Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[Dent]

Have you ever been on a train?

I have been on many, not that that has any relevance to this discussion or the points I raised.

 

[class387]

They will both be non-stop Stevenage to Finsbury Park, the half hourly service at Knebworth & Welwyn North and fast services from Welwyn, Hatfield & Potters Bar to Central London will be provided by a half hourly Cambridge service, all stops from Welwyn Garden City and starting from Maidstone East IIRC.

Ok. I hope the connection to Peterborough from the omittted stations is easy at Stevenage/Hitchin though, just so that we don't actually end up losing a service from Thameslink

 

[J-2739]

If the answer to both these questions is "no" then how does the lack of tables make any difference at all to boarding times?

People are generally more carful to get out of a chair with a table, than a chair without a table, so that adds to the dwell time. That's even ignoring the fact that people have to take their things off a table to leave, and some are more quicker than others...

 

[transmanche]

I have been on many, not that that has any relevance to this discussion or the points I raised.

If you'd observed people alighting from a busy train then you'd know that your comments were pretty daft:

Are passengers required to remain seated until the train has stopped in the station?

Does the train wait until all passengers are seated before moving off?

I'll reverse it to make it easier for you. Do all passengers gather their belongings, leave their seats and line up neatly by the doors before the train comes to a stand?

 

[Dent]

People are generally more carful to get out of a chair with a table, than a chair without a table, so that adds to the dwell time. That's even ignoring the fact that people have to take their things off a table to leave, and some are more quicker than others...

The time taken to get out of the seat does not add to dwell times since it happens on approach to the station, not while the train is waiting.

 

[sarahj]

The time taken to get out of the seat does not add to dwell times since it happens on approach to the station, not while the train is waiting.

It's amazing how many folks I watch who wait until the train is at a stand before making a move.

Perhaps too many Tv shows where dispatch always seems to leisurely, or films. I rage at a scene in Dirty Rotten Scoundrels set in the South of France where the train sits a station for the story arc.. Perhaps they are waiting for a Railway child to wave their petticoat. I wished I knew, but it happens every day.

 

[J-2739]

The time taken to get out of the seat does not add to dwell times since it happens on approach to the station, not while the train is waiting.

Not all the time, especially on a busy train. And I was talking about the differences of getting off a train with a table vs without.

 

[asylumxl]

It's amazing how many folks I watch who wait until the train is at a stand before making a move.

Perhaps too many Tv shows where dispatch always seems to leisurely, or films. I rage at a scene in Dirty Rotten Scoundrels set in the South of France where the train sits a station for the story arc.. Perhaps they are waiting for a Railway child to wave their petticoat. I wished I knew, but it happens every day.

Perhaps we could do a remake with cancelled GoVia trains?

 

[bengley]

It's 13 minutes non-stop on a fast train doing 90mph from London Bridge to East Croydon and 20 minutes non-stop from St Pancras to St Albans - how many tubes do that?

The Core is not going to be a full tube like operation, it will be mostly passengers from outside London arriving at their destination and new passengers for outside London catching their train.

We don't do 90 from London Bridge to East Croydon

 

[AM9]

It's 13 minutes non-stop on a fast train doing 90mph from London Bridge to East Croydon and 20 minutes non-stop from St Pancras to St Albans - how many tubes do that?

Plenty of tubes travel more than 30 minutes out from central London. Piccadilly and Metropolitan trains travel non-stop over part of their routes. What has the speed of trains got to do with it?

 

[asylumxl]

Plenty of tubes travel more than 30 minutes out from central London. Piccadilly and Metropolitan trains travel non-stop over part of their routes. What has the speed of trains got to do with it?

They also stop at every station and the average distance for each is probably far less.

 

[jon0844]

A fair few people do shortcut the circle line by using Thameslink. Perhaps many people don't know to do it, but you'll often find people boarding at St Pancras to alight at Blackfriars and vice versa. Plus those just hopping from St Pancras to Farringdon.

 

[Goldfish62]

A fair few people do shortcut the circle line by using Thameslink. Perhaps many people don't know to do it, but you'll often find people boarding at St Pancras to alight at Blackfriars and vice versa. Plus those just hopping from St Pancras to Farringdon.

I certainly do.

 

[samuelmorris]

Likewise and the extra space in the 700s suits me fine knowing I'm not 'intruding' on a crowded surface like it feels on an 8-car 319 at present. I do agree that the trains being designed for users like me is wrong but I think some points on either side are valid. For what they're trying to do with the Thameslink programme the specification is fine - it's just a bit questionable with the longer distance routes. I personally don't find the units that uncomfortable, Farringdon to East Croydon the 'slow way' was fine for me, but I can understand the criticisms. The project is sufficiently ambitious that it is bound to outrage a substantial number of people.

 

[tsr]

They also stop at every station and the average distance for each is probably far less.

They don't stop everywhere - and, in the case of the Met, especially in peak hours where they carry the most people.

Distances between stops may be less in central London, but on a Met fast service the overall journey feels no slower than a Thameslink stopper in the overall Greater London area.

In some ways, if I end up heading into London on a stopping service, the Thameslink Brighton-Bedford route feels to me like two Metropolitan Line routes stuck back-to-back. The only issue is that, despite their technical teething problems, I actually find the Met to run better and the stock more comfortable (except perhaps the lack of toilets onboard, which I wouldn't expect on an Underground route anyway).

 

[Minstral25]

Plenty of tubes travel more than 30 minutes out from central London. Piccadilly and Metropolitan trains travel non-stop over part of their routes. What has the speed of trains got to do with it?

Tubes are mostly stopping services. The longest gap between stations I am aware of are Metropolitan services from Finchley Road to Wembley Park taking 11 minutes.

However, the point I am making is that the nature of routes Thameslink Trains are utilised are not tube like at all. They are proper outer suburban services picking up the majority of passengers in central London to take to the suburbs and beyond, mostly at high speed. Even the shortest distance from London Bridge to East Croydon is 13 minutes travel time and more than half the passengers will travel further.

The point about speed is that it is harder to keep your balance at 80/90/100 mph than at 50mph that I believe tubes max out at on very limited journeys.

 

[samuelmorris]

Point of comparison - 700112 this morning wth PIS isolated. I also decided to try one of the infamous window airline seats, I can see what people mean about the lack of legroom, it's not quite as bad as a 3-abreast northern 150 as I did actually fit in the seat but every bump along the way caused me knee to strike the seat in front which was rather unpleasant. I'm not short but I'm far from abnormal height so that being an issue for me must also affect countless others. Battles me really, why aren't the seats just maybe an inch further apart? That would probably do.

 

[jon0844]

Point of comparison - 700112 this morning wth PIS isolated. I also decided to try one of the infamous window airline seats, I can see what people mean about the lack of legroom, it's not quite as bad as a 3-abreast northern 150 as I did actually fit in the seat but every bump along the way caused me knee to strike the seat in front which was rather unpleasant. I'm not short but I'm far from abnormal height so that being an issue for me must also affect countless others. Battles me really, why aren't the seats just maybe an inch further apart? That would probably do.

It is to have the maximum possible aisle space, given how narrow our trains are in comparison to other countries.

Who knows, in years to come if populations continue to skyrocket we may need 2+1 seating to enable more standing/walking room. I'd hope by then we'd be building more lines, but it's probably fair to say we'd need to squeeze in a bit more capacity still before that happened.

 

[Mordac]

It is to have the maximum possible aisle space, given how narrow our trains are in comparison to other countries.

Who knows, in years to come if populations continue to skyrocket we may need 2+1 seating to enable more standing/walking room. I'd hope by then we'd be building more lines, but it's probably fair to say we'd need to squeeze in a bit more capacity still before that happened.

Already like that in parts of the SWT 707s.

 

[jon0844]

Already like that in parts of the SWT 707s.

That's the accessible area isn't it? I think it's vital that new trains have areas that are multi-purpose. Obviously for wheelchairs first and foremost but also for other things, from buggies to an excessive number of cases (even bikes).

At least with a nice open space, you have options. Yes, you get less seats but it's better that you have room to move people and their things, even with a little less comfort, during disruption or unexpectedly large passenger flows.

 

[AM9]

The point about speed is that it is harder to keep your balance at 80/90/100 mph than at 50mph that I believe tubes max out at on very limited journeys.

Apart from the JLE, most of the track that tubes run on will goive a far more lively ride at 40mph than a 700 gives at 100mph on the MML. Speed is an issue of how long the journey takes and the train itself's performance at its designed speed. It has nothing to do with the interior provided the train is running on lines for which it was designed. I would put a 700 at 100mph up against an LU 'S' stock at 50-60 any time for passenger comfort/safety, and they both have similar open spaces within.

 

[The Box Photter]

Today's class 700 performance. Simultaneous failures of one southbound at CTK and one northbound at Blackfriars. Rush hour chaos in both directions.

Dear Siemens, you can stick your Desiro City right where the sun don't shine.

 

[Harbornite]

T
Dear Siemens, you can stick your Desiro City right where the sun don't shine.

What do you expect? Teething issues are nothing new, this is a new design for the UK network so you'll have to give them a break.

Look at the 380s, they were unreliable when delivered but have since settled down, as have the Junipers.

 

[bramling]

What do you expect? Teething issues are nothing new, this is a new design for the UK network so you'll have to give them a break.

Look at the 380s, they were unreliable when delivered but have since settled down, as have the Junipers.

It's not acceptable for these trains to be causing such disruption in the peaks.

Today's Thameslink performance is pretty abysmal - some reassurance for those of us who currently are not part of this unreliable operation.

Just feels like the people involved in this Programme don't know what they're doing.

 

[J-2739]

It's not acceptable for these trains to be causing such disruption in the peaks.

Today's Thameslink performance is pretty abysmal - some reassurance for those of us who currently are not part of this unreliable operation.

Just feels like the people involved in this Programme don't know what they're doing.

The they ought to have put them on off-peak services first, so a failure causes less disruption. Bit too late for that though.

 

[neilm]

What do you expect? Teething issues are nothing new, this is a new design for the UK network so you'll have to give them a break.

Look at the 380s, they were unreliable when delivered but have since settled down, as have the Junipers.

It's becoming more than teething issues now, 2 700s breaking down in the core in either direction is not acceptable in the peak.

 

[bramling]

It's becoming more than teething issues now, 2 700s breaking down in the core in either direction is not acceptable in the peak.

Yes quite so. Some people on here seem to think that any level of failure is acceptable if it's remotely associated with the Thameslink Programme.

Of course, today would have been yet another day when the GN side would have been disrupted if linked to Thameslink. Thankfully for its thousands of users, it isn't yet.

One "reassurance" given on here was how resilient the core is, for example having bi-directional signalling. Wonder what proportion of the timetable would be practically able to run using the bi-di if one line is blocked?

 

[Sparks807Evo]

Today's class 700 performance. Simultaneous failures of one southbound at CTK and one northbound at Blackfriars. Rush hour chaos in both directions.

Dear Siemens, you can stick your Desiro City right where the sun don't shine.

Ouch - not good. Happened a few weeks ago when I was having to commute along the Thameslink line where I noticed a couple of 700 scheduled diagrams being cancelled or delayed. Actually, the whole Bedford-Brighton service was a mess most of the week so glad not to have to use it. I do fear the Cambridge/KX services when put through the core are going to be messed up as it doesn't take much to wreck the service in the core if something goes wrong...

Meanwhile the Luton/Orpington/Sutton loop services were very good - had to commute to and from Cricklewood a few weeks ago for a few days. All on-time bar one and no problems. The 319s may be a bit older now, but reliable.

However I suppose it's to be expected that the 700s will have issues - Bombardier had issues with the 172s at the very start (378s were ok though) and Siemens of course with the 380s. The 319s of course were a handful as well at the start. The only thing is though that the 700s have been in testing so long that it is frustrating that there are clearly still major issues ongoing, leading to a collapse in the service.

Sure once the 700s bed down they'll be similar to the 319s, but considering only running them in the off-peaks is not feasible, it will be case of grin and bear it whilst they settle down....

 

[D365]

Sure once the 700s bed down they'll be similar, but considering only running them in the off-peaks is not feasible, it will be case of grin and bear it whilst they settle down....

Yep, even if they weren't in use at peak times now they would have to be eventually. These kinds of technical issues are usually ones that wouldn't crop up in other situations.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Can many of the technical issues also be partially put down to staff in-experience with Desiros?