Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[asylumxl]

'Unacceptable' is just a subjective statement unless it ithe actual frequency of occurence is stated, i.e. not just an assumption based on random postings of anecdotes here.

Anecdotal evidence?

It's been acknowledged that the 700s are rather finicky about where exactly they stop on the platform.

While the majority of times there's only a delay of 30 seconds or so, it seems it's a (minor) issue the parties involved are willing to let drag on until ATO is in use.

 

[Domh245]

Anecdotal evidence?

It's been acknowledged that the 700s are rather finicky about where exactly they stop on the platform.

While the majority of times there's only a delay of 30 seconds or so, it seems it's a (minor) issue the parties involved are willing to let drag on until ATO is in use.

Yes, anecdotal evidence. There isn't any evidence to suggest that this is some kind of epidemic, it is mostly just a number of posts on here (which represent a tiny number of the total amount of journeys taken). And the issue should be solved once the drivers are more confident in the train and can start stopping it where it needs to be stopped.

 

[talldave]

We can make endless excuses for why it's apparently OK to blunder on with this door fault, but as an engineer who's had to create things to match a specification, I would ask what the specified tolerance is on train stop position and whether the doors are operating over the full range (assuming that that is the problem that's causing extended door opening delays).

It it's not operating to specification, then it's wrong and needs fixing. If the specification's too tight for the drivers to work to, then it needs revisiting.

It can't be that difficult to debug, but apparently either it is or someone can't be bothered. Meanwhile, passengers are inconvenienced - not a lot, but enough to niggle.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Is it an updated version of the ASDO that SWT's have on their Desiros?

 

[swt_passenger]

I did suggest last time you asked exactly the same question, that it is most unlikely, because the system used on SWT Desiros was a third party retrofit, (Hima Sella Tracklink 3), and on the Desiro City it was an original requirement, and is embedded into the ATO and ETCS systems provided by Siemens. It also apparently reads its data from the ETCS Eurobalises rather than dedicated balises as on SWT.

It would be useful for an insider to explain exactly what system is used though.

 

[asylumxl]

We can make endless excuses for why it's apparently OK to blunder on with this door fault, but as an engineer who's had to create things to match a specification, I would ask what the specified tolerance is on train stop position and whether the doors are operating over the full range (assuming that that is the problem that's causing extended door opening delays).

It it's not operating to specification, then it's wrong and needs fixing. If the specification's too tight for the drivers to work to, then it needs revisiting.

It can't be that difficult to debug, but apparently either it is or someone can't be bothered. Meanwhile, passengers are inconvenienced - not a lot, but enough to niggle.

Don't you know, everyone on this forum who isn't rail staff is an uninformed enthusiasts. We don't have jobs or experience in similar industries :roll: .

In other fields of engineering, such a problem would need to be addressed as per the terms of contract and penalties may even be applied, as I'm sure you know. I'm 100% sure this is true of Siemens' and the 700 order.

But instead we have people incessantly condescending to other forum members and telling us 700s are the best thing since sliced bread.

 

[Saint66]

I still haven't experienced this door issue, despite multiple trips on 700's by the point. Maybe im just lucky, maybe not. I'm sure Siemens etc are working hard on a fix.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Is it still 6 Saturday diagrams or have these been increased?

 

[JonathanH]

Is it still 6 Saturday diagrams or have these been increased?

It was 7 when they were last posted
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2705312&postcount=5286

Given there hasn't been an increase (or change) in weekday workings from 7 it probably stands to reason that there won't be an increase at the weekend.

 

[Peter Sarf]

There's a divider so the rear or front three can be locked off it a defect requires it keeping the train in service temporary. These doors are connected to the SDO system so the closed section doors will not open.

Thanks for the info Class377/5. I imagine that could also be useful if a 700/1 (12 car) has to go onto a diagram meant for a 700/0. Then at least the passengers can be kept out of the coaches that will be hard to exit at shorter platforms. So it seems a 700/1 could have 12, 9, 6 or 3 usable coaches. Well 6 if the front of the train is allowed to be 3 coach lengths beyond a platform .

I am hoping the (rare) current door opening problems are preferable to running older units that are probably due/overdue maintenance as they are getting retired. That might make the current situation temporarily acceptable.

As for the leg room problem. I can see that having part of the fleet fitted/altered would introduce a lack of diagramming flexibility leading to the need for a few more units and sidings. BUT I suspect that non-window seat passengers will have to learn to stick their feet into the aisle so as to allow space for the feet of the passenger sat next to the window - that is unless commuters are to become more "friendly" !. I wonder if, once enough passengers have tripped over the feet in the aisle, the loss of aisle space caused by moving the seats away from the side of the coach will be seen as acceptable ?.

 

[Class377/5]

The door 'problem' is caused by the train/infrastructure acting as designed. The 700s are a lot more'picky' as that's what was asked for. The problem that modern requirements are for ever higher standards. The Tube system like the S stock is being driven around with similar specifications.

Now there has been some issues that quite contrary to somes opinions on here are not being ignored. There some changes being made in the background at high event locations like moving the boards. There's also the human element of this with drivers not yet driving the 700s like second nature as they are still new to them. This is settling down and improving. Worth noting that the problems are being addressed by all three parties involved and there isn't one magic fix to the minor delay at some stations at some points.

As for diagrams, IIRC it's 6 saturday, 2 Sunday with 7 during the week at present. Further changes to come during October.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Seems some, at least, of the door problems are "teething" problems really. If drivers have to get used to the trains then leaving the trains in sidings is not going to solve the problem. No gain without pain.

I have noticed a few places where an "ALL" stop board is placed within 6 feet of an "FLU" stop board - Gatwick maybe iirc. At East Croydon on 15/9 I noted two "FLU" bards at the London end of each of platforms 1, 2, 3 & 4 iirc within six feet of each other (one nearer the track than the other). Is that perhaps because the signs are being moved ?. Its all rather busy with signs !. With so many posts perhaps a better idea would be an "FLUstart" and "FLUend" sign so the drivers know they HAVE to be BETWEEN the signs ?. Just my amateur input .

 

[Islineclear3_1]

It was 7 when they were last posted
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2705312&postcount=5286

Given there hasn't been an increase (or change) in weekday workings from 7 it probably stands to reason that there won't be an increase at the weekend.

Sorry, I meant 7, thanks

 

[387star]

IWhat is the difference berween 387 seats and 700 seats?

They look the same yet they can't be if fitting tables is such a problem on the 700s (though they are noe coming)

 

[physics34]

IWhat is the difference berween 387 seats and 700 seats?

They look the same yet they can't be if fitting tables is such a problem on the 700s (though they are noe coming)

others will know more, but they are the same design but without armrest. Obviously the tables are fitted from new on the 387 seats i assume...

Dont think fitting tables is a "problem" its just that they chose not to have them fitted on the 700... cost and weight.

 

[swt_passenger]

IWhat is the difference berween 387 seats and 700 seats?

They look the same yet they can't be if fitting tables is such a problem on the 700s (though they are noe coming)

The seats with tables have a fundamentally different frame, AFAICS, the fixed parts of the hinge are factory welded to the tubing.

I believer the hinges are similarly integral with the seat frame on stock such as 450s, 444s etc. It isn't just a case of a chap with a few tools screwing a table onto an existing seat back.

Where has it ever been stated that 700s are getting tables - officially?

 

[AM9]

The seats with tables have a fundamentally different frame, AFAICS, the fixed parts of the hinge are factory welded to the tubing.

I believer the hinges are similarly integral with the seat frame on stock such as 450s, 444s etc. It isn't just a case of a chap with a few tools screwing a table onto an existing seat back.

Where has it ever been stated that 700s are getting tables - officially?

It hasn't and there's no likeihood of anybody doing that at least until the mid-life refit or maybe ever. What has been said is that it is being 'looked into', and some here have latched onto that as being confirmation of imminent fitment. That's just wishful thinking.
Another issue is that just because most well behaved passengers would only put a couple of Kg on the table, they would need to be proven to abuse that amounts to at least an order more than that, - maybe more. They can't use clip-on picnic tables like children have in cars.

 

[Class377/5]

This weekends workings folks...

Saturday 23rd

501
5Y05 05+10 Jowett Sidings to Bedford
1W05 05.40 Bedford to Brighton
1W16 08.35 Brighton to Bedford
2W33 11.24 Bedford to Three Bridges
2W42 13.59 Three Bridges to Bedford
1W49 16.40 Bedford to Brighton
1W60 19.33 Brighton to Bedford
5Y73 22+15 Bedford to Jowett

502
5W16 07+22 Three Bridges Depot to Gatwick Airport
2W16 07.38 Gatwick Airport to Bedford
1W23 10.10 Bedford to Brighton
1W34 13.05 Brighton to Bedford
2W51 15.54 Bedford to Three Bridges
2W60 18.29 Three Bridges to Bedford
1W67 21.10 Bedford to Brighton
2W82 00.10 Brighton to Luton

503
5Y09 06+14 Jowett Sidings to Bedford
1W09 06.40 Bedford to Brighton
1W20 09.35 Brighton to Bedford
2W37 12.24 Bedford to Three Bridges
2W46 14.59 Three Bridges to Brighton
1W53 17.40 Bedford to Brighton
1W64 20.33 Brighton to Bedford
2W83 23.40 Bedford to Three Bridges
5W83 02+14 Three Bridges to Three Bridges Depot

505
5Y91 02+14 Jowett Sidings to Bedford
2W91 02.40 Bedford to Three Bridges
1W98 05.20 Three bridges to Bedford
1W13 07.40 Bedford to Brighton
1W24 10.35 Brighton to Bedford
2W41 13.24 Bedford to Three Bridges
2W50 15.59 Three Bridges to Bedford
1W57 18.40 Bedford to Brighton
1W68 21.33 Brighton to Bedford
5Y68 00+20 Bedford to Jowett Sidings

506
5Y03 04+52 Jowett Sidings to Bedford
1W03 05.20 Bedford to Brighton
1W14 08.05 Brighton to Bedford
2W31 10.54 Bedford to Three Bridges
2W40 13.29 Three Bridges to Bedford
1W47 16.10 Bedford to Brighton
1W58 19.05 Brighton to Bedford
1W71 21.52 Bedford to Brighton
5W71 00+44 Brighton to Three Bridges Depot

507
5W08 06+10 Three Bridges Depot to Brighton
1W08 06.35 Brighton to Bedford
2W35 09.24 Bedford to Three Bridges
2W34 11.59 Three Bridges to Bedford
1W41 14.40 Bedford to Brighton
1W52 17.35 Brighton to Bedford
5Y52 20+15 Bedford to Jowett Sidings

Sunday 24th

502
2W13 06.22 Luton to Brighton
1W10 09.14 Brighton to Bedford
1W13 12.06 Bedford to Brighton
1W34 15.14 Brighton to Bedford
1W55 18.06 Bedford to Brighton
5W55 20+58 Brighton to Three Bridges Depot

503
5W22 08+47 Three Bridges Depot to Gatwick Airport
2W22 08.59 Gatwick Airport to Bedford
2W37 11.50 Bedford to Three Bridges
2W44 14.24 Three Bridges to Bedford
2W57 16.50 Bedford to Three Bridges
2W64 19.24 Three Bridges to Bedford
5Y64 21+48 Bedford to Jowett Sidings

 

[spark001uk]

This weekends workings folks...

Cheers. Are next week's workings still the same do you know?

 

[Class377/5]

Cheers. Are next week's workings still the same do you know?

Yes. Beyond next weekend maybe not.

 

[JaJaWa]

It hasn't and there's no likeihood of anybody doing that at least until the mid-life refit or maybe ever. What has been said is that it is being 'looked into', and some here have latched onto that as being confirmation of imminent fitment. That's just wishful thinking.

Their social media teams state every day that tables will be fitted.

 

[Firestarter]

The service has worked very well through the same tunnels since 1983 with only a driver on board. And, frankly, one extra pair of hands doesn't make much difference when there's 1500 people on the train.

It will to the driver he can leave the abuse to the guard

 

[Bishopstone]

Their social media teams state every day that tables will be fitted.

Yes. For example:

23.09.16 15.12 ‘Tables will be retro-fitted’

23.09.16 08.29 ‘Tables will be retro-fitted to the trains already built’

22.09.16 07.36 ‘Tables will be retro-fitted to the units already build’ (sic)

20.09.16 07.32 ‘…we are in the process of arranging seat back tables to be fitted….’ (follow-up) ‘This is something we have had a lot of negative feedback about so will be looking to rectify this ASAP.’

19.09.16 12.05 ‘Well these fold down tables are going to be retro-fitted on these trains….’

16.09.16 07.53 ‘Yes tables are being retrofitted onto the 700s’

15.09.16 08.40 ‘’Tables are being retrofitted onto the new stock’

14.09.16 18.57 ‘Tables will be fitted into the trains’

10.09.16 10.11 ‘…tables are going to be retrofitted onto the new trains’

30.08.16 16.13 ‘Tables will be retro-fitted into the trains’

26.08.16 19.38 ‘The new trains will be retrofitted with tables’


These responses were from various employees, so it's not a case of one individual having misunderstood and parroted a false line repeatedly.

'Will be' sounds pretty definitive, to me.

Though I should also say that one individual in their social media team is rather more circumspect in his responses on this matter, using the 'looking at it' line, which is public sector/large corporate speak for 'it's been binned, now go away.'

 

[Hadders]

Another issue is that just because most well behaved passengers would only put a couple of Kg on the table, they would need to be proven to abuse that amounts to at least an order more than that, - maybe more. They can't use clip-on picnic tables like children have in cars.

The seat back tables on the 365s look very flimsy but I can't ever recall seeing a broken one in 20 years of travelling on these trains. Fitting the same type of tables to the 700s would be fine.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The seat back tables on the 365s look very flimsy but I can't ever recall seeing a broken one in 20 years of travelling on these trains. Fitting the same type of tables to the 700s would be fine.

And it would make quite a difference to the "normal" commuter / leisure traveller.

To think years ago , I used to mull over BR teams at Derby specifying say class 317 or 150 interiors (where their knowledge of a London / Cardiff peak was nil) , now of course it is a contractual and commercial negoitation with the likes of city banks who fund them , as opposed to patched with leather check jackets and kipper tie wearing folk from the RTC Derby.

On refelection , Derby was a better lot to negotiate with ....once they got the message...

 

[Islineclear3_1]

This weekends workings folks...

Saturday 23rd

501
5Y05 05+10 Jowett Sidings to Bedford
1W05 05.40 Bedford to Brighton
1W16 08.35 Brighton to Bedford
2W33 11.24 Bedford to Three Bridges
2W42 13.59 Three Bridges to Bedford
1W49 16.40 Bedford to Brighton
1W60 19.33 Brighton to Bedford
5Y73 22+15 Bedford to Jowett

502
5W16 07+22 Three Bridges Depot to Gatwick Airport
2W16 07.38 Gatwick Airport to Bedford
1W23 10.10 Bedford to Brighton
1W34 13.05 Brighton to Bedford
2W51 15.54 Bedford to Three Bridges
2W60 18.29 Three Bridges to Bedford
1W67 21.10 Bedford to Brighton
2W82 00.10 Brighton to Luton

503
5Y09 06+14 Jowett Sidings to Bedford
1W09 06.40 Bedford to Brighton
1W20 09.35 Brighton to Bedford
2W37 12.24 Bedford to Three Bridges
2W46 14.59 Three Bridges to Brighton
1W53 17.40 Bedford to Brighton
1W64 20.33 Brighton to Bedford
2W83 23.40 Bedford to Three Bridges
5W83 02+14 Three Bridges to Three Bridges Depot

505
5Y91 02+14 Jowett Sidings to Bedford
2W91 02.40 Bedford to Three Bridges
1W98 05.20 Three bridges to Bedford
1W13 07.40 Bedford to Brighton
1W24 10.35 Brighton to Bedford
2W41 13.24 Bedford to Three Bridges
2W50 15.59 Three Bridges to Bedford
1W57 18.40 Bedford to Brighton
1W68 21.33 Brighton to Bedford
5Y68 00+20 Bedford to Jowett Sidings

506
5Y03 04+52 Jowett Sidings to Bedford
1W03 05.20 Bedford to Brighton
1W14 08.05 Brighton to Bedford
2W31 10.54 Bedford to Three Bridges
2W40 13.29 Three Bridges to Bedford
1W47 16.10 Bedford to Brighton
1W58 19.05 Brighton to Bedford
1W71 21.52 Bedford to Brighton
5W71 00+44 Brighton to Three Bridges Depot

507
5W08 06+10 Three Bridges Depot to Brighton
1W08 06.35 Brighton to Bedford
2W35 09.24 Bedford to Three Bridges
2W34 11.59 Three Bridges to Bedford
1W41 14.40 Bedford to Brighton
1W52 17.35 Brighton to Bedford
5Y52 20+15 Bedford to Jowett Sidings

Thank you, but what happened to Diag. 504....?

 

[jon0844]

The seat back tables on the 365s look very flimsy but I can't ever recall seeing a broken one in 20 years of travelling on these trains. Fitting the same type of tables to the 700s would be fine.

I have. A few actually. Given enough pressure, it seems they'll snap and the table then hangs down.

I assume they get fixed quickly though (must be a simple repair/fix).

Personally, I'd settle for a smaller pull down cup holder, or something big enough for a cup or maybe a phone. I can use a laptop on my lap.

On refelection , Derby was a better lot to negotiate with ....once they got the message...

Was this before a time where you say what you want, and then get told what you're going to get - which is a rehash of something already being made?

 

[AM9]

Yes. For example:

23.09.16 15.12 ‘Tables will be retro-fitted’

23.09.16 08.29 ‘Tables will be retro-fitted to the trains already built’

22.09.16 07.36 ‘Tables will be retro-fitted to the units already build’ (sic)

20.09.16 07.32 ‘…we are in the process of arranging seat back tables to be fitted….’ (follow-up) ‘This is something we have had a lot of negative feedback about so will be looking to rectify this ASAP.’

19.09.16 12.05 ‘Well these fold down tables are going to be retro-fitted on these trains….’

16.09.16 07.53 ‘Yes tables are being retrofitted onto the 700s’

15.09.16 08.40 ‘’Tables are being retrofitted onto the new stock’

14.09.16 18.57 ‘Tables will be fitted into the trains’

10.09.16 10.11 ‘…tables are going to be retrofitted onto the new trains’

30.08.16 16.13 ‘Tables will be retro-fitted into the trains’

26.08.16 19.38 ‘The new trains will be retrofitted with tables’


These responses were from various employees, so it's not a case of one individual having misunderstood and parroted a false line repeatedly.

'Will be' sounds pretty definitive, to me.

Though I should also say that one individual in their social media team is rather more circumspect in his responses on this matter, using the 'looking at it' line, which is public sector/large corporate speak for 'it's been binned, now go away.'

Whatever the comments say, not one of them gives any indication of when "ASAP" is, - not a year or even a decade! That's the real indicator of no intent. The mid-life update could start 2030-2035, so if the flows aren't so high that the additional potential dwell increases would constrain even higher throughputs, they might squeeze some modification to seating into the refit. The fact that the various staff are all 'parroting' the same line could be because that's the answer they have been told to give, (suitably personalised of course). They can spin that one until the end of the current management contract. The one person who was more honest by saying that it was being looked at will probably slip into the majority line after a while.
... then they start all over again. Meantime, it becomes obvious that nothing will happen and all the complaining passengers will move on in their lives.

 

[Bishopstone]

Whatever the comments say, not one of them gives any indication of when "ASAP" is, - not a year or even a decade! That's the real indicator of no intent.

I have no idea whether, or when, tables will be fitted. I was merely rebutting the contention that GTR had not announced the fitting of tables. Because - as demonstrated - they have in fact announced this repeatedly.

However, I enjoyed the explanation of how a company official stating 'we will fit tables' should be interpreted as 'we won't fit tables'.

 

[Class377/5]

Thank you, but what happened to Diag. 504....?

It's not being used but the other diagrams are so they've kept thier numbers rather than changes things. Makes it simpler.