Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[physics34]

Surprised everyone is obsessed with the PIS working/not working, there are still issues with the original 377 and 455 PIS!

 

[jon0844]

Surprised everyone is obsessed with the PIS working/not working, there are still issues with the original 377 and 455 PIS!

Indeed, I find it annoying on ALL trains without it. I am wondering why they still haven't fixed the (GPS related?) problems on the 317s which always show the time as 00:00.

I guess the trains will have gone before I ever get to see if they will fix them.

 

[bramling]

Surprised everyone is obsessed with the PIS working/not working, there are still issues with the original 377 and 455 PIS!

This does seem to be one thing the industry just can't seem to get working reliably, pretty much across the board. So many trains have just a blank PIS, or the worse situation of announcements/displays out of step with reality.

As far as the Undesirable Cities are concerned, personally I'm more bothered about the seating being awful. Those who have specified this horrible train have shown contempt for passengers when the seating was specified and designed, so why should we expect the PIS to work well? Maybe the same contempt for those passengers who rely on audible or visual information as those who (rightly) expect a comfortable journey.

 

[samuelmorris]

My attitude to PIS is that on a route where the train will always stop at every station on a route, e.g. branches, metro services and so on, it's not so much an issue. On routes like Thameslink, however, where the calling pattern is so often different, it really is of great importance - not just for those unfamiliar with the area, but anybody who doesn't catch that same train every day.

Further to that, I've only had one or two out of maybe 7 or 8 trips on a 700 with no PIS operating, but on my last journey, the PIS could not be updated to show that the train was no longer calling at most of its stops due to late running. The driver made an announcement to that effect which is fine, but when the display is still reeling off the original calling pattern, it's easy to forget what the driver may have said. In 2016 with brand new rolling stock, that shouldn't still be an issue.

With regard to the seating, I'll spare people the hyperbole, but I have to admit, I do not find it comfortable in a lot of the airline seat positions. The actual seat is fine despite how firm it is, but there just isn't quite enough legroom for me. An extra inch or two is all it would take. First class is, for the first time I can remember on GTR since 319s, actually worthy of its designation, given how much more room there is, the fact there are tables and plug sockets, and it was comfortable. Trouble is, there's no first class on an Oyster card. It's not even the money, the concept of having to buy a paper ticket, the extra time it can take, the lack of automatic journey reporting etc. is enough to put me off. I appreciate smartcard ticketing is available but it's probably not worth it for someone like me that, apart from using the core as a tube line, only strays south of Blackfriars once or twice a month at most, and never goes north of St Pancras. So for me, standard class it is, almost universally. That's fine, as in the core I'm happy to stand, but on the half hour trip from Blackfriars to East Croydon I'd much rather be in a facing seat, than with another seatback right in front of me.

 

[Alteran Ancient]

As far as the Undesirable Cities are concerned, personally I'm more bothered about the seating being awful. Those who have specified this horrible train have shown contempt for passengers when the seating was specified and designed, so why should we expect the PIS to work well?

Granted, the seating does somewhat feel like a step back when you compare it to what we had in the 377s. However, if you look at commuter rail of other modern cities, e.g. The Stuttgart S-Bah, which is run by DBAG 423s and 430s, the seating is actually quite comparable to what we are getting in standard on the 700s.

That is an example of a service that is fit-for-purpose, which is high frequency, deals with the passenger demands and just gets the job done. I'm sure many other European cities function in the same fashion. The majority of people will be commuting to somewhere in the Thameslink Core, and hopefully not on the service for longer than 20-30 minutes.

I'm pretty sure we've heard all the criticisms by now. There's no need to continue being hostile about it. If you're that passionate about it, perhaps you could convey that passion into a letter to GTR, the DfT, or to your MP.

 

[Deepgreen]

Given her actions on the train (going from trying to sleep, to crying, to talking to herself) I'd say she wasn't quite with it.

But public transport is for all, and as I said, from being at the back of the train, even I wasn't always sure what station we were at because not all platforms have signs you can see from the far end.

It is unacceptable to have so many trains running without adequate information, and while the usual counter argument is that surely I wouldn't want a train cancelled over faulty screens, but I would say that someone should be taking a financial penalty for it EVERY time.

Look at AGA which took no interest in fixing the problem with the 379s having more than 50% of the buttons broken, and near impossible to use by anyone with poor eyesight, or even being unable to accurately press a button with a diameter of some 5mm!

They too said on social media over and over how much they care, yada yada. I think it took AGA/Bombardier some two years to fix!

Yes, absolutely, and not least because all the TOCs (at least the many I have dealt with) bleat on about how seriously they take the issue, but have continued over decades to fail to get to grips with it.

 

[talldave]

Do TOCs get hit with a financial penalty for non-working PIS? No? There's your answer then - they don't care because it doesn't cost them to do nothing whereas it would cost to do something.

 

[jon0844]

Do TOCs get hit with a financial penalty for non-working PIS? No? There's your answer then - they don't care because it doesn't cost them to do nothing whereas it would cost to do something.

I have asked a few times here without an answer; does Siemens get hit with a penalty if it puts out trains without working PIS?

If not, why not? It seems the drivers are doing everything correctly, but there's a communication error between the system they use and the PIS itself. That must be a train fault.

 

[AM9]

Granted, the seating does somewhat feel like a step back when you compare it to what we had in the 377s. However, if you look at commuter rail of other modern cities, e.g. The Stuttgart S-Bah, which is run by DBAG 423s and 430s, the seating is actually quite comparable to what we are getting in standard on the 700s.

That is an example of a service that is fit-for-purpose, which is high frequency, deals with the passenger demands and just gets the job done. I'm sure many other European cities function in the same fashion. The majority of people will be commuting to somewhere in the Thameslink Core, and hopefully not on the service for longer than 20-30 minutes.

I'm pretty sure we've heard all the criticisms by now. There's no need to continue being hostile about it. If you're that passionate about it, perhaps you could convey that passion into a letter to GTR, the DfT, or to your MP.

The most important thing is that the initial teething troubles (seemingly with brakes and doors at stopping points) and the St Albans North neutral section problem have been fixed or reduced to below the level of problems on so-called 'reliable trains'.
I went on the infamous 1W96 last Thursday form St Pancras to St Albans. It swallowed nearly everybody on the platform in seconds and spat nearly half of them out just as quickly less than 20 minutes later at St Albans. The ride, despite standing, was fine and the air conditioning worked as intended. It ran bang on time. That's what the trains are for - no drama or excitement. The only downside was the PIS which looked very (well completely) dark. Given the noise that GTR made about it on launch, I imagine now they have fixed all the most important issues, they will get that working, before the GN trains start through the core hopefully.

 

[peterborough31]

Class 700 at new 700 sidings north of Peterborough about 5.50pm. Didnt get number as I was driving. Looked to giving new carriage wash a trial run.

 

[SPADTrap]

So the 700s first Peterborough didn't go well with it losing shoes and sustaining damage. Although I'm not surprised.

 

[samuelmorris]

After having made those remarks earlier, I travelled on 700111 today where the PIS was disabled entirely. Noticeably no announcements from the driver to compensate for that fact so perhaps they were unaware, or perhaps it's policy not to bother?
700113 on the return leg the PIS was working fine, including the TfL travel info which I haven't seen since I last used a London Bridge service, is it confined to just that route still? I've used 700s into Blackfriars from East Croydon numerous occasions and even when everything else on the PIS works, never seen the TfL status screen show up on any service that runs through the core.

Although some issues I'm sure were expected, I definitely am surprise that it got as far as sending a 700 down the line to PBO at any significant speed and have it rip shoes off. That seems quite poor given how long they've had to plan it...

 

[AlexNL]

I'm reading a lot of complaints about the PIS on various kinds of rolling stock in this thread alone: 700, 377, 455, 456, and so on.

I've been on quite a lot of trains in quite a number of countries (Netherlands, Germany, Belgium and Sweden to name a few) and I can count the number of times that I encountered a non-functional or faulty PIS on one hand. So what's so different about the PIS on UK trains compared to the PIS systems that can be seen in mainland Europe?

 

[asylumxl]

So the 700s first Peterborough didn't go well with it losing shoes and sustaining damage. Although I'm not surprised.

Could you elaborate please?

 

[TRAX]

With SNCF in France, PIS has always been one of the few areas where everything basically works properly when enabled (which is not all the time but that's up to the drivers). Even on brand new trains, PIS issues are not a thing here across the stream.

 

[physics34]

I'm reading a lot of complaints about the PIS on various kinds of rolling stock in this thread alone: 700, 377, 455, 456, and so on.

I've been on quite a lot of trains in quite a number of countries (Netherlands, Germany, Belgium and Sweden to name a few) and I can count the number of times that I encountered a non-functional or faulty PIS on one hand. So what's so different about the PIS on UK trains compared to the PIS systems that can be seen in mainland Europe?

Basically the companies over here do everything on the Cheap, don't maintain things properly and don't really care about the public.

 

[samuelmorris]

I remember hearing that the reason the PIS on Abellio 321s is so ghastly was that, back then (must be 12-18 months ago) the chinese company that manufactured them went bust and they were having to get another company to retool to produce the running spares. Fact of the matter is, PIS devices do not use any consumable components - for the majority of the fleet to require replacement parts within 5 or 6 years of installation of the devices is ridiculous - given the dreadful quality of the units themselves, it annoys me they didn't just scrap the system and try another, presumably financial concerns stepped in. I don't see the units ever having reliable PIS until that is done, though. The way things currently proceed with that franchise, perhaps never.

I would say the system on the 700s looks like a quality product apart from the software issues (the 360/450 PIS systems seemed fine to me), but today I did notice one of the smaller screens on 700113 had a colour balance issue (the green was half the level of the other colours so everything had a pink tint) - not sure whether software is to blame for that. Only one screen was affected not the whole set, which makes sense given how I believe the system operates. The failure rate of the units in software isn't all that encouraging though I'll admit.

 

[Hadders]

Worth noting that the PIS on the 365s, which is now around 20 years old still works very well...

 

[jon0844]

I'm reading a lot of complaints about the PIS on various kinds of rolling stock in this thread alone: 700, 377, 455, 456, and so on.

I've been on quite a lot of trains in quite a number of countries (Netherlands, Germany, Belgium and Sweden to name a few) and I can count the number of times that I encountered a non-functional or faulty PIS on one hand. So what's so different about the PIS on UK trains compared to the PIS systems that can be seen in mainland Europe?

We simply don't seem to care. We have plenty of people who would sooner turn them off than have to listen to annoying announcements, which doesn't help!

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Worth noting that the PIS on the 365s, which is now around 20 years old still works very well...

As long as the driver sets it up, which sadly doesn't happen a lot of the time.

 

[Class377/5]

700023 arrived this morning. Now have 31x 700.

 

[D365]

Worth noting that the PIS on the 365s, which is now around 20 years old still works very well...

No it doesn't. 90% of the time it has not been set up or is too faulty to be comprehensible.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So the 700s first Peterborough didn't go well with it losing shoes and sustaining damage. Although I'm not surprised.

Could you elaborate please?

Yeah, please do.

 

[bramling]

We simply don't seem to care. We have plenty of people who would sooner turn them off than have to listen to annoying announcements, which doesn't help!

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


As long as the driver sets it up, which sadly doesn't happen a lot of the time.

The issue with the 365 is that the options originally provided were relevant in 1997, but things have moved on, with different stopping patterns etc. Allegedly FCC mislaid the discs containing the software for making changes.

In terms of doing what it was designed to do it generally works very well and reliably. But as soon as a slightly non-standard destination or stopping pattern is needed then the system can't be used.

 

[GodAtum]

PIS! PIS! That's very futuristic, my HST's dont have them, only pieces of paper :roll:

 

[asylumxl]

PIS! PIS! That's very futuristic, my HST's dont have them, only pieces of paper :roll:

Probably more reliable. I hear that PIS actually stands for "probably isn't serviceable".

Speaking of PIS, I was on 700114 yesterday and a few times the audio announcements would begin to stutter and sound like a Dalek.

 

[D365]

The issue with the 365 is that the options originally provided were relevant in 1997, but things have moved on, with different stopping patterns etc. Allegedly FCC mislaid the discs containing the software for making changes.

Ah, 1997... that takes me back.

Discs? What discs? I'm pretty sure they would have been floppies

 

[bengley]

I reckon a considerable number of the PIS issues are down to the incorrect code being provided on the driver's diagram.

Surely a sensible solution would be to allow us to select the destination of the train from a list, then adjust the stopping pattern accordingly. The obsession of having PIS codes on modern stock just doesn't work if the company don't provide the correct codes.

 

[Via Bank]

I reckon a considerable number of the PIS issues are down to the incorrect code being provided on the driver's diagram.

Surely a sensible solution would be to allow us to select the destination of the train from a list, then adjust the stopping pattern accordingly. The obsession of having PIS codes on modern stock just doesn't work if the company don't provide the correct codes.

Frankly I'm astonished PIS codes are still required. Why can't the driver simply enter the running ID of her train and have it download the calling pattern itself (double bonus - if a special stop/non-stop order is added, the driver doesn't need to add it to the PIS herself)? Why can't she set the calling pattern herself if necessary?

It smells strongly of something that's been implemented that way because it's "familiar" without any consideration as to whether it's actually fit for purpose.

 

[Fincra5]

I reckon a considerable number of the PIS issues are down to the incorrect code being provided on the driver's diagram.

Surely a sensible solution would be to allow us to select the destination of the train from a list, then adjust the stopping pattern accordingly. The obsession of having PIS codes on modern stock just doesn't work if the company don't provide the correct codes.

Aye, that happens quite a lot! And some of the "default" codes we have on another document (not handed out) don't work anymore either.

 

[Class2ldn]

I had the 8 car on Monday, code on sheet was correct but wasn't in database on the train. Had to get a generic code

 

[Marklund]

So the 700s first Peterborough didn't go well with it losing shoes and sustaining damage. Although I'm not surprised.

High ballast shoulders?