioning/blocks on the Down Fast at Earlswood.
 

Chris M

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The problem did start with the changeover to DC but rapidly escalated. Power could not be taken in either direction, the train did not properly respond to a full reset, and then the brakes could not be released on the train involved and the assisting train. Then the systems isolations failed to work, which was why the brakes were isolated and it ran at 5mph.
Computer says "No" by the sounds of it.
 

Ianno87

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Couple of posts above have outlined that the brakes failed and could only run at 5mph so I guess thats why it caused an hours delay.

Isnt there sidings at City Thameslink anymore?

Smithfield sidings are still there - but only 8-cars will fit.
 

tsr

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Computer says "No" by the sounds of it.

I have my suspicions that the brake issue was unlikely to have been, in and of itself, though it may have been as a result of the electrical issues. The brake application was actually one of the main sticking points for the rescue efforts, though major disruption might well have still occurred anyway.
 

Taunton

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I still feel, after the Kentish Town fiasco a few years ago, that a standby diesel loco on a spur will eventually be required. The Channel Tunnel does it. Was there nowhere nearer than Cricklewood to put it at 5mph; Blackfriars bays would be better than this.
 

tsr

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I still feel, after the Kentish Town fiasco a few years ago, that a standby diesel loco on a spur will eventually be required. The Channel Tunnel does it. Was there nowhere nearer than Cricklewood to put it at 5mph; Blackfriars bays would be better than this.

The Blackfriars bays face the wrong way, and doing any form of shunt manoeuvre over the junctions to the south wouldn't have helped matters; also, trying to change ends and then drive from the failed unit could have been risky.

As for diesel locomotives, it could be an idea, but it wouldn't necessarily overcome brake issues, door problems or some of the other woes which have struck the introduction of the 700s. Also, I have no doubt that the fumes could potentially set off smoke alarms or give a toxic atmosphere in somewhere like City Thameslink. This would not only cause problems for the stations themselves, but also possibly cause further faults on the 700s themselves. Apparently a Class 700 unit had its smoke alarms set off by an adjacent steam locomotive at Three Bridges the other day - not something I can ever say that I've heard of on other traction used in the TL Core.
 

jopsuk

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the channel tunnel rescue locos are fitted with exhaust scrubbers- used to need a separate wagon for them, they've got smaller and more efficient ones built in now.
 

Taunton

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Apparently a Class 700 unit had its smoke alarms set off by an adjacent steam locomotive at Three Bridges the other day - not something I can ever say that I've heard of on other traction used in the TL Core.
This should be fun passing any lineside fire. Would it brake the unit and leave it stuck in the smoke?
 

tsr

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This should be fun passing any lineside fire. Would it brake the unit and leave it stuck in the smoke?

I'm actually not sure what the unit does initially, except that the driver is notified and that it should try to extract any smoke which makes it onboard.
 

robbeech

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How much would we benefit from a diesel loco over an electric (AC and DC) one. I know they're rarer, but if the supply is off then you're no worse off as there would be no services running anyway, but if a train has failed but the track/wires are live then surely an electric loco would be able to do the same as a diesel one, but without the diesel downside.
 

Bald Rick

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I still feel, after the Kentish Town fiasco a few years ago, that a standby diesel loco on a spur will eventually be required. The Channel Tunnel does it. Was there nowhere nearer than Cricklewood to put it at 5mph; Blackfriars bays would be better than this.

As I've explained before - how would a rescue loco actually get to a failure? Given the intensity of service, there will always be at least a couple of trains between the rescue loco and the failure.

Better to rescue the failure with something exactly the same, ie the train behind.
 

pmh_74

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A 12/700 failed at City Thameslink southbound with power issues at around 0400.
...
They eventually managed to get the brakes off, but the train is now en route to Cricklewood at 5mph as a 20 car 700. (It didn't leave City Tlk until 0822)

The train I was on this morning (advertised as fast to St Pancras but actually stopped everywhere) got stuck alongside the sidings at Cricklewood at about 0940 for 15 minutes or so while this crossed into the depot in front of us. And when we eventually reached St Pancras at 1010 there were still no southbound trains. Neither of which makes particular sense based on the above.
 
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Taunton

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how would a rescue loco actually get to a failure? Given the intensity of service, there will always be at least a couple of trains between the rescue loco and the failure.

Better to rescue the failure with something exactly the same, ie the train behind.
Let me introduce the team to the amazing concept of emergency crossovers. And managements that know how to spell "resilience".

Meanwhile, rescue with the train behind appears, from the info above, to have taken 6 hours. The Kentish Town fiasco likewise. So that doesn't work then.
 

Abpj17

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A 12/700 failed at City Thameslink southbound with power issues at around 0400.

Unable to solve the issue, an assisting 8/700 was sent to rescue the train, however it was not possible to release the brakes after coupling. They eventually managed to get the brakes off, but the train is now en route to Cricklewood at 5mph as a 20 car 700. (It didn't leave City Tlk until 0822)

The fact it's running at 5mph implies that there is no brake continuity between the units (brakes isolated on the 12 car?)

*sighs* that early? When I looked at app at 07:10 trains were all showing as fine going southbound; 10 mins later on way to station everything was red - delayed etc.

They need to get better at communications!

My train was delayed en route by around 75 mins (for a 50 minute journey). Delays on the way home too - left the office later than planned as there was simply no evidence of train. Lucky enough to work from home on Thurs so missed that chaos.

Diesel is unlikely to be practical given the covered stations in the core - especially St P and CTX. Wouldn't take much for them to get pretty unpleasant from smoke. As others have said, how does any rescue train get to the right place if it's anywhere other than the Smithfield sidings? (Breakdown is almost always Farringdon or City Thameslink as that's where the power changes)
 
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tsr

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As I've explained before - how would a rescue loco actually get to a failure? Given the intensity of service, there will always be at least a couple of trains between the rescue loco and the failure.

Better to rescue the failure with something exactly the same, ie the train behind.

There are technical pros and cons to rescuing with a locomotive, some of which I've already touched on - the cons include the possibility that the fault may still transfer, especially a brake fault, and in this case it may only be able to be overcome by attaching more vehicles than just one locomotive, anyway. Also, diesel locos might be more resilient to power failures, but I can't see any off-the-shelf options being routinely used in confined spaces.

However, a dedicated loco able to be resourced for rescue purposes might have been quicker - often the assisting unit must de-train, which takes time when you have a long and busy train full of disgruntled passengers, and we must not forget that overnight failures in service do not always immediately result in a long queue of trains - this failure occurred well before 5am, with relatively little traffic around, yet it took a couple of hours before the assisting unit was required, prepared, moved forward, coupled up, tried to move and then failed too.

The train I was on this morning (advertised as fast to St Pancras but actually stopped everywhere) got stuck alongside the sidings at Cricklewood at about 0940 for 15 minutes or so while this crossed into the depot in front of us. And when we eventually reached St Pancras at 1010 there were still no southbound trains. Neither of which makes particular sense based on the above.

A "split service" was implemented to run either side of the Thames after about 0730, with trains only being reintroduced to the Core once it started to reopen. That being said, split service implementation is often messy and basically theoretical, as there are so many units still trying to cross London or stuck in queues/awaiting crew/with major delays some way outside the zones. It went a bit better here, though not much more so, simply because the peak arrivals were still ramping up to full capacity when the decision to pull more of the service was made. Or such was my observation of it.

Let me introduce the team to the amazing concept of emergency crossovers. And managements that know how to spell "resilience".

The Core has bi-directional signalling and emergency crossovers, but one of my biggest bugbears is that they take absolutely ages to start to be used, and when they do, somehow what should be a passage of a few minutes across a small part of London turns into a half-hour detour with numerous opportunities for head-scratching and wondering what's going on. In fairness, this also applies with the bi-di running on the Brighton Mainline to a much greater extent, though it seems to have been ironed out quite well on some of the longer-distance mainlines, which is curious (it's even used to overtake trains to get expresses ahead of delayed stoppers on the GEML, for example, which is pure fantasy on the BML!).
 
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