Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[Bald Rick]

I now have Tweet confirming the rear first class is always declassified and revenue staff all know. Good news, and now I hope they actually stop telling anyone else!!

On 1W93 this morning, the front first class was declassified.

 

[The Box Photter]

On 1W93 this morning, the front first class was declassified.

Well I was sitting in the rear 1st class on that train this morning and had my standard season ticket checked by the RPI who didn't bat an eyelid.

Given the techno-wizardry of the trains, I don't see why the PIS on them is so flaky. I don't need to be told that for my security, I'm being monitored by CCTV, or be reminded not to leave my luggage unattended (as the PIS on 700104 was showing all the way from Blackfriars to Bedford this evening on 1W96). Nor do I really need to know that the toilet at the front of the train is occupied - It is however, reasurring to passengers who arent as brazen as me to be told that they can sit down in the 1st class section with a standard class ticket. Perhaps the driver might make an announcement (but not until after Flitwick please).

Regular passengers are now realizing that its the rear 1st class section in the direction of travel that's declassified. It has been confirmed to me by GTR via their Twitter feed that the REAR section is ALWAYS declassified.

On the platform indicator at Flitwick this morning it said that 1st class was at the FRONT of the train.

 

[JaJaWa]

One benefit of the declassification being widely known is that people might actually use the full length of the platform! I've been on 700s with the front 8 coaches crush loaded and the rear 2 coaches are almost completely empty.

 

[Class377/5]

The 29th 700, 700020 (14th 8 car) has arrived at Three Bridges Depot on 6X66 02+20 Dollands Moor to Three Bridges Depot via Tonbridge, Catford and Brixton.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

The 29th 700, 700020 (14th 8 car) has arrived at Three Bridges Depot on 6X66 02+20 Dollands Moor to Three Bridges Depot via Tonbridge, Catford and Brixton.

I can't remember what was said if later this month, or next month but is there an expected start date for 700/0 to enter revenue earning service?

 

[Class377/5]

I can't remember what was said if later this month, or next month but is there an expected start date for 700/0 to enter revenue earning service?

Won't be this month. Next month maybe.

 

[W230]

Drove my first morning peak service today (done plenty at the other end of the day) and was genuinely impressed while viewing the monitors of how quickly the platform is emptied of awaiting punters by these 700s. So much quicker than 319s/377s.

Blink and you can miss hundreds of well drilled commuters disappearing inside! I now genuinely believe the projected dwell times can be met. I was sat at St Pancras twiddling my thumbs with all pax on/off and a minute to spare on my diagram.

 

[Bald Rick]

Drove my first morning peak service today (done plenty at the other end of the day) and was genuinely impressed while viewing the monitors of how quickly the platform is emptied of awaiting punters by these 700s. So much quicker than 319s/377s.

Blink and you can miss hundreds of well drilled commuters disappearing inside! I now genuinely believe the projected dwell times can be met. I was sat at St Pancras twiddling my thumbs with all pax on/off and a minute to spare on my diagram.

It's amazing. I've been timing it at City TL, and barring the odd slouch who has forgotten their bag, everyone is off within 20 seconds.

 

[387star]

having lino on the floors must be better for cleaners I was thinking today- lots of coffee spillages

 

[GodAtum]

I might try and get the 1W82 07.22 Brighton to Bedford from east Croydon to St Pancras International on friday. Am I likely to get a seat in 1st?

 

[AlexNL]

having lino on the floors must be better for cleaners I was thinking today- lots of coffee spillages

That's what you expect when passengers have no place where they can place their still half filled cup of coffee. :roll:

 

[Class455]

I saw 700106 on Tuesday at Clapham Junction! Why was it there of all places?! Do the 700's do WCML testing?

 

[Domh245]

Probably on a transfer to Hornsey via the West London Line

 

[spark001uk]

I saw 700106 on Tuesday at Clapham Junction! Why was it there of all places?! Do the 700's do WCML testing?

Could've been this working?
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K97557/2016/09/20/advanced

It says class 313 but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. Doubt a 313 would be going to thameslink depot anyway!
According to that working, it was over the far side at platform 17 at Clapham at 14:23, and stayed for almost 15 minutes. Is that about the time you saw it?

 

[Class377/5]

I saw 700106 on Tuesday at Clapham Junction! Why was it there of all places?! Do the 700's do WCML testing?

Returning from Hornsey Depot.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Could a senior member of this forum please confirm (or deny...) if 11th September was the first diagrammed passenger working of a 700 on a Sunday please

 

[Class377/5]

Could a senior member of this forum please confirm (or deny...) if 11th September was the first diagrammed passenger working of a 700 on a Sunday please

I'm not senior but yes it was.

 

[AM9]

Could a senior member of this forum please confirm (or deny...) if 11th September was the first diagrammed passenger working of a 700 on a Sunday please

Why would a 'senior member of this forum' have a specific ability to confirm a TOC's historic diagramming of a new train class?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I'm not senior but yes it was.

Thanks
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why would a 'senior member of this forum' have a specific ability to confirm a TOC's historic diagramming of a new train class?

I meant "senior" to mean a specific member on this forum who regularly posts and provides very useful information who has the knowledge in train planning without having to mention names - or anyone in the know who wanted to reply to my question

 

[Peter Sarf]

I had my first look inside a 700 last Thursday 15/09. I waited at Gatwick until 15:10 and travelled back to East Croydon on/in 700113.

I expected to see the wide inter coach gangways but I noticed that, although wide, most are made narrower by toilets of various sizes !. Not really a problem. I think that only two were completely un-obscured (iirc between coaches 4 and 5 from each end). Interestingly two had what looks like a sliding shutter/door between the coaches (between coaches 2 and 3 from each end iirc EDIT coaches 3-4 ?). The shutter was open but overlapped the gangway connection by about 20 Cm on one side. So it looks like when closed the end two coaches can be blocked off - intriguing. Or have I missed this mentioned before ?.

I know the legroom problem has been mentioned in this thread before so I was not going to touch on it.
*BUT*
Oh dear I really did notice the legroom issue in the window seats. I estimate about 40% of the floor width in front/below the seat is occupied by ducting/frame. This is quite a lot and I found myself sitting with my legs angled towards the space that would be occupied by a non-window seat passenger. The obstruction does not really have a flat enough top for me to rest my foot on. I also realised I consequently had one side of my back resting against the side of the coach to avoid twisting my back. This will very likely screw my back up within 20 minutes !. I decided to walk the length of the train instead and explore. I think the situation is made worse by the lack of an arm rest by the coach body side as that would move the seat away from the obstruction. I think that is achieved in first class.

I noticed a fire extinguisher under a seat with the frame/catch opened. As someone else mentioned it is in the right place to get pushed/kicked by seated passengers' feet.

The train is OK but spartan. Clearly these units are designed to get passengers on and off quickly and it shows - but it is a necessary feature. However the legroom problem in window seats is remarkably bad. That is, in my opinion, unacceptable as it affects 50% of the seats.

 

[Class377/5]

There's a divider so the rear or front three can be locked off it a defect requires it keeping the train in service temporary. These doors are connected to the SDO system so the closed section doors will not open.

 

[physics34]

I had my first look inside a 700 last Thursday 15/09. I waited at Gatwick until 15:10 and travelled back to East Croydon on/in 700113.

I expected to see the wide inter coach gangways but I noticed that, although wide, most are made narrower by toilets of various sizes !. Not really a problem. I think that only two were completely un-obscured (iirc between coaches 4 and 5 from each end). Interestingly two had what looks like a sliding shutter/door between the coaches (between coaches 2 and 3 from each end iirc). The shutter was open but overlapped the gangway connection by about 20 Cm on one side. So it looks like when closed the end two coaches can be blocked off - intriguing. Or have I missed this mentioned before ?.

I know the legroom problem has been mentioned in this thread before so I was not going to touch on it.
*BUT*
Oh dear I really did notice the legroom issue in the window seats. I estimate about 40% of the floor width in front/below the seat is occupied by ducting/frame. This is quite a lot and I found myself sitting with my legs angled towards the space that would be occupied by a non-window seat passenger. The obstruction does not really have a flat enough top for me to rest my foot on. I also realised I consequently had one side of my back resting against the side of the coach to avoid twisting my back. This will very likely screw my back up within 20 minutes !. I decided to walk the length of the train instead and explore. I think the situation is made worse by the lack of an arm rest by the coach body side as that would move the seat away from the obstruction. I think that is achieved in first class.

I noticed a fire extinguisher under a seat with the frame/catch opened. As someone else mentioned it is in the right place to get pushed/kicked by seated passengers' feet.

The train is OK but spartan. Clearly these units are designed to get passengers on and off quickly and it shows - but it is a necessary feature. However the legroom problem in window seats is remarkably bad. That is, in my opinion, unacceptable as it affects 50% of the seats.

its clear that the units are great for suburban work but not so for longer distance.

Its clear that the armrests of two inches or so would solve a number of issues leaving a two inch gap between the train side and the seat...and two inches more legroom away from the ducting. The DfT though wanted the aisles as wide as possible.

These issues were known when the mock up was on display (i didnt see the mock up in person, but you could tell just from the photos!), its just a shame that a batch of units for the longer distance services were not/will not be made. Its still not too late but of course will not happen.

 

[Class377/5]

its clear that the units are great for suburban work but not so for longer distance.

Its clear that the armrests of two inches or so would solve a number of issues leaving a two inch gap between the train side and the seat...and two inches more legroom away from the ducting. The DfT though wanted the aisles as wide as possible.

These issues were known when the mock up was on display (i didnt see the mock up in person, but you could tell just from the photos!), its just a shame that a batch of units for the longer distance services were not/will not be made. Its still not too late but of course will not happen.

It's far to late now. The fleet is already ¦earering the 60% complete figure with a third of the fleet in the UK. Any alterations requires all 20 odd banks, DfT, GTR, XLT and Siemens to agree. Add in the modern world of lawyers and you'll see why it's a none starter. It

It seems this point is needed to be made again. The more sub classes you have the less flexible the fleet and a 3rd version will cost hundreds of millions more (new train cost at roughly £1.5m a carriage plus 40 year maintenance contract) means it isn't going to happen. Tables are an easier thing to fit especially as there is spare capacity to do it, same with WiFi.

 

[physics34]

It's far to late now. The fleet is already ¦earering the 60% complete figure with a third of the fleet in the UK. Any alterations requires all 20 odd banks, DfT, GTR, XLT and Siemens to agree. Add in the modern world of lawyers and you'll see why it's a none starter. It

It seems this point is needed to be made again. The more sub classes you have the less flexible the fleet and a 3rd version will cost hundreds of millions more (new train cost at roughly £1.5m a carriage plus 40 year maintenance contract) means it isn't going to happen. Tables are an easier thing to fit especially as there is spare capacity to do it, same with WiFi.

A different style of seat would not cost £1.5m per carriage, but i take your point of flexibility of the fleet (and having to agree extra costs with the investors for any mods).....although some intelligent diagramming could overcome this.... if the individual routes themselves were self contained.

A mod to move the seats a couple of inches away from the train side could also be a retro thing.

 

[Class377/5]

A different style of seat would not cost £1.5m per carriage, but i take your point of flexibility of the fleet (and having to agree extra costs with the investors for any mods).....although some intelligent diagramming could overcome this.... if the individual routes themselves were self contained.

A mod to move the seats a couple of inches away from the train side could also be a retro thing.

You have misunderstood my point. By making a new batch of units you need more units to fill the same amount of diagrams which is where the extra cost comes in.

You cannot 'intelligently' diagram as you suggest. Say you have 30 diagrams that you plan on 10% spares so you need 33 units. Not your suggestion is make a new batch that would require 14 units on long distance, 16 on more shorter distance. You still need 10% spares to ensure you make the cut so you news 16 units for long distance and 18 for shorter giving you a total of 34 units for 30 diagrams.

Unless you accept that some time units with inter mix (and lose the whole justification for separate fleets in the first place) it's an excerise in increase costs. This is why the original idea of 3 types of 700s was dropped so it meant better usage of units reducing costs over the 4 years of the pay back period.

 

[spark001uk]

I went up town again on Wednesday last week, for a second go on these units, and let's say either it was a coincidence there were issues with them on both days, or they're having issues much more often than the two random days I went up!
First I got up was 700114 on 1W37 (ran 6 late).
Then 700113 on 1W40 (10 late).
Then discovered 2W39 that I wanted was cancelled, later found out 700104 sat down at Harlington, brakes wouldn't release. After 50 mins they finally got it moving, but by then everyone had been turfed off and it ran 5W39 to Three Bridges.

Both 113 and 114 had a blank PIS when I was on them.
I see what you guys mean about the airline seats, I sat by window and someone sat next to me and I couldn't help but encroach on their space, and my knees were touching the seat in front - and I'm only 5'8".! However they do serve their short dwell time purpose very well, even heavy flow was dealt with in well under 30sec.
I would say a small retro fit table wouldn't go amiss yes, maybe even a small tray in the bay seating under the window. It's not the end of the world if they don't do it tho.

 

[physics34]

You have misunderstood my point. By making a new batch of units you need more units to fill the same amount of diagrams which is where the extra cost comes in.

You cannot 'intelligently' diagram as you suggest. Say you have 30 diagrams that you plan on 10% spares so you need 33 units. Not your suggestion is make a new batch that would require 14 units on long distance, 16 on more shorter distance. You still need 10% spares to ensure you make the cut so you news 16 units for long distance and 18 for shorter giving you a total of 34 units for 30 diagrams.

Unless you accept that some time units with inter mix (and lose the whole justification for separate fleets in the first place) it's an excerise in increase costs. This is why the original idea of 3 types of 700s was dropped so it meant better usage of units reducing costs over the 4 years of the pay back period.

ah ok... once again though its a shame that "reducing costs" comes at a price which means lower comfort but that isnt surprising in the modern world.

I wouldnt expect a new batch to be built especially. I mean the last few of the current build being made a sub class for longer distance services. The seats have probably all been paid for,made and supplied, so its too late in that respect.....unless something was done involving a swap around with the class 717s.... (class 700 seats to be moved unto the 717s, and seats with armrests then being supplied for the last few 700s)... its all pie in the sky though and of course will never happen..... the only additional cost will be labour to move them about and the difference in the cost of seats with armrests, minus the cost of seats without.

Intelligent diagramming was in the main possible when you had the "metro" 319/3s and the "cityflyer" 319/4s...with the occasional discrepancy.. also with the CIGs and VEPs in the past.

 

[AM9]

ah ok... once again though its a shame that "reducing costs" comes at a price which means lower comfort but that isnt surprising in the modern world.

I wouldnt expect a new batch to be built especially. I mean the last few of the current build being made a sub class for longer distance services. The seats have probably all been paid for,made and supplied, so its too late in that respect.....unless something was done involving a swap around with the class 717s.... (class 700 seats to be moved unto the 717s, and seats with armrests then being supplied for the last few 700s)... its all pie in the sky though and of course will never happen..... the only additional cost will be labour to move them about and the difference in the cost of seats with armrests, minus the cost of seats without.

Intelligent diagramming was in the main possible when you had the "metro" 319/3s and the "cityflyer" 319/4s...with the occasional discrepancy.. also with the CIGs and VEPs in the past.

Be careful what you wish for. Having a (slightly) 'enhanced' fit of trains on certain services will mean that some experienced travellers will head for those resulting in them being more crowded, which means longer dwells etc..

 

[talldave]

At last I got my first 700 ride yesterday. I was standing so can't comment on the seats but the train feels spacious and a welcome change from clapped out 319s.

But, on arrival at St Pancras the doors wouldn't open for a couple of minutes. I know the driver's probably going spare trying to rectify the problem but an announcement after 30s would reduce the tension.

It's also unacceptable - if this couldn't be sorted in the first week of service they should have been pulled until it could be fixed. Weeks on, it's still not fixed and trains with fantastic wide doors that should allow short dwell times are holding everyone up.

 

[AM9]

At last I got my first 700 ride yesterday. I was standing so can't comment on the seats but the train feels spacious and a welcome change from clapped out 319s.

But, on arrival at St Pancras the doors wouldn't open for a couple of minutes. I know the driver's probably going spare trying to rectify the problem but an announcement after 30s would reduce the tension.

It's also unacceptable - if this couldn't be sorted in the first week of service they should have been pulled until it could be fixed. Weeks on, it's still not fixed and trains with fantastic wide doors that should allow short dwell times are holding everyone up.

'Unacceptable' is just a subjective statement unless it ithe actual frequency of occurence is stated, i.e. not just an assumption based on random postings of anecdotes here.