Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[jon0844]

That seems ridiculous to me. You should be out of your seat before the train stops, as the majority of people are. And tables don't really make too much of a difference, especially not on a crowded train. You are literally saving about a second, maybe two seconds of time by omitting tables. Not enough to warrant them not being there in my opinion.

I actually think that the argument stands if the tables were so big that someone going through the core sits in an aisle seats, takes out a laptop and plugs it in.. then the window seat person wants to get off..

But if small tables are fitted, like the 365 ones, then you could put a cup of coffee there and your phone, but realistically won't be able to use a laptop. Thus, the likelihood of someone causing problems is vastly reduced.

These are not Intercity trains where people can be up and ready to get off miles before the stop.

The DfT for all of its faults were probably right to go without tables, but smaller tables (or even fold down cup holders?) should have been considered instead.

All I really want is a place for a drink, or to plop my phone down on. Anyone that wants more could pay the extra for first class (or claim it on expenses). Likewise, if I had to do work and was going to be on the train for longer than 20-25 minutes, I'd consider paying too (if it wasn't the case that the rear end is declassified anyway).

 

[317 forever]

I have seen a half-hourly Thameslink service stopping at Redhill. I wonder whether many such workings are operated by 700s yet, especially on Saturdays?

 

[AM9]

That seems ridiculous to me. You should be out of your seat before the train stops, as the majority of people are. And tables don't really make too much of a difference, especially not on a crowded train. You are literally saving about a second, maybe two seconds of time by omitting tables. Not enough to warrant them not being there in my opinion.

Apparently, live tests were performed on mockups of the passenger saloon where the dwell times required were measured. The results showed that there was a significant difference when the temptation to clutter up aisle seat tables when fitted was there. I can only go by what that member reported here. Don't forget, the trains are supposed to have a service life in excess of 30 years which means that they must cope with the anticipated growth in passenger levels for that period. If the trains failed to cope with that level, which looks like it may be reached in the next 10-15 years, the project will have failed.
The trains are at maximum length for the routes, their capacity is greater than any 160/240m train in the country, ATO will allow the highest fequency on a main line route with stops, and all this to be acheived on legacy victorian infrastructure. There is no plan to build more tracks through the core, so these trains have to deliver the required performance.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Don't forget, the trains are supposed to have a service life in excess of 30 years which means that they must cope with the anticipated growth in passenger levels for that period. If the trains failed to cope with that level, which looks like it may be reached in the next 10-15 years, the project will have failed.

I have already been on an 8 car 700 on a peak hour working from St Pancras to Sutton on a day where everything was running to time that was literally standing room only ( throughout, assuming the overhead loading displays were correct! ) from City Thameslink to Streatham.

When I say standing room only, I don't mean simply that all the seats were taken, I mean it was a shoulder to shoulder standing loading. I was in the 7th carriage on this occasion which is some way back from where the heaviest crowds form on the platforms.

Is that ominous?

 

[urpert]

The issue is that they appear to have gone for the bargain basement interior. I've no problem with the walk through carriages, wide doors, parge standing areas etc. But why not use seats similar to those on, say, a 455, why no seat back tables (small ones will do as on the 365s). Why no tables for the bay seats (again they don't need to be full tables the triangular ones as per the 365s will do). There's also insufficient litter bins inside the 700s, the few I've been on have had litter strewn inside them.

I'm sure the trains mechanically are great and will do a superb job of moving large numbers of people. What I don't get is the lack of attention to detail in the interior design.

Ageeed about the bins. I'm on one at the moment:

 

[Bald Rick]

I have already been on an 8 car 700 on a peak hour working from St Pancras to Sutton on a day where everything was running to time that was literally standing room only ( throughout, assuming the overhead loading displays were correct! ) from City Thameslink to Streatham.

When I say standing room only, I don't mean simply that all the seats were taken, I mean it was a shoulder to shoulder standing loading. I was in the 7th carriage on this occasion which is some way back from where the heaviest crowds form on the platforms.

Is that ominous?

It certainly is.

Last week I, and about another 100 people, were unable to board a 12 car 700 at St Albans in the morning peak as it was so full. Ominously, there were no cancellations in the previous hour, nothing was running late, and no short forms.

This has happened around 20 years early.

 

[Abpj17]

I actually think that the argument stands if the tables were so big that someone going through the core sits in an aisle seats, takes out a laptop and plugs it in.. then the window seat person wants to get off..

No it doesn't. That just annoys those of us that want to use a laptop by provided tables that are too small (and the person sitting opposite us whose space is at risk of encroachment). You just stand and leave your laptop on the table..the laptop isn't any more of a block than a cup of coffee or phone.

Laptops hold charges far better than iphones in any case - it's phones I see plugged in most often not laptops. And that coffee cup if left on the table is at risk of getting knocked over.

Bald Rick - that's not good. Did passengers at some carriages fare better than others? (I've been on 700s that were full by St Albans even at the back before)

On the earlier fast/semi-fast debate. I know it's never going to get any better...but I do wish sometimes those of us with stations that the fast ones don't stop (aka Leagrave and Harlington) could get a degree of preference! In peak, the semi-fasts usually follow the fasts by four minutes so it's not a problem. But when the order switches, it's frustrating if you can't get on the first one and the second one doesn't call at your station (but would have got most other passengers where they wanted to be no more than a few minutes later).

 

[hwl]

I have already been on an 8 car 700 on a peak hour working from St Pancras to Sutton on a day where everything was running to time that was literally standing room only ( throughout, assuming the overhead loading displays were correct! ) from City Thameslink to Streatham.

When I say standing room only, I don't mean simply that all the seats were taken, I mean it was a shoulder to shoulder standing loading. I was in the 7th carriage on this occasion which is some way back from where the heaviest crowds form on the platforms.

Is that ominous?

No I'm not surprised - the passenger loadings inwards of Streatham seem far higher than official stats suggest hence I suspect some methodology issues. Some of the GTR 2018 proposals will help and the reduced Southern London Bridge service via Tulse Hill has probably pushed more towards Thameslink Blackfriars services during the rebuild so it might recover a bit in 22 months.
An interesting parallel is one of the Orpington (/BMS) via Herne Hill am peak Thameslink services suddenly entering the top 10 most crowded when they discovered the service actually existed! The ammount it is rammed hadn't changed to suddenly get in the top 10.
Also worth a glance and TfL's TSLO proposal sfrom Jan 2016.

 

[jon0844]

No it doesn't. That just annoys those of us that want to use a laptop by provided tables that are too small (and the person sitting opposite us whose space is at risk of encroachment). You just stand and leave your laptop on the table..the laptop isn't any more of a block than a cup of coffee or phone.

There really isn't room for a laptop from most of the seats though. I have used mine (a MacBook Air) on the tiny 365 tables in standard, or a table in first on a 321, but otherwise I will leave it in my bag. Just as I do on the tube, a bus etc.

It's a limitation I'm used to and accept. If the facing seats had a small table, that would probably be a good solution for off peak usage. I would be even less likely to pull out the laptop on a very busy peak train.

Fortunately, I could do most of what I do on my phone anyway. I appreciate not everyone is the same as me, but frankly the 700s aren't ever going to be practical mobile offices.

And as for the coffee cups. I don't leave cups behind, so I'd take mine with me or use the bin. Having flown many times, I would always pick up a drink if someone wanted to pass too.

 

[JonathanH]

I have seen a half-hourly Thameslink service stopping at Redhill. I wonder whether many such workings are operated by 700s yet, especially on Saturdays?

Yes, most of the Thameslink services via Redhill are 700s now, including on Saturdays. Thameslink do not use 319s on the services via East Croydon and only have enough 377/5s to diagram 6 pairs in service now. As the Bedford-Brighton-Bedford-Three Bridges-Bedford workings on Saturdays require something like 21 workings, most are now 700s.

If you look at the ukmodernemu emu group, an anonymous source has posted the Thameslink workings still diagrammed for units other than 700s.

 

[dewsnapsliding]

I have already been on an 8 car 700 on a peak hour working from St Pancras to Sutton on a day where everything was running to time that was literally standing room only ( throughout, assuming the overhead loading displays were correct! ) from City Thameslink to Streatham.

When I say standing room only, I don't mean simply that all the seats were taken, I mean it was a shoulder to shoulder standing loading. I was in the 7th carriage on this occasion which is some way back from where the heaviest crowds form on the platforms.

Is that ominous?

Blame the Wimbledon MP who campaigned against 15 min frequency on the loop. That said, you wouldn't be on a direct St Pancras to Sutton had he not!
The decision not to increase the frequency will need to be reconsidered at some point with the consequent curtailment of the service at Blackfriars.

 

[physics34]

Blame the Wimbledon MP who campaigned against 15 min frequency on the loop. That said, you wouldn't be on a direct St Pancras to Sutton had he not!
The decision not to increase the frequency will need to be reconsidered at some point with the consequent curtailment of the service at Blackfriars.

was a silly decision. Terminating at Blackfriars wouldve been fine and made sense

 

[physics34]

In the peak, I believe that saturation of the available capacity would have been reached within the next 10 years on Thameslink had we stayed with Electrostars, - especially the 387s which have less than 10 more seats than and a lot less standing room. There would be a double impact on capacity because the dwell times would get longer and the timetable would be cut back to improve reliability.
The 700s are designed to handle larger numbers from the outset and because of that, can operate a high frequency timetable with short headways and short dwells. The saturation point will come many years later (assuming the same growth curve).

As for the job to "sort out a way of running more trains", - they are doing the maximum possible with current signalling, traction control and passenger accommodation technologies/practice. There are posters here claiming that the system will fall down regularly reducing the service to less than before the programme started. They may be right in their fears.
In 10-20 years time when the trains are halfway through their service life, these design decisions will really be put to the test. I very much doubt that the funds to duplicate the core infrastructure would ever be available so they have to deliver the capacity that is expected.

id say with the windmill bridge improvements in the future and the possibilty of ATO south of New Cross Gate (as i think was mentioned CP6?) maybe there will be options for more services.

In a decade or two id hope that there would be ways of increasing capacity...or maybe the number of commuters settles down, that would not affect the amount of seats on the train. An "All Standing Railway" is a horrible thought! We have to remember that not just commuters will use these services.

Theres a good chance in the future i may use these units to travel from East Croydon to Cambridge. Id like a comfortable 1 hour 45 minute journey.

 

[physics34]

The elephant in the room is of course the total failure to control population growth in London, and the associated massive effect this has had on London's housing market, with a ripple effect now extending further and further outwards from London. Maybe Brexit will ease things a little, but one way or the other I don't remember mass population growth being on any electoral manifesto. There has to come a point where we say enough is enough and we can't keep providing infrastructure only for it to be immediately used up. We are coming to the point where we can't do that anyway, as the London area is physically running out of space, and even where interventions are physically possible the costs are becoming immense.

agree, dont get me started on the increasing population, through immigration and the secondary affects of immigration (high birth rates) and an overreliance on London generally . We seriously need to start building housing and creating a sub-suburb around the green belt and M25 area. ..but this discussion is for another time lol

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Blame the Wimbledon MP who campaigned against 15 min frequency on the loop. That said, you wouldn't be on a direct St Pancras to Sutton had he not!
The decision not to increase the frequency will need to be reconsidered at some point with the consequent curtailment of the service at Blackfriars.

was a silly decision. Terminating at Blackfriars wouldve been fine and made sense

Would it be possible to overlay an extra half hourly service round the loop which does terminate at Blackfriars without screwing up the pathing in approaches to Blackfriars?

That would surely be the logical compromise solution? But is it in fact possible...?

 

[southern442]

Would it be possible to overlay an extra half hourly service round the loop which does terminate at Blackfriars without screwing up the pathing in approaches to Blackfriars?

That would surely be the logical compromise solution? But is it in fact possible...?

It would be more realistic when the Brighton ones start going via London Bridge again. How many trains use the bays per hour off-peak?

 

[phil281]

It would be more realistic when the Brighton ones start going via London Bridge again. How many trains use the bays per hour off-peak?

Rumour has it that the extra loop services will be southern services going into London Bridge using freed up stock when other southern services go over to thameslink (eg London bridge to horsham)

 

[urpert]

It would be more realistic when the Brighton ones start going via London Bridge again. How many trains use the bays per hour off-peak?

None at all Mon-Fri, 2tph Sevenoaks at the weekend. After 2018 there should be 2 Sevenoaks terminators per hour every day.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Might help if more than a 4 car (319) was put onto the reduced Sunday services - specifically the 1756 BFRS - Luton tonight , crush loaded to at least Elstree....(service today was only 2 fast and 2 slow , - not enough capacity frankly ...)

 

[317 forever]

Yes, most of the Thameslink services via Redhill are 700s now, including on Saturdays. Thameslink do not use 319s on the services via East Croydon and only have enough 377/5s to diagram 6 pairs in service now. As the Bedford-Brighton-Bedford-Three Bridges-Bedford workings on Saturdays require something like 21 workings, most are now 700s.

If you look at the ukmodernemu emu group, an anonymous source has posted the Thameslink workings still diagrammed for units other than 700s.

Thank you for your prompt reassurance Jonathan. This may well enable me to visit the area in June. With so few 377/5s still with Thameslink, this may make it unlikely that they would cover successive workings now.

 

[Bald Rick]

Might help if more than a 4 car (319) was put onto the reduced Sunday services - specifically the 1756 BFRS - Luton tonight , crush loaded to at least Elstree....(service today was only 2 fast and 2 slow , - not enough capacity frankly ...)

My 1987 timetable shows that was the standard off peak service in the 'good old days'

 

[ChiefPlanner]

My 1987 timetable shows that was the standard off peak service in the 'good old days'

London and the South East is just a bit busier these days ......the absolute rock bottom was around 1992 when it was suggested the off peak Sunday service be reduced to a very semi- fast Bedford hourly pattern ........this thank God did not happen.

Judging by the tube today - (slightly off trend I know) - the loadings are almost weekday peaks .....

 

[Hadders]

London and the South East is just a bit busier these days ......the absolute rock bottom was around 1992 when it was suggested the off peak Sunday service be reduced to a very semi- fast Bedford hourly pattern ........this thank God did not happen.

Judging by the tube today - (slightly off trend I know) - the loadings are almost weekday peaks .....

I sometimes struggle to understand where all the passengers come from! Trains to and from London just seem to get busier and busier. It's always slightly amusing when non-regulars catch a train on a Sunday expecting it to be quiet only to be shocked at how packed it is!

Late night trains are another one. Often standing room after midnight - 20 years ago they were the proverbial two men and a dog.

 

[Segedunum]

I sometimes struggle to understand where all the passengers come from! Trains to and from London just seem to get busier and busier. It's always slightly amusing when non-regulars catch a train on a Sunday expecting it to be quiet only to be shocked at how packed it is!

Late night trains are another one. Often standing room after midnight - 20 years ago they were the proverbial two men and a dog.

Empty evening trains still exist sometimes if you go to the extremities. I had a 455 to myself on a weekday evening from Caterham to Purley back in December.

That said, the 700 I then jumped on was fairly full.

 

[jon0844]

I sometimes struggle to understand where all the passengers come from! Trains to and from London just seem to get busier and busier. It's always slightly amusing when non-regulars catch a train on a Sunday expecting it to be quiet only to be shocked at how packed it is!

Late night trains are another one. Often standing room after midnight - 20 years ago they were the proverbial two men and a dog.

The problem is, if you provide a good service (and Thameslink has increased the frequency of night trains has it not?) then people will feel more compelled to use it. Likewise, shiny new trains and stations will also help a lot.

I know the night tube has had mixed successes, but I do think more people will be happy to stay out later, and perhaps more people will go out because they can get home - so rather than spread out, the numbers will actually grow.

I know I can get home pretty much all night, bar Saturday night/Sunday morning, by train so I don't have that rush to leave somewhere as many do. It also means that I don't have any qualms about going into London by train as some might, because they know the last trains are quite early.

And I am amazed TOCs still seem to run a much reduced service on a Sunday.

 

[spark001uk]

Anyone know what these are? They're taking the TL route. My first thought was a 700 or 707001/002?

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K96089/2017/03/20/advanced

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K96090/2017/03/21/advanced

 

[southern442]

Empty evening trains still exist sometimes if you go to the extremities. I had a 455 to myself on a weekday evening from Caterham to Purley back in December.

That said, the 700 I then jumped on was fairly full.

I've been on a Caterham to Purley service several times before and they are incredibly lightly loaded. One of the only suburban London services in the evening you can still get a carriage to yourself! Southern also run a few West Croydon - London Bridge non stop runs in the peak which are also almost empty, can be a fun journey to take.

 

[387star]

Change here for other national rail services ...

Anyone else think this is pointless lol

 

[Deepgreen]

Change here for other national rail services ...

Anyone else think this is pointless lol

Yes. The 700s tell us to change at East Croydon for other National Rail services AND for trains to Clapham Junction and Victoria (as if these are different from other NR services!).

My class 700 yesterday (700108 I think) refused to tell us anything other than the advice that "platform surfaces may be slippery" - even though rain fails to make concrete, asphalt or brick paviors significantly more slippery at all - only ice does so. Why does the falling of rain seemingly trigger such dire and pointless warnings? No other information (such as the little matter of the stopping pattern, for example) was presented at all. Yet another 'safety' message that ignores the facts and only serves to turn passengers more and more against these pointless recorded messages. Is this sort of useless message selection activated manually, or was this yet another class 700 system failure, I wonder?

 

[ComUtoR]

Sadly we live in a culture where people are not responsible for their own actions. If they stopped claiming compensation I have no doubt the announcements will fade into obscurity.

Blame the people who caused all this, rather those that have to allow for the Darwinism of the human race.

We had a thread the other week requesting warnings about trains going through platforms at speed. That very same poster often bemoans pointless announcements.