Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[bramling]

I do think that for the most part, the information isn't of much use on the train EXCEPT that it may show regulars the times/places when other parts of the train are less full and encourage them to go somewhere else the NEXT time they travel.

Except that if more than a couple of people have the same idea, all of a sudden that part of the train isn't less full the next day - it may well be more full. One could even end up with a scenario where the same service loads in different ways every day, which doesn't really help anyone!

I still think platform exits is the over-riding feature for most people anyway. Personally I don't really understand why it should be so important, but it evidently is. I can understand why it happens at rush hours at places where there might be a considerable delay exiting through a gateline and also perhaps exiting a car park (on GN Hitchin seems to be a favourite for this), but it happens at non-busy times too. Walk-through trains exacerbate this - S stock at King's Cross eastbound is a particularly bad case as there will always be a load of people who will be positioned by the very front doors by the time the train gets there. With that door also being adjacent to where a disproportionate number of people will be waiting to board, this is not good for dwell times at all.

 

[tsr]

A Class 700 ceiling panel fell onto a passenger at Blackfriars this morning. Fortunately they weren't injured, and the driver could secure it fairly easily, but even so...

 

[ComUtoR]

A Class 700 ceiling panel fell onto a passenger at Blackfriars this morning. Fortunately they weren't injured, and the driver could secure it fairly easily, but even so...

Bathtub curve, totally acceptable.

 

[MCR247]

I remember it being said that the roof panels were meant to be easy to remove and replace (this being the reason why they can't have poles from the ceiling for standing pax?) but they should be that easy to remove surely?

 

[physics34]

http://www.borehamwoodtimes.co.uk/n...owden_holds_Thameslink_meeting_for_commuters/

Commuters will be able to air their grievances with the railway at an upcoming meeting.

The public event will be chaired by MP for Hertsmere Oliver Dowden with senior executives from Govia Thameslink Railway and Network Rail.

The meeting will be held at 7pm on Thursday, November 2 in the Council Chamber in the Civic Offices in Elstree Way, Borehamwood.

The session will review whether passengers complaints had been addressed since the last session Mr Dowden held to discuss rail issues in March 2016.

November the 2nd.

Someone go there and mention the negatives we constantly discuss..... seat hardness, seat closeness to wall, bay tables etc etc

 

[Tim R-T-C]

There was a 700 (019?) in Kings Cross yesterday morning, is this a scheduled working or some test running?

 

[tsr]

I remember it being said that the roof panels were meant to be easy to remove and replace (this being the reason why they can't have poles from the ceiling for standing pax?) but they should be that easy to remove surely?

The reason for the lack of grab poles attached to the ceiling is that the designers et al needed to save weight, so the panels / fixings were not designed to be able to withstand someone pulling on them. Sadly in this instance it would also appear they have not been able to withstand gravity... although this is an isolated incident by any definition, it's worrying on a new train! There was also quite a media storm when this happened on a 455 fairly recently - fortunately TL do not appear to face the same issue here, so far.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

The reason for the lack of grab poles attached to the ceiling is that the designers et al needed to save weight, so the panels / fixings were not designed to be able to withstand someone pulling on them. Sadly in this instance it would also appear they have not been able to withstand gravity... although this is an isolated incident by any definition, it's worrying on a new train! There was also quite a media storm when this happened on a 455 fairly recently - fortunately TL do not appear to face the same issue here, so far.

It was mentioned a while back that there's a fair bit of electronics and electrical stuff mounted in the ceiling space

 

[AM9]

It was mentioned a while back that there's a fair bit of electronics and electrical stuff mounted in the ceiling space

Clearly it shouldn't have fallen but the issue is why did it fall. If it was a failure of it's fastening device(s), even if a random failure - then that is a serious matter for Siemens. If on the other hand it was a failure to secure it before it entered service, then assuming the fixings are suitable for repeated use, there would appear to be a flawed maintenance regime. However poor GTR's customer service might seem, I presume that the threat of an HSE prosecution would ensure that an issue of this nature is given the appropriate priority.

 

[samuelmorris]

http://www.borehamwoodtimes.co.uk/n...owden_holds_Thameslink_meeting_for_commuters/

November the 2nd. SOmeone go there and mention the negatives we constantly discuss..... seat hardness, seat closeness to wall, bay tables etc etc

I don't imagine any action is likely to be taken about the floor space intrusion at the window seats, that'd be a fundamental redesign of the entire train which would be time consuming & costly to implement.

Hard seats, possibly but given all newly introduced stock since around 2012 is the same in that regard I can't see that changing either. Frankly, other than making the government aware of poor service standards these meetings seem largely pointless.

Continuously meeting with Greater Anglia executives did actually correlate with them improving the parts of their service under their control (i.e. rolling stock maintenance and cleanliness) - but they were not nationally infamous like GTR are. National government are all too aware how poor the service offered by GTR is but as far as I know the solution is pretty much a done deal. When the upgrade works are complete and the management contract comes to an end, change the operator to someone that actually gives a damn and pass all the blame for DfT's poor decisions on the historic operator famed for their bad rep. Until then, I don't imagine you'll see any change at all. Certainly not anything on the scale as correcting the specification and design errors of a 1000+ vehicle strong fleet that is still entering service.

 

[AM9]

I don't imagine any action is likely to be taken about the floor space intrusion at the window seats, that'd be a fundamental redesign of the entire train which would be time consuming & costly to implement.

Hard seats, possibly but given all newly introduced stock since around 2012 is the same in that regard I can't see that changing either. Frankly, other than making the government aware of poor service standards these meetings seem largely pointless.

Continuously meeting with Greater Anglia executives did actually correlate with them improving the parts of their service under their control (i.e. rolling stock maintenance and cleanliness) - but they were not nationally infamous like GTR are. National government are all too aware how poor the service offered by GTR is but as far as I know the solution is pretty much a done deal. When the upgrade works are complete and the management contract comes to an end, change the operator to someone that actually gives a damn and pass all the blame for DfT's poor decisions on the historic operator famed for their bad rep. Until then, I don't imagine you'll see any change at all. Certainly not anything on the scale as correcting the specification and design errors of a 1000+ vehicle strong fleet that is still entering service.

The only 'design errors' that need to be fixed are:

a) those that affect safety (which includes genuine health and safety issues)
and
b) those that reduce availability.​

Providing the trains meet their part of the Thameslink Programme requirement and of course their procurement specification, they will continue in full service until a mid-life update/refresh/refurb., when, if the needs change, some minor changes can be introduced. With the likely state of public funds over the next 10 years, there won't be much enthusiasm to change anything that makes no difference to their service as dedicated high density outer suburban rolling stock, even if the occasional MP bleats about the threat to his majority of vociferous commuter pressure groups' noise.

 

[samuelmorris]

Indeed, hence the point about using meetings with MPs to complain about the new stock being rather fruitless. The cost of amending the other things people don't like about the units would be prohibitive since it doesn't stop them fulfilling their role.

 

[ComUtoR]

The only 'design errors' that need to be fixed are:

a) those that affect safety (which includes genuine health and safety issues)
and
b) those that reduce availability.​

​

What isn't a genuine health and safety issue ?

B) Is very overarching. Rubbish wipers will reduce availability. DMI faults will reduce availability, PIS issues will reduce availability etc. etc.

There are various design errors that need to be looked into. The PIS screen issue posted is a design error. Its also a design error that we cannot skip stations or alter the PIS when given a stop order. The '4 doors opening' was very much a design error which has now been addressed. Trains are more than something that carts passengers from A to B. They need to meet various operational criteria too.

Passengers are rightly upset that that they have been sold something and they haven't got it. Where I personally couldn't care less about seat back tables or plugs, WiFi etc. Passengers clearly do. This is their train and their needs need to be met. If they see issues as 'design error' then it shouldn't be dismissed. If I went to such a meeting I would be asking about everything I could and want to know what can and cannot be done. The majority of passengers don't care or understand about CP(X), refurb programs etc. and wy should they ? Everyone want the Railway to move forward and modernise so why not address issues as and when they arise, rather than put everything off and let people suffer until the next refurb.

 

[AM9]

​

What isn't a genuine health and safety issue ?

B) Is very overarching. Rubbish wipers will reduce availability. DMI faults will reduce availability, PIS issues will reduce availability etc. etc.

There are various design errors that need to be looked into. The PIS screen issue posted is a design error. Its also a design error that we cannot skip stations or alter the PIS when given a stop order. The '4 doors opening' was very much a design error which has now been addressed. Trains are more than something that carts passengers from A to B. They need to meet various operational criteria too.

Hence my point: "... there won't be much enthusiasm to change anything that makes no difference to their service as dedicated high density outer suburban rolling stock, ..." is all about their operational role on the Thameslink routes.

... Everyone want the Railway to move forward and modernise so why not address issues as and when they arise, rather than put everything off and let people suffer until the next refurb.

Unless it was an issue such as a) & b) in my post #8471 where there is a safety/operational need to act, there would be absolute chaos taking trains out of service (in the case of class 700 that's 1140 vehicles) given that any 'spare' units are, for obvious cost reasons, scaled at the minimum necessary to give an acceptable availability for the advertised service. If we're talking about seat cushions too soft for some passengers, or other similar cosmetic issues, they can be replaced when they become unserviceable through breakage or wear and tear as part of the maintenance programme. I can just imagine the ire of those who normally are grateful to just get standing space on peak trains on being given the reason from the TOC that their regular train 'has been cancelled so that 'seat cushions that are more comfortable for some of our passengers can be installed'.
I don't know what the operational life of train seats or other non-operational items is but to change them on the whole fleet without decimating the service may take until somewhere near their mid-life works age anyway.

 

[ComUtoR]

I've seen fleets go in and out of the shed for various mods, time and time again, with little impact to the service. 700's are also software updates with little impact to the service.

I think that if we started to tell passenger that improvements that they have requested are being made over time then it will make a difference. Sometimes small changes are important. Seat back tables are being added and I don't see any cancellations for that as yet. Our fleet is having WiFi installed and no cancellations so far and I doubt there will be.

As I say, what can and cannot be done should be highlighted to passengers and what can be done, should be. It isn't always about the physical issues with the units that are causing passenger ire. They also want the service addressed and they were sold that 700's will improve the service. So far, same ****, different day and that's what I believe is upsetting them the most. That and the cancellations due to faults that are still happening. They don't believe in a bathtub curve and certainly do not accept it. New should mean working as intended. I would say they want that addressed and at the least, explained how and why this happens. Educating them is just as important.

 

[AM9]

... So far, same ****, different day and that's what I believe is upsetting them the most. That and the cancellations due to faults that are still happening. They don't believe in a bathtub curve and certainly do not accept it. New should mean working as intended. I would say they want that addressed and at the least, explained how and why this happens. Educating them is just as important.

Well it's still early days and new trains are still being delivered. Some here with inside knowledge have posted that the 700s are more reliable than the 319s (and so they should be) and generally, no less reliable than the 387s were 18 months after their introduction, (despite them being just the latest version of a series that has been in service for 20 years). I don't have any official figures and wouldn't rely on anecdotal opinion as a measure of their reliability, especially the loudest commuters, the press or politicians. Even my own experience using them is not valid in this discussion despite only being affected on one train on the first train through the core (30 June 2016) with a 10 minute delay with the doors at CTK, and not delayed by failures on any other TL trains. Maybe I am the only lucky TL passenger.

 

[bramling]

I've seen fleets go in and out of the shed for various mods, time and time again, with little impact to the service. 700's are also software updates with little impact to the service.

I think that if we started to tell passenger that improvements that they have requested are being made over time then it will make a difference. Sometimes small changes are important. Seat back tables are being added and I don't see any cancellations for that as yet. Our fleet is having WiFi installed and no cancellations so far and I doubt there will be.

As I say, what can and cannot be done should be highlighted to passengers and what can be done, should be. It isn't always about the physical issues with the units that are causing passenger ire. They also want the service addressed and they were sold that 700's will improve the service. So far, same ****, different day and that's what I believe is upsetting them the most. That and the cancellations due to faults that are still happening. They don't believe in a bathtub curve and certainly do not accept it. New should mean working as intended. I would say they want that addressed and at the least, explained how and why this happens. Educating them is just as important.

For me the biggest complaint is the seating - I can just about tolerate the hard seats, but I find the window seats intolerable because of the ducting, and worse in the airline seats because of the cantilever.

I went for a ride through the core last week on one. In just that short journey I saw people sitting at 45 degrees in the window seats, as well as three different people change seats. I also felt the person sitting behind me constantly banging his knees on my seat. All this points to the seating not being fit for purpose.

Personally I’m not even that fussed about tables, although my current trains have them and I do use them. But the seating on the 700s I find so unsatisfactory that I would and will drive over taking the train. I’m fortunate that this option is a viable one for me.

I agree with everything written that the railway should be doing the best it can to provide passengers with what they want. If that means tables, so be it. Someone has evidently been asking for them otherwise they wouldn’t be being retrofitted. Not everyone can use the declassified first, which we know a certain fan of these trains on here does...

As for the bathtub curve, yes it’s inevitable and understandable, but that doesn’t excuse complacency. What makes me laugh is how we read on here about how the introduction of these trains would be so wonderful compared to anything else, and reality has proved that their introduction has been just as rocky as anything else - if anything more so. It puts in perspective all the assurances about how wonderful the timetable will work next year, sadly timetables don’t tend to have a bathtub curve - they either work or they don’t.

 

[absolutelymilk]

As for the bathtub curve, yes it’s inevitable and understandable, but that doesn’t excuse complacency. What makes me laugh is how we read on here about how the introduction of these trains would be so wonderful compared to anything else,

Could you link to where anyone has said this?

 

[Bromley boy]

Well it's still early days and new trains are still being delivered. Some here with inside knowledge have posted that the 700s are more reliable than the 319s (and so they should be) and generally, no less reliable than the 387s were 18 months after their introduction, (despite them being just the latest version of a series that has been in service for 20 years). I don't have any official figures and wouldn't rely on anecdotal opinion as a measure of their reliability, especially the loudest commuters, the press or politicians. Even my own experience using them is not valid in this discussion despite only being affected on one train on the first train through the core (30 June 2016) with a 10 minute delay with the doors at CTK, and not delayed by failures on any other TL trains. Maybe I am the only lucky TL passenger.

Anyone know when the final delivery is expected to be?

 

[Bald Rick]

Maybe I am the only lucky TL passenger.

I think I'm lucky too. I got my second delay on the 700s last week; approx 15 minutes with a changeover that went wrong. Two delays in a year of using them is rather better than my 319 or 377 record. But then I'm one of the two lucky TL passengers.

I agree with everything written that the railway should be doing the best it can to provide passengers with what they want. If that means tables, so be it. Someone has evidently been asking for them otherwise they wouldn’t be being retrofitted....

As for the bathtub curve, yes it’s inevitable and understandable, but that doesn’t excuse complacency. What makes me laugh is how we read on here about how the introduction of these trains would be so wonderful compared to anything else, and reality has proved that their introduction has been just as rocky as anything else - if anything more so. It puts in perspective all the assurances about how wonderful the timetable will work next year, sadly timetables don’t tend to have a bathtub curve - they either work or they don’t.

Having seen the cost for refitting wifi and tables, it is a waste of cash, it really is. The people asking for them to be refitted was a lot of noise from user groups and, yes, forums like these. There wasn't much from regular passengers and commuters - there never is. Current TL commuters have never had wifi, and only had tables of any sort on a small proportion of services for the last 7-8 years.

New timetables definitely do have a bathtub curve, albeit only one end of the bath tub. It is a well recognised issue amongst those who have implemented major timetable changes across a wide area. (I've done 5, across 4 different TOCs, and they all had it). Drivers, signallers, station staff, control staff - all take time to get fully comfortable with new operating patterns, new regulating issues, new rosters, new stopping patterns, etc. That is why so much effort is put into preparation beforehand. Even then, a relatively small incident can cause much higher delay than in the old timetable. It normally takes 6-8 weeks for it all to work out.

 

[Failed Unit]

My first trip in the peak since the all 700s on the route. Must admit with the dwell times I experienced today I can’t see how the full timetable will work. (But don’t know how long the dwell in the core will be.)

Services were all running late (but only by about 5 mins) but because of passengers getting on / off the delay increased by about 2 mins from St Pancras to Blackfriars.

 

[hooverboy]

I've seen fleets go in and out of the shed for various mods, time and time again, with little impact to the service. 700's are also software updates with little impact to the service.

I think that if we started to tell passenger that improvements that they have requested are being made over time then it will make a difference. Sometimes small changes are important. Seat back tables are being added and I don't see any cancellations for that as yet. Our fleet is having WiFi installed and no cancellations so far and I doubt there will be.

personally I would prefer a comfortable seat to wifi-ok these units are designed for basically a max 30 minute journey(commuter belt).if you have tried going end to end on thameslink the seats are utterly backbreaking...you get off at the other end with cramp.it's not nice

 

[radamfi]

Were the window seats tested before the trains went into service? It seems a remarkably obvious flaw.

If the seats were moved 100 mm into the aisle, that would fix the problem. Otherwise you might as well remove the window seat as it is effectively unusable.

 

[physics34]

Were the window seats tested before the trains went into service? It seems a remarkably obvious flaw.

If the seats were moved 100 mm into the aisle, that would fix the problem. Otherwise you might as well remove the window seat as it is effectively unusable.

They are the same as other desiros as far as i can tell.

I wrote to the DfT and their answer was that they wanted the aisles to be as wide as possible, for fast boarding.

 

[Ze Random One]

Were the window seats tested before the trains went into service? It seems a remarkably obvious flaw.

If the seats were moved 100 mm into the aisle, that would fix the problem. Otherwise you might as well remove the window seat as it is effectively unusable.

Which is entertaining as I read this from the comfort of a class 700 window seat!
Not the most comfortable, but certainly not "unusable"

 

[radamfi]

They are the same as other desiros as far as i can tell.

444s and 2+2 350s have window seats.

 

[physics34]

Which is entertaining as I read this from the comfort of a class 700 window seat!
Not the most comfortable, but certainly not "unusable"

is there anyone sitting next to you? If so, its a tight squeeze for your feet

 

[physics34]

444s and 2+2 350s have window seats.

450s there is some foot intrusion

 

[radamfi]

Which is entertaining as I read this from the comfort of a class 700 window seat!
Not the most comfortable, but certainly not "unusable"

Have you got short legs? If you have long legs, you have to put them partly in front of the seat next to you, meaning that the passenger in the aisle seat has some of their legs in the aisle, defeating the whole point of having a wide aisle for quick boarding.

 

[radamfi]

450s there is some foot intrusion

Yes, 450s don't have window seats. Neither do 3+2 350s on LM.