Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[LNW-GW Joint]

One thing that did erk me though was not the train but the passengers. Despite there being three luggage racks and overhead racks in my immediate proximity, some idiotic passengers still insisted on putting their luggage on seats or in the isle. The mind boggles.

On the Northern 319s the PIS keeps telling you to "keep your luggage with you or in sight at all times".
Which is an instruction not to use the storage facilities, really.
They then follow that with a message that unattended luggage might be destroyed...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Both will be redundant within 10 years as battery technology improves and 4G/5G get cheaper.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[jon0844]

When we get blanket 4G coverage, Wi-Fi may be useful on trains with solar reflecting glass, and where we have better external antennas. But there will need to be multiple connections to have any chance of matching individual connections on multiple networks.

So I don't think it will ever be obsolete. Indeed Voice over Wi-Fi is quite important to phone operators to relieve pressure on mobile networks. Obviously on a train it still ends up over 4G, but my point is Wi-Fi in some form won't disappear.

 

[Nic Robinson]

there's not that many phones / tablets that can't last a full day and most laptops will do 4-6 hours. Is it really that difficult to charge your phone / tablet / laptop / hair straighteners before you start your journey? Particularly if it is a journey of less than 2 hours?

I use a 6+ and macbook pro so, no, I don't need to plug in. But when I travel, I see many people do. Certainly my kids use it all the time.

As for wifi, well between Burgess Hill and London there are many flat spots: most of the section from Haywards Heath to Three bridges and around Horley to around Purley give me problems. Again, I don't need it always but when I do, I do.

These points are really about what professionals travelling to/from work should expect in this day and age for their several thousand pound outlay. They are the cash cow the TOCs milk and deserve better.

They also deserve better than the hard, narrow seats with no legroom and absence of tables.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Wi-Fi on trains where fitted isn't always practical, tried the Wi-Fi once on a 444 heading London bound and it was so slow it was just killing the battery of my Kindle. In a train for most Internet your probably better off using your 4G.

How wide a variation is there with platform heights between Electrostars, 700s and 319s?

 

[Class377/5]

It'll be a sad day when the 365s move on from GN.

Don't be fooled by the 12-car all day service on GN. Some of them will be but consider:

1. The majority of 700s are 8 car not 12
2. Many GN platforms cannot take 12 car trains - I wager a bet that Thameslink will see most of the 12 car leaving GN mostly with the 8 car sets.

Get used to standing...

Sorry but your post is full or lies or errors. Seems your talking from opinions not any actual correct facts.

The 700s are also most spilt at 55x 12 cars and 60x 8 cars so majority is untrue really. Especially when you don't account for the maintenance plus spares.

The GN will get the following under current plans

12 car Peterborough and Cambridge North
8 car Cambridge stopper and peak 8 car Welwyn GC service

Note the only difference on previously announced service pattern is the Welwyn service is Letchworth IIRC.

So getting used to standing comment missing the point that all services outside peak that Thameslink takes over from GN will see train lengthening. Peak wise of course you get 12 car 700s replacing 12 car 365 but you still get more seats by the fact there are longer services on everything.

I'd say that wi-fi is a reasonable addition to the 700s as it doesn't weigh much, the trains are (apparently) already wired with that in mind, and will provide some connectivity that can't reliably be provided in the core by 3G or 4G. I'm afraid that those who walk along only looking at a portable screen rather than where they are going are already clogging up ingress and egress on core trains so wi-fi won't help or hinder that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Phone users can make their own arrangements but think of those poor hard pressed commuters who can't possibly manage because rechargeable hair straighteners might be too heavy for them or create an unsightly bulge in their handbags/pockets.

People forgot onboard WiFi is currently run off 3G.

Until NR built it's data network along the tracks, this will continue to be the case. Remember you can't plug your train into a data connection like you can with your home devices.

When the core area is operated by class 700 stock only the platform faces at the 4 central London stations will be modified including a raised area opposite the wheelchair space to allow boarding without the use of portable ramps, not possible to do this currently with different floor height stock (319/electrostar) at one stage 'gap fillers' were mooted. The all important platform 'dwell time' for 24 tph doesn't allow time for portable ramps so the platform being flush with floor height essential with careful gauging to still allow testing and infrastructure monitoring trains through.

The ramps will be for the middle two doorways just like the Tube do.

When we get blanket 4G coverage, Wi-Fi may be useful on trains with solar reflecting glass, and where we have better external antennas. But there will need to be multiple connections to have any chance of matching individual connections on multiple networks.

So I don't think it will ever be obsolete. Indeed Voice over Wi-Fi is quite important to phone operators to relieve pressure on mobile networks. Obviously on a train it still ends up over 4G, but my point is Wi-Fi in some form won't disappear.

Seeing as there is no blanket 2G tech, yet along 3 or 4G! Don't forget there never been a plan to cover the country 100% in a data type and nor there be, even in places like Sussex or Wessex. The railway solution is different strategy to the mobile as NR is proposing a data network along the tracks.

 

[Nic Robinson]

The railway solution is different strategy to the mobile as NR is proposing a data network along the tracks.

How would this work? Sounds interesting.

 

[Class377/5]

How would this work? Sounds interesting.

Same way the mobile network work.

 

[jon0844]

800MHz 4G will have extremely good reach, and works significantly better than 3G. EE will have 95% geographic coverage. 3G was a pretty crap technology and 4G (then 5G) will get us close to near constant connectivity wherever we are. With local sites, Wi-Fi calling and possible even lower frequencies to come (450MHz?) you will even be covered on the middle of a building or basement.

 

[Nic Robinson]

How would this work? Sounds interesting.

Same way the mobile network work.

So when you say a data network along the tracks you mean a network of 4G (or similar) masts adjacent to the track?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

What generation of technology does GSM-R use? Could the proposed data network superceed GSM-R?

 

[Hadders]

Sorry but your post is full or lies or errors. Seems your talking from opinions not any actual correct facts.

The 700s are also most spilt at 55x 12 cars and 60x 8 cars so majority is untrue really. Especially when you don't account for the maintenance plus spares.

The GN will get the following under current plans

12 car Peterborough and Cambridge North
8 car Cambridge stopper and peak 8 car Welwyn GC service

Note the only difference on previously announced service pattern is the Welwyn service is Letchworth IIRC.

So getting used to standing comment missing the point that all services outside peak that Thameslink takes over from GN will see train lengthening. Peak wise of course you get 12 car 700s replacing 12 car 365 but you still get more seats by the fact there are longer services on everything

There are 115 Class 700s being built. 60 of them are 8-car - that's the majority of them! Granted many of them will be 12-car but certainly not the majority of them.

As far as I am aware the following stations cannot handle 12-car trains: Knebworth, Welwyn North, Welwyn Garden City, Hatfield, Potters Bar. There's also the 'village' stations on the Cambridge branch that can't handle 12-cars. Are there any plans to lengthen platforms at these stations to 12-car?

So if the train goes direct from Stevenage to Finsbury Park then it can be a 12-car. If it calls anywhere en-route then I believe it can only be an 8-car.

Granted the 4-car off peak trains will be 8-car. That's a significant improvement.

But in the peaks I fear we could actually end up with fewer seats because an 8 car 700 has fewer seats than an 8 car 365, 317, 321. And a 12-car 700 has fewer seats than a 12 car 365, 317, 321.

The questions that need answering are:
- how many 8-car services in the peak will become 12-cars?
- how many additional services will run in the peaks?

 

[physics34]

When the core area is operated by class 700 stock only the platform faces at the 4 central London stations will be modified including a raised area opposite the wheelchair space to allow boarding without the use of portable ramps, not possible to do this currently with different floor height stock (319/electrostar) at one stage 'gap fillers' were mooted. The all important platform 'dwell time' for 24 tph doesn't allow time for portable ramps so the platform being flush with floor height essential with careful gauging to still allow testing and infrastructure monitoring trains through.

There is gonna have to be decent discipline and knowledge by station staff on route then to make sure they put wheelchair passengers in the right part.

 

[W230]

What's the purpose of that quarter-circle piece of plastic right above the DOO camera?

When they were testing the units there was a problem with the DOO camera image being washed out by the BIL lights at night (they're very very bright!) and basically you couldn't see to dispatch the train. I understand these were an after market add on so that now you can.

They also deserve better than the hard, narrow seats with no legroom and absence of tables.

Comical.

It's already been explained so many times why these units are designed in this way. They're not for long distance travel. If you can't go more than half an hour without charging your phone etc etc then get a portable charger. While i'm not saying it doesn't happen, I have never seen anyone doing any work on a Thameslink train. Watching tablets, reading papers, doing Sudoku, yes. But not work.

 

[Nic Robinson]

Comical.

It's already been explained so many times why these units are designed in this way. They're not for long distance travel. If you can't go more than half an hour without charging your phone etc etc then get a portable charger. While i'm not saying it doesn't happen, I have never seen anyone doing any work on a Thameslink train. Watching tablets, reading papers, doing Sudoku, yes. But not work.

Utterly bizarre. I think you must occupy a parallel universe to mine. :roll:

 

[Domh245]

There is gonna have to be decent discipline and knowledge by station staff on route then to make sure they put wheelchair passengers in the right part.

The centre of the platform for all trains? Shouldn't be that difficult...

 

[Bald Rick]

I work on the train every single day. But I never need to recharge my phone / tablet / laptop, that's what my chargers at home and work are for.

 

[Supercoss]

Listening to all the feedback since the first public runs it has been decided to test Wi-Fi by using a fleet of specially converted Auxiliary Wi-Fi Connectivity Tenders.
Testing has already commenced using an 8 car Electrostar set, the Tender is required to convey the 654 USB cables and associated equipment required to provide a FLU class 700 with the necessary connectivity.
Readers will note that since the pilot loco at Brighton has been sold into preservation these Tender wagons will be attached and detached by specially converted Dellner EMU stock with 'wasp painted ends' at both Bedford & Brighton.
Exclusive first pictures from July 1st overnight testing

-
A company spokesperson said, " Don't believe all you read - do you know how much extra weight retrofitting Wi-Fi will add to each unit & how much dwell time will increase if customers have to stow seat back tables..."
The spokesperson added " These Tender wagons will also be used to convey cycles from Brighton to the Capital following the annual London to Brighton cycle ride, again demonstrating we are listening to our leisure customers in addition to our free newspaper, Gold Card carrying commuters"
No One at DaFT was available for immediate comment.

 

[physics34]

The centre of the platform for all trains? Shouldn't be that difficult...

Say a wheelchair passengers is way up the far end at East croydon or something. The platform staff are gonna have to get their heads together to put that passenger in the right bit. (And delay the train).

 

[AM9]

Say a wheelchair passengers is way up the far end at East croydon or something. The platform staff are gonna have to get their heads together to put that passenger in the right bit. (And delay the train).

Don't wheelchair passengers program extra time in their itineraries, either through experience and common sense, or if it is their first time, using the option on journey planners? The idea of a raised platform edge by the centre of the train is to give most wheelchair users a degree of independence if they want it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Listening to all the feedback since the first public runs it has been decided to test Wi-Fi by using a fleet of specially converted Auxiliary Wi-Fi Connectivity Tenders.
Testing has already commenced using an 8 car Electrostar set, the Tender is required to convey the 654 USB cables and associated equipment required to provide a FLU class 700 with the necessary connectivity.
Readers will note that since the pilot loco at Brighton has been sold into preservation these Tender wagons will be attached and detached by specially converted Dellner EMU stock with 'wasp painted ends' at both Bedford & Brighton.
Exclusive first pictures from July 1st overnight testing

-
A company spokesperson said, " Don't believe all you read - do you know how much extra weight retrofitting Wi-Fi will add to each unit & how much dwell time will increase if customers have to stow seat back tables..."
The spokesperson added " These Tender wagons will also be used to convey cycles from Brighton to the Capital following the annual London to Brighton cycle ride, again demonstrating we are listening to our leisure customers in addition to our free newspaper, Gold Card carrying commuters"
No One at DaFT was available for immediate comment.

Just a daft poster.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There are 115 Class 700s being built. 60 of them are 8-car - that's the majority of them! Granted many of them will be 12-car but certainly not the majority of them.

As far as I am aware the following stations cannot handle 12-car trains: Knebworth, Welwyn North, Welwyn Garden City, Hatfield, Potters Bar. There's also the 'village' stations on the Cambridge branch that can't handle 12-cars. Are there any plans to lengthen platforms at these stations to 12-car?

So if the train goes direct from Stevenage to Finsbury Park then it can be a 12-car. If it calls anywhere en-route then I believe it can only be an 8-car ...

All of the 700s I believe have full functioning SDO so 12-car trains can provide services to any station. It will of course require passengers to read the notices regarding which coaches' doors will open. Seems to work in many other areas of the UK though.

 

[petersi]

12 car trains are unlikely to be time tabled on north bound services for Welwyn garden city and potters bar as they would block the points south of the station.

Would not want trains stopped in the station blocking both fast and slow lines .

 

[Nic Robinson]

Listening to all the feedback since the first public runs it has been decided to test Wi-Fi by using a fleet of specially converted Auxiliary Wi-Fi Connectivity Tenders.
Testing has already commenced using an 8 car Electrostar set, the Tender is required to convey the 654 USB cables and associated equipment required to provide a FLU class 700 with the necessary connectivity.
Readers will note that since the pilot loco at Brighton has been sold into preservation these Tender wagons will be attached and detached by specially converted Dellner EMU stock with 'wasp painted ends' at both Bedford & Brighton.
Exclusive first pictures from July 1st overnight testing

-
A company spokesperson said, " Don't believe all you read - do you know how much extra weight retrofitting Wi-Fi will add to each unit & how much dwell time will increase if customers have to stow seat back tables..."
The spokesperson added " These Tender wagons will also be used to convey cycles from Brighton to the Capital following the annual London to Brighton cycle ride, again demonstrating we are listening to our leisure customers in addition to our free newspaper, Gold Card carrying commuters"
No One at DaFT was available for immediate comment.

Excellent!

Joking aside, I'm sure it's true that these things (wifi and tables) would be a nuisance to retrofit. I'm just staggered they're not there already!

 

[Class377/5]

There are 115 Class 700s being built. 60 of them are 8-car - that's the majority of them! Granted many of them will be 12-car but certainly not the majority of them.

Your trying to twist facts to suit your agenda. And you have an agenda.

As far as I am aware the following stations cannot handle 12-car trains: Knebworth, Welwyn North, Welwyn Garden City, Hatfield, Potters Bar. There's also the 'village' stations on the Cambridge branch that can't handle 12-cars. Are there any plans to lengthen platforms at these stations to 12-car?

You don't need a 12 car platform to call a 12 car train. This happens dilh at services in Sussex. The argument passengers on the GN cannot cope with this stupid.

So if the train goes direct from Stevenage to Finsbury Park then it can be a 12-car. If it calls anywhere en-route then I believe it can only be an 8-car.

No it doesn't. Your making assumptions then trying state them as fact.

Granted the 4-car off peak trains will be 8-car. That's a significant improvement.

Indeed. There won't be anything less than a 8 car on the general services. Only 4 cars will be Cambridge to Kings Lynn.

But in the peaks I fear we could actually end up with fewer seats because an 8 car 700 has fewer seats than an 8 car 365, 317, 321. And a 12-car 700 has fewer seats than a 12 car 365, 317, 321.

The 8 car 700s replace 4 car services with 12 cars replacing everything else. Don't forget the villages are going to have 8 car platforms.

Stop comparing one train in isolation when your failing to see the bigger picture. In peak with the expection of the Cambridge Stopper, every thing from Cambridge and Peterborough under GTR will be 12 cars. Compare that today and it's a big increase in coaches and seats.

The questions that need answering are:
- how many 8-car services in the peak will become 12-cars?
- how many additional services will run in the peaks?

All Thameslink services will run the same length in peak as off peak. Kings Lynn to Cambridge will be 4 cars off peak, some 8 as in peak with 8 cars south of Cambridge off peak and 12 in peak. All pal extras from Kings Cross to Peterborough will be 12 cars.

However your concerns have been addressed before in threads about the service pattern multiple times rather than in the thread about the trains themselves (sigificant difference there).

 

[jon0844]

A bigger problem affecting seats will be the ongoing shortage of drivers issue!

I was home late again this evening due to a cancelled train (which RTT once again showed as running).

Sent from my KIW-L21 using Tapatalk

 

[Hadders]

You don't need a 12 car platform to call a 12 car train. This happens dilh at services in Sussex. The argument passengers on the GN cannot cope with this stupid.

A 12-car train calling at a platform with just enough space for 8-cars? I know SDO operates successfully in many places but is it used at any stations where a third of the doors cannot be used?

I believe some 8-car services in the morning peak call at some of the village stations with 4-cars locked out of use (I think the locked out unit becomes available after Royston) but this is different to SDO operation.

Stop comparing one train in isolation when your failing to see the bigger picture. In peak with the expection of the Cambridge Stopper, every thing from Cambridge and Peterborough under GTR will be 12 cars. Compare that today and it's a big increase in coaches and seats.

Some of the 8-car services might be able to be lengthened to 12-car and that's welcome but I can't see how all of them can be because of the platform length issue mentioned above.

There's plenty of talk about Off Peak capacity increases, I don't recall anything about the peaks.

 

[AM9]

A 12-car train calling at a platform with just enough space for 8-cars? I know SDO operates successfully in many places but is it used at any stations where a third of the doors cannot be used?

At Shawford (Hants.) just one door out of anything up to 20 doors is opened.

 

[Abpj17]

Echoing the parallel universe - I see passengers working every week day on Thameslink trains.

My laptop doesn't balance on my lap - the only time I can practically work (typing) is if there is a table. Preferably a proper one not a seat back one. My laptop holds a decent charge so that never needs to be plugged in. I charge my phone regularly on the trains if I've managed to grab a rare seat with a plug. For 'online' working, I'll connect via my phone's wifi - which drains the battery relatively quickly.

If it's a day of back to back meetings at different sites, then I probably didn't get a chance to charge my phone and have already used up my portable charger too (with no opportunity to recharge it). If it's the morning, there is a reasonable chance the kids drained the battery watching youtube on my phone before school without me noticing (4 kids).

I need my phone charged at both ends - particularly with Ramadan at the moment - to book uber to avoid the 30 min wait for a taxi from the company at the station. And to check bus arrival times in London.

On 12 car trains on 8 car platforms. This happens at Leagrave with some of the late night trains that stop on the fast rather than slow platforms. Last four carriages don't open - invariably there is no driver announcement and a group of confused passengers. Once you've been caught out once, you know to avoid those carriages. At least it is on trains where you can walk through though. I believe extending the platforms isn't an likely option due to the road bridge next to the station.

 

[Class377/5]

A 12-car train calling at a platform with just enough space for 8-cars? I know SDO operates successfully in many places but is it used at any stations where a third of the doors cannot be used?

There a few. Balcombe would be the first, 12 cars in Up direction, 8 in the Down. Some stations between Three Bridges and Horsham require SDO on 12 cars, Caterham line has five car length platforms for 8 car trains (with level crossing issues like the Villages).

I believe some 8-car services in the morning peak call at some of the village stations with 4-cars locked out of use (I think the locked out unit becomes available after Royston) but this is different to SDO operation.

True but extending platforms means this will no longer happen so there another capacity increase.

Some of the 8-car services might be able to be lengthened to 12-car and that's welcome but I can't see how all of them can be because of the platform length issue mentioned above.

Platform length issue is only an issue on here. Was introduced on MML in 2011 when first 12 cars started up with some services in disruption having to call at station with 8 car platforms without issue. Southern/Southeastern routes have been doing it for years with the latter wanting 377s for SDO usage on the Maidstone East line to get around platform lengthening being unaffordable.

The truth is the public deals with SDO on the network at various places where there isn't the money or passenger levels to extend so SDO is used to allow greater capacity on routes without issue daily. The idea passengers on the GN are so special they cannot cope with this so you can't do SDO is laughable if it weren't such an insult those passengers.

There's plenty of talk about Off Peak capacity increases, I don't recall anything about the peaks.

There has been talk about the peaks multiple times before now. Will refer back to at least one poster on here whose a GN commuter who been stating you don't need any train lengthening on the GN as it only needs 8 cars in peak (seriously) and the debates had with him (as he was unable to grasp a single concept that the TLP isn't about the 2015 peaks but 2025 and 2035 peaks).

Of course you may be a new member but there's been talk of it. As for of offically there are figures but they've been tinkering with timetables to produce a better increase for where it's most required. But figure of doubling capacity from Cambridge has been used. Places like St Albans will see 60% with only an extra 1tph due to train lengthening. IIRC Bedford with 1tph extra sees 40% by just getting extra carriages.

Without knowing where your talking about its hard to I've any details but this has been covered to death on here time and time again with the same result. Those who are worried about capacity normally do so without all the facts hence the worry.

 

[jon0844]

As long as those big colourful screens don't begin to fail, it can't be hard to warn people that they're in a carriage where the doors won't open at a particular station.

One thing I've realised is that with the screens showing how busy each coach is, and even the toilet status, is that as you walk through you have no way of knowing what coach you're in once you've walked through a few. It's very easy to lose count (the accessible toilet being a guide that you're half way) so if there are to be warnings that four carriages (potentially one day) won't open, you'll need to make it very clear.

I assume the PIS is set up to do all that.

And another question; if and when the remaining 8 car only platforms are extended in 5 or 10 years, are there options to add more carriages to the 8 car services to make them 12?

 

[Class377/5]

As long as those big colourful screens don't begin to fail, it can't be hard to warn people that they're in a carriage where the doors won't open at a particular station.

One thing I've realised is that with the screens showing how busy each coach is, and even the toilet status, is that as you walk through you have no way of knowing what coach you're in once you've walked through a few. It's very easy to lose count (the accessible toilet being a guide that you're half way) so if there are to be warnings that four carriages (potentially one day) won't open, you'll need to make it very clear.

I assume the PIS is set up to do all that.

And another question; if and when the remaining 8 car only platforms are extended in 5 or 10 years, are there options to add more carriages to the 8 car services to make them 12?

The 700s have been designed to make them different lengths. For example all cabs on the 700s are either 401xxx or 412xxx, ie coaches 1 or 12. That is the same for an 8 car as the number sequence is designed to allow train lengthening or de-lengthening as future requirements as per the contract the DfT wanted.

As for SDO, there are graphics to show you next station has short platforms and move down. The idea is to only tell people to move down in carriages affected. There is an issue with open gangways meaning your traditional coach x of x doesn't rely wok as the sound carries onto the next coach. Also people (general passengers) regularly get confused at if they are in the right coach so the basic move forward (or backwards) from this coach is design to be a simp,e message for people.

For the carriage numbers, it's very easy to lose track of what coach your in. At least th number sequence on a 700 is simple (barring the 'missing' coaches in an 8 car). Is always number 4, coach number then unit number. Again this echoes back to my statement over simple move message on the PIS, simpler the message the less confusion.