Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[bramling]

There's apparently a rather large potential problem that needs to be resolved before any can be introduced on GN... dispatch. Could just be the usual railway rumour mill running into overdrive but rumour has it ASLEF want them dispatched by Platform staff all over the place, GTR (unsurprisingly) can't afford this due to the sheer numbers of extra staff that would be needed, so they're at a bit of a stalemate. If it's true it could be interesting to see what happens and how it's resolved, if it's not then expect them in service next month!

Normally I would dismiss such internal rumours straight away but there is a massive and ever increasing amount of trains now being dispatched on GN, especially in darkness, including the 387s with their on board cameras.

If true, good on ASLEF. The longer before these unreliable and uncomfortable monstrosities (or should that be Undesiro Monstrocities?) are inflicted on GN the better. It's not like the 365s have anywhere to be rushing off to, and Thameslink keeps demonstrating the infrastructure is barely up to its existing service let alone more.

 

[Failed Unit]

How is the driver training going? When the 387s were getting introduced I saw lots this time last year stood at WGC awaiting paths. Havent seen any 700s yet at similar times.

The dispatcher thing is interesting, it already causes skip stopping on the 387s as drivers have said because of a fault with the monitors i can't stop a x,y and z because of no dispatcher. In fact had a delay at WGC as the dispatcher was AWOL in middle of the day.

 

[bramling]

How is the driver training going? When the 387s were getting introduced I saw lots this time last year stood at WGC awaiting paths. Havent seen any 700s yet at similar times.

The dispatcher thing is interesting, it already causes skip stopping on the 387s as drivers have said because of a fault with the monitors i can't stop a x,y and z because of no dispatcher. In fact had a delay at WGC as the dispatcher was AWOL in middle of the day.

One can only assume that dispatch has suddenly become a big issue due to the combination of more longer trains, conversion of stations to LED lighting, and recent prosecutions serving to focus minds. The situation is a little silly however, as having staff dispatching at perfectly straight platforms like Welwyn North is simply wasteful. But if it keeps the 700s away then good.

 

[Hadders]

As far as I know 12-car trains on the GN have to be dispatched, everything else platform monitors/mirrors.

There aren't that may stations that have 12-car length platforms. From memory it's Finsbury Park, Stevenage, Hitchin, Arlesey, Sandy, St Neots, Huntingdon, Peterborough, Letchworth, Royston and Cambridge (not sure about Baldock or Biggleswade).

My suspicion has always been that GN will generally get the 8-car class 700 trains with the majority of the 12-cars for the 'classic' Thameslink Bedford route. There will be exceptions to this but it's not as thought there aren't any 12-car trains at present....

 

[bramling]

As far as I know 12-car trains on the GN have to be dispatched, everything else platform monitors/mirrors.

There aren't that may stations that have 12-car length platforms. From memory it's Finsbury Park, Stevenage, Hitchin, Arlesey, Sandy, St Neots, Huntingdon, Peterborough, Letchworth, Royston and Cambridge (not sure about Baldock or Biggleswade).

My suspicion has always been that GN will generally get the 8-car class 700 trains with the majority of the 12-cars for the 'classic' Thameslink Bedford route. There will be exceptions to this but it's not as thought there aren't any 12-car trains at present....

If they start replacing 2x365 diagrams with the 8-car 700s then it won't go down well. There's already a considerable amount of local dissatisfaction with the 387s for similar reasons, and at least these have a reasonably pleasant interior.

As far as dispatch goes, it used to be the case that it was only 12-car trains. However in the last couple of years things have gone haywire, with staff being required at an increasing number of stations during hours of darkness. No one has really given a definitive reason why this has suddenly become an issue, apart from "the drivers want it, and what the drivers want the drivers get". There's dedicated dispatch staff all over the show at the moment, including small stations like Welwyn North.

 

[Bishopstone]

I've noticed Thameslink's Brighton services are predominantly 8-car 700s, even - or especially - during the peaks, in the direction of primary passenger flow.

The Three Bridges terminators seem to turn-out more 12-car units which feels counter-intuitive, though perhaps they are wedged between Redhill and the City?

Is the 12-car fleet, such as it is so far, concentrated north of the Thames in the times/directions of peak flow?

I trust that when 700 deliveries are complete and the service settles, 8-car to Brighton (and Littlehampton come 2018) won't be the norm, as we were promised 12-car trains to offset the reduction in seats, like for like, versus class 319, 377 and 387 units.

 

[bramling]

I've noticed Thameslink's Brighton services are predominantly 8-car 700s, even - or especially - during the peaks, in the direction of primary passenger flow.

The Three Bridges terminators seem to turn-out more 12-car units which feels counter-intuitive, though perhaps they are wedged between Redhill and the City?

Is the 12-car fleet, such as it is so far, concentrated north of the Thames in the times/directions of peak flow?

I trust that when 700 deliveries are complete and the service settles, 8-car to Brighton (and Littlehampton come 2018) won't be the norm, as we were promised 12-car trains to offset the reduction in seats, like for like, versus class 319, 377 and 387 units.

Whatever the plans may be, there are a lot of 8-car units, and one can just predict that somewhere along the line some bright spark will notice there's an opportunity to save money by running 8-car 700s wherever possible.

This is just no good, as anyone who has experienced the difference between an 8-car 365 and an 8-car 387 on the same service will have observed. This will especially bite when Thameslink provides its usual erratic service, so you get uneven intervals due to late running and thus some services loaded more heavily than they should be. All of which happens already...

 

[jon0844]

If they start replacing 2x365 diagrams with the 8-car 700s then it won't go down well. There's already a considerable amount of local dissatisfaction with the 387s for similar reasons, and at least these have a reasonably pleasant interior.

As far as dispatch goes, it used to be the case that it was only 12-car trains. However in the last couple of years things have gone haywire, with staff being required at an increasing number of stations during hours of darkness. No one has really given a definitive reason why this has suddenly become an issue, apart from "the drivers want it, and what the drivers want the drivers get". There's dedicated dispatch staff all over the show at the moment, including small stations like Welwyn North.

There will be moans but of a different kind. At least on a 700 there will be lots of room, unlike the claustrophobic 387s (fine if you get a seat, not much good squished in the aisles).

I expect overall people will be happier with the 700s than the 387s.

 

[bramling]

There will be moans but of a different kind. At least on a 700 there will be lots of room, unlike the claustrophobic 387s (fine if you get a seat, not much good squished in the aisles).

I expect overall people will be happier with the 700s than the 387s.

Can I place a small bet to the contrary? I suspect those nearer to London may find the 700s preferable, but for those any further out than about Hatfield I suspect there will be a very strong preference towards 387s and 365s (with the actual preference between those two types depending on whether one is able to get a seat on one's chosen service, and whether one likes or hates the hard seats!).

I predict that there will be a *lot* of dissatisfaction at some of the smugger stations like Hitchin, Letchworth, Royston, etc, plus anywhere where a long time is spent on the train, e.g. St Neots and Huntingdon.

 

[jopsuk]

It'll be interesting how they're received at the South Cambs villages. They definitely get more seats straight from 700 introduction (served by 4 car trains at the moment), and even more from Thameslink (double the off peak service) (though of course there's one station in South Cambs that won't be served by them)

 

[Bald Rick]

I've noticed Thameslink's Brighton services are predominantly 8-car 700s, even - or especially - during the peaks, in the direction of primary passenger flow.

The Three Bridges terminators seem to turn-out more 12-car units which feels counter-intuitive, though perhaps they are wedged between Redhill and the City?

Is the 12-car fleet, such as it is so far, concentrated north of the Thames in the times/directions of peak flow?

I trust that when 700 deliveries are complete and the service settles, 8-car to Brighton (and Littlehampton come 2018) won't be the norm, as we were promised 12-car trains to offset the reduction in seats, like for like, versus class 319, 377 and 387 units.

It's temporary, as there are only 15 X 12 car units in service, compared to about 40 x 8 cars. I understand more 12s will be in service too, and at that point more Brihton / Three Bridges services become 12s. But yes, the 12s are concentrated north of the river in the peaks. Almost all of the trains from Bedford heading to at least Gatwick in the morning peak are 12 coaches.

 

[samuelmorris]

I've noticed Thameslink's Brighton services are predominantly 8-car 700s, even - or especially - during the peaks, in the direction of primary passenger flow.

The Three Bridges terminators seem to turn-out more 12-car units which feels counter-intuitive, though perhaps they are wedged between Redhill and the City?

Is the 12-car fleet, such as it is so far, concentrated north of the Thames in the times/directions of peak flow?

I trust that when 700 deliveries are complete and the service settles, 8-car to Brighton (and Littlehampton come 2018) won't be the norm, as we were promised 12-car trains to offset the reduction in seats, like for like, versus class 319, 377 and 387 units.

I'm pretty sure this is a temporary situation caused by the number of 8-car 700s having been delivered far outweighing the number of 12-car units they currently have. Once the main batch of 12-car units arrives in force then I'd expect the 8-car units to begin switching to the extra metro services. But this being GTR, who knows :P

 

[bramling]

It'll be interesting how they're received at the South Cambs villages. They definitely get more seats straight from 700 introduction (served by 4 car trains at the moment), and even more from Thameslink (double the off peak service) (though of course there's one station in South Cambs that won't be served by them)

Are there many, or even any, up services where the village stations are normally unlikely to get a seat today, even on a 4-car?

My feeling is that many AM peak passengers from these stations at present must change somewhere onto a faster service, simply because the current services (0755 Cambridge-KX excepted!) tend to still be fairly empty by around Hitchin.

It might make for a more spacious off-peak journey, but passengers from these stations to London will still have an extremely slow journey. Personally, if I used these stations, I'd perhaps prefer an hourly semi-fast service to London rather than having to mess around stopping at places like Knebworth and Hatfield on every trip.

 

[swt_passenger]

I've noticed Thameslink's Brighton services are predominantly 8-car 700s, even - or especially - during the peaks, in the direction of primary passenger flow.

AIUI there are only 11 x 12 car diagrams at the moment, but 55 in the full fleet. On the other hand there are now nearly 40 x 8 cars in use out of a future total of 60.

So I think what is being seen today will bear little or no resemblance to the final balance of usage across sub-routes, i.e. use of 8 cars on some Brighton services now is not a precedent.

 

[jon0844]

As far as I know 12-car trains on the GN have to be dispatched, everything else platform monitors/mirrors.

12 cars are always dispatched but in theory the 387s and 700s could be dispatched by the driver using the onboard DOO monitors - but they're not.

Other trains are dispatched where there are only platform mirrors in place, and then only during hours of darkness, but increasingly problems with the onboard equipment on the 387s is meaning 387s need to dispatched on ANY platform during daylight, or skip the station.

This could mean stations needing to be staffed with station assistants 24/7, which would be very costly and mean many of them doing very little (being there 'just in case'). The role does also contain customer service, but some stations are very quiet between peaks.

Can I place a small bet to the contrary? I suspect those nearer to London may find the 700s preferable, but for those any further out than about Hatfield I suspect there will be a very strong preference towards 387s and 365s (with the actual preference between those two types depending on whether one is able to get a seat on one's chosen service, and whether one likes or hates the hard seats!).

I predict that there will be a *lot* of dissatisfaction at some of the smugger stations like Hitchin, Letchworth, Royston, etc, plus anywhere where a long time is spent on the train, e.g. St Neots and Huntingdon.

I think when all trains are 8 car, the 387s may be preferable to partially retract my earlier statement.

Maybe if the 387s stay then in 10 years from now, they'll get a capacity upgrade by getting rid of tables and adding more seats? Or they'll go on a route where they are more suited.

The GN route is going to keep needing more capacity, and off peak when things are quieter, the 700s will be fine for getting a seat IMO.

 

[Hadders]

Off Peak the increase in the number of trains running will see an overall increase in seats but I've long suspected we're going to end up on the GN with fewer seats in the peaks.

I did an analysis of the current number of services between Stevenage and London during the peaks as part of my response to the timetable consultation. In the morning peak the proposed timetable sees just one more train being run across the whole of the morning peak (there is actually a significant reduction as all of the Moorgate services will e bustituted but that's a different matter)

What we don't know is what the train lengths will be but everything today is already 8 or 12 cars (except for one very early service which is 4 car). Clearly an increase from 8 to 12 will be an increase in capacity but my suspicion is that there will be few of these - remember most of the 700s are 8-car so not everything will be able to go from 8 to 12. My suspicion is that the Cambridge services will be 8-car with some of the Peterboroughs running as 12s.

The evening peak is harder to analyse as we don't know what the VTEC services will be.

 

[Failed Unit]

Must admit not looking forward to the 700s in the week myself. Having already seen a significant reduction in capacity from the removal of the 317 / 321s replacement by 700s won't go down well. The 0755 wgc - London service I suspect will be very uncomfortable.

However we know stations south of Stevenage will all get a worse service (except Welwyn north for some reason) but be interesting to see with more service stopping at Finsbury Park if people from Stevenage and above will avoid the stoppers.

Conversely they cant come soon enough at the weekend. End the will I be able to board at all we currently have with the 4 car trains.

 

[BRX]

Am I right in understanding this is the last week 319s will be on Thameslink duties? Not sure if the final day will be Friday or at the weekend.

 

[urpert]

Currently sitting at Bellingham in shiny out of the box 700042. The good news is that they’ve made the PA system work properly; the bad news is that the driver’s just used it to announce “a problem in the cab”.

Edit: DOO monitors out apparently. Now running fast to Blackfriars.

 

[swt_passenger]

Am I right in understanding this is the last week 319s will be on Thameslink duties? Not sure if the final day will be Friday or at the weekend.

Yes you are, last day Sunday. Diagrams are in the 319 thread: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=3100864&postcount=656

 

[Spartacus]

the bad news is that the driver’s just used it to announce “a problem in the cab”.

Some have suggested that's it's main use!

 

[urpert]

To be fair, I’m a regular user of 700s and this is the first time one has sat down on me.

(Ended up turning short at Blackfriars, 16 minutes down.)

 

[387star]

Just seen a brand new 700 with tables fitted in standard

 

[Trainspotter74]

Is Sunday also the last day for the 377/5s on Bedford to Brighton?

 

[urpert]

I’ve jinxed it. On 700014 which has no lights inside and the driver is struggling to release the rear 4 at each stop.

 

[bramling]

Maybe if the 387s stay then in 10 years from now, they'll get a capacity upgrade by getting rid of tables and adding more seats? Or they'll go on a route where they are more suited.

Apart from taking out the luggage racks and squashing the seats up against the windows, there's not that much which can be done with the 387s. The 365 just effortlessly seems to achieve a great compromise between providing comfortable seating, plenty of it, and at the same time a decent amount of standing space.

The GN route is going to keep needing more capacity

This is the root of so many problems. The home counties are getting increasingly fed up with London dumping its overspill beyond its boundaries. If London wants to keep on expanding, how about it finds a way of housing all the extra people within its existing footprint? The Grenfell disaster has shown how there is a massive housing problem in London. My local paper is filled with letters and stories along the lines of "no more houses in XXX". The likes of Hertfordshire just can't take it, and why should they?

 

[jon0844]

Get rid of some tables on the 387s (like they did on the 365s) and reduce the leg room. Perhaps get rid of some of the vertical luggage racks.

I am sure you could gain a few seats, but you won't improve open spaces without changing the seats entirely for a narrower version without arm rests.

Perhaps the better solution would be more 700s and to cascade the 387s, but where to when there are going to be so many trains spare in 5 years?

A decision for the next franchise/contract.

 

[absolutelymilk]

The likes of Hertfordshire just can't take it, and why should they?

Why do you think Hertfordshire is less able to cope with new homes than London, which I believe is already fairly dense?

 

[bramling]

Why do you think Hertfordshire is less able to cope with new homes than London, which I believe is already fairly dense?

I didn't say London was able to cope - it's patently clear that London isn't coping either. It's not the first time London has overspilled, just that this time the surrounding area simply can't take it. (Whether the new towns and expanded towns last century are a success is a moot point - the area could at least sustain them).

As for the home counties struggling to cope - housing, transport, health, education and utilities are all under stress.

 

[bramling]

Get rid of some tables on the 387s (like they did on the 365s) and reduce the leg room. Perhaps get rid of some of the vertical luggage racks.

I am sure you could gain a few seats, but you won't improve open spaces without changing the seats entirely for a narrower version without arm rests.

Perhaps the better solution would be more 700s and to cascade the 387s, but where to when there are going to be so many trains spare in 5 years?

A decision for the next franchise/contract.

Personally, I'd get rid of the luggage stacks on the 387s as a start point and sort out the ridiculous first-class situation. The luggage stacks just aren't a good use of space - at busy times they end up with people sitting on them, and at other times they're not really necessary. Even just having extra standing space would help.

Beyond that, I think you're probably right that the seats would have to be changed - which given the unpopularity of the ironing boards might actually be well received anyway! I definitely wouldn't bother with armrests. Getting more and more like a 365 with every change...

Part of the problem is that the 387 is a typical "leasing company" train - it's designed with a compromise layout that allows it to be used on virtually any kind of service. Broadly the same interior design can be seen working anything from Southern 'metro' to express workings to much further afield. To be fair, the 365 could be said to have worked out the same - just that somehow the designers managed to achieve the compromise so much better.

One other point - the change to the interior layout on the 365s wasn't about fitting in extra seats. As far as I can tell it was about creating priority seats which are required to have extra legroom. Getting rid of table bays allowed this to be done as they take up very slightly more room than unidirectional seats. Of course, in reality, all that happens is that regulars know which seats have more legroom than others, and guess which ones are now quickly taken, therefore making them less available to those they are designed for?... Just this afternoon I witnessed the reduction in table seats cause a squabble - family board a very lightly loaded train at Stevenage and then more or less demand someone else move their stuff so they could share a table with a single person, they were more-or-less told to F off and in the end they went off sulking to find a table somewhere else in the train. The joys of school holidays!