tsr
Established Member
Cardboard covered in old socks.
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Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress
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Cardboard covered in old socks.
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RailUK Forums
Clearly no 'carnage' caused by these hoplessly unreliable trains this week, - and this has been a difficult week for weather conditions. There must be some really disappointed members in GN land who seem to want them to regularly fail and cause disruption across the system.
Now that's not fair, one was delayed for 5 minutes at Brighton on Thursday
It has however been the first time that I can remember where in reasonably decent snowfall (we had 10-15cm in St Albans), the TL north service ran a full morning peak, indeed a full morning peak that was 100% PPM and over 90% RT. That never ever happened with 319s / 377s.
Without being specific, you weren't one of those that I had in mind. As I've said elsewhere, the trains' reliability at moving large numbers reliably is the real issue, the interior is clearly functional and may not appeal to all. As a passenger, I find them fine and fit for purpose, (and not just the declassified first class areas). Given the extreme demands that will be put on them over their life, time will tell whether the right decisions were made.
I take serious umbrage where people blindly accepted the 'bathtub curve' and turn that same blind eye to any and every single fault these units have; and still do. They are in no way perfect and in no way 'fit for purpose' I still find many flaws and although they are more operational in nature, there is still a knock on effect to the service and certainly a knock on effect to the passenger.
Every single day last week my unit had some form of fault. None of which caused a cancellation but operationally I just despaired that another week and I'm still fighting my unit.
The funny thing with the declassified first class section. It is literally at the whim of the Driver to what PIS code they input or whether or not they decide to declassify it using the PIS unit. Again, this is an operational detail that passengers do not see.
Internally there are still various issues and they are yet to be truly challenged. I totally enjoy driving them and in all honesty they are generally favored amongst Drivers. We just don't blindly accept when they break; constantly. Reliability has increased from a passenger perspective but unfortunately from an operational one, they suck donkey balls.
trainmania100
Established Member
700133 was delivered today beihind 66773 sandwiched between barriers using steel wagons as opposed to intermodals as brake force
You can watch my video at
Thanks for watching
You can watch my video at
Travelled in the rear declassified First Class compartment today. Thank goodness I didn't spend money on a first class ticket.
No heating so the carriage was absolutely freezing, particularly once all the door automatically open and there being no heat to counter the cold draught.
The seats are looking decidedly tired. Worn and dirty. The seat covering doesn't seem to be lasting as well as those in second class.
Could the 8-car 700/0 be extended to 10 car units by the addition of 2 extra carriages ? Fairly sure the extra capacity would be welcomed on the capacity constrained MML. And 10-car units should be able to operate on at least a few alternative routes on the Southern network away from the BML.
No heating so the carriage was absolutely freezing, particularly once all the door automatically open and there being no heat to counter the cold draught.
The seats are looking decidedly tired. Worn and dirty. The seat covering doesn't seem to be lasting as well as those in second class.
Could the 8-car 700/0 be extended to 10 car units by the addition of 2 extra carriages ? Fairly sure the extra capacity would be welcomed on the capacity constrained MML. And 10-car units should be able to operate on at least a few alternative routes on the Southern network away from the BML.
I was thinking additional new build coaches. Perhaps one driven and the other not.
Seeing a number of Southern networks have only recently been upgraded from 8-car to 10-car, it would seem a missed opportunity not to use lengthened units for capacity enhancement both North and South of the Thames.
Seeing a number of Southern networks have only recently been upgraded from 8-car to 10-car, it would seem a missed opportunity not to use lengthened units for capacity enhancement both North and South of the Thames.
Catford Loop...
What you would need to do is have another subset of 700's RLU/FLU and a MLU but then you run into stock rotation issues, mileages, limited availability for replacement stock, New car marks, balises etc. etc.
I assume there's an option to extend the 8 cars to 12 given the coach numbering (namely the 8 cars are numbered as 12 cars with 4 coaches 'missing'). As time goes on, surely that's the next way to extend capacity - assuming we extend all remaining platforms to take 12 cars or use SDO more frequently.
But wouldn't that create difficulties with keeping the PRM facilities stopping at the core raised platform sections at the same time as balancing the power in the two 'virtual' half units?
The 8 car was designed such that the accessible coaches line up at the raised platform sections just as the 12 cars do. Making an 8 car into a 12 car doesn't cause any issues at all (besides some coaches being far younger when it comes to maintenance, but the same must have applied to the 390s going from 9 to 11 cars).
8 to 10 would be more problematic, so I can't see that ever happening.
I'm sure I spotted a 10-car Southern service heading for Sutton. That's what made me wonder why the Luton to Sutton Thameslink services are limited to 8-car.
Obviously the Catford loop is a problem, but I was thinking why aren't the Thameslink units used on routes South of the Thames where there is demand and capacity for 12-car units with multiples of 4-car and 2-car units for those routes which have limited platform lengths.
Orpington, Sutton, Wimbledon, Bromley, East Grinstead are just some of the current destinations I believe.
Obviously the Catford loop is a problem, but I was thinking why aren't the Thameslink units used on routes South of the Thames where there is demand and capacity for 12-car units with multiples of 4-car and 2-car units for those routes which have limited platform lengths.
Orpington, Sutton, Wimbledon, Bromley, East Grinstead are just some of the current destinations I believe.
London Trains
Established Member
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You "spotted" a 10 car Southern to Sutton. Over 50% of Southern Trains to Sutton are 10 coaches, and most of the Southern Metro is 10 car.
bramling
Veteran Member
Why on earth would people want disruption to be caused by the trains? GN users are going to get enough disruption as a result of the linking of services across the river, without a need for more.
The trains will (probably) settle down, however Thameslink as a concept won’t. It hasn’t in nearly three decades, and for as long as delays, incidents and failures occur on the railway it still won’t. The uncomfortable trains are just a further insult to injury, as is their early unreliability.
bramling
Veteran Member
What’s the betting that when/if someone seriously wants to extend the 8-car versions, for whatever reason it can’t be done. Maybe then we can get some new 12-car versions built from scratch to a more pleasing design more appropriate to longer journeys? The 8-cars can then be banished to inner-suburban metro work, or failing that exported abroad, or even better scrapped in front of an audience?
The contract has options to extend to 12 car. (leasing contract is till 2043)
As several people will probably point out the average TL journey will be 20-25 mins so they are entirely fit for purpose, just not your purpose.
1) there are many way to get to Sutton, some on 8 car routes some on 10 car routes.
The Wimbledon Loop and everything (from London Bridge) via Tulse Hill is 8car (as is Herne Hill and the Catford Loop)
2) Fixed length units have more passenger space than lots of shorter units coupled together and you also save about £250k per cab you don't have.
3) SDO makes sense if you have good number of full length platforms and don't foul junctions with longer trains (a problem at Tulse Hill and Herne Hill which will need a big spend to sort hence 8 car for long time to come).
We'll probably have to wait a while to find out. I can't see 8 car trains being extended for many years yet.
bramling
Veteran Member
And as has been pointed out before, this is heavily skewed by journeys wholly within the core, and also by St Albans. On the GN side 20 minutes barely gets you to Hatfield and Stevenage depending on stopping pattern. This isn’t much comfort for users travelling from busy stations north of there. So not fit for a lot of people’s purposes - local papers are starting to pick up on this, not bad for two diagrams so far!
bramling
Veteran Member
I agree. So much for Thameslink Programme being all about maximising capacity. Thus 8-cars here to stay at many locations. The clue is in the fact that there are more 8-car undesiros than 12-cars.
Agreed on both counts. Passengers on the 0736 from Stevenage are not happy. There was no need for the bargain basement interior.
I await Operation Snowflake with interest....
I think they might be running more 12 car 700s in the week between Christmas and New Year? Not sure how many. Perhaps someone else can confirm if this is correct?
I assume it's a good time to do some more public testing when things are quiet.
I assume it's a good time to do some more public testing when things are quiet.
Sevenoaks, Swanley, Cray, Bromley South, Blackfriars... Is not really much of a stopping pattern and takes out another pathway.
Would you remove a 12 car unit from a pathway that has a full FLU capacity just to add a 12 car service on the loop ? If you were adding coaches. You end up reducing the RLU fleet.
The problem is that unless all platforms are extended to 12 cars; 8 IS maximum capacity.
It was lengthening to 10-cars that I was referring to as suggested by MML in post #9131. I can't see it either. 12-cars could be an option when a few more platforms are extended particularly when the GN side passenger demand increases with the large scale housing expansion along the line as has been indicated here. Conversely, the possible shrinking of City employment over the next few years may have some impact on demand.
who is applying these logos
Till recently 700129 had the logos placed far too low on the bodyside although I believe this is now rectified
However 700133 in that video has the logos correct then one missing and then too low down!
RichJF
Member
A first today. 08:02 London Bridge to Horsham was EARLY, yes early today! First time in using the 700's that a service has been on time/early!
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