Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[jon0844]

When the trains empty out at St Pancras, it shouldn't be too easy to move to one of the seats with more leg room.

And from the TOCs point of view, it might just encourage a few people to upgrade to first class.

 

[AM9]

The trains should be made to be comfortable for THE LONGEST possible journey on them.

Not at the expense of providing the necessary level of service in the most critical part of the network.

 

[Class377/5]

Is dropping and raising the shoes unique to the Electrostars? It's interesting to watch them being lowered at Farringdon, but I can't recall seeing this on a 319 (doesn't mean it doesn't happen, of course).

Yes it is unique to the 377s on Thameslink.

Planning to try and hop on the service from Bedford (2W43). Can anyone confirm that the 700 is out today?

Should be.

Like many have said, there won't be many people doing this long a journey on them
..but there will be a few.

The trains should be made to be comfortable for THE LONGEST possible journey on them.

I.know someone who is gonna travel from Cambridge to East Croydon on them.

Not at the expense of providing the necessary level of service in the most critical part of the network.

Whatever trains Thameslink got would have been the same. It's trying to deal with two types of passengers currently so needs to address that. This is especially important with the recent 40% rise in passengers in the last decade.

As for comment of making them suitable for the longest possible trip, Cambridge to Croydon isn't that. In fact there's a better part of another hour on that service.

 

[physics34]

Not at the expense of providing the necessary level of service in the most critical part of the network.

But I think the need to make the units as they are to be like "sardine cans" in the future is a bit overstated.

Projecting future growth and assuming these trains will be in service for 30 years or so, I'm sure they could've altered them in the future to make them suitable to be sardine cans when the need arises as I assume they will need a mid life refurbishment anyway.

Shame they weren't built so that seats/tables could be rearranged easily...or if they have been then why have they been built with this high density from the start.

 

[jon0844]

They feel very open when not full, and when full the extra standing room will be highly valued.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

But I think the need to make the units as they are to be like "sardine cans" in the future is a bit overstated.

Projecting future growth and assuming these trains will be in service for 30 years or so, I'm sure they could've altered them in the future to make them suitable to be sardine cans when the need arises as I assume they will need a mid life refurbishment anyway.

Shame they weren't built so that seats/tables could be rearranged easily...or if they have been then why have they been built with this high density from the start.

There are existing services which are leaving passengers behind on platforms, so the Class 700 fleet are going to be extremely busy from the full service introduction, particularly when the entire Thameslink project is complete. It's not going to be 15 or 20 years before that capacity is needed, it'll be 15 or 20 months.

 

[Bald Rick]

Meanwhile, the Class 319s they were designed to replace have 3+2 seats, no armrests, no tables .... And not much standing space either.

 

[jon0844]

Wow - plenty of space between the train and platform at the southern end of platform B at St Pancras!

And somewhere between Elstree and Borehamwood and St Albans the PIS crashed and went blank, then went a bit odd rebooting causing the 'now approaching St Albans' message to glitch and distort!

I wonder if it was during a neutral section as the air conditioning changed sound at about the same time?

Back working now - after the driver did a manual announcement to say the next stop.

Very smooth at speed though!

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Edit h, it may have been turned off as it incorrectly announced next station as Luton Airport Parkway instead of Harpenden.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
At Leagrave it announced the rear doors wouldn't open, then we got on the platform and the warning went and it appears the doors worked (didn't actually try but the alarm went).

 

[GodAtum]

How comfortable are the seats for longer journeys?

 

[W230]

Perhaps a silly question, but why did the train start off so slowly from City Thameslink northbound?

The running rails are pretty slippy here. Full power on AC in an Electrostar causes wheelslip so in a 700 it would just be silly to open it up fully. Also if you open them up too quick they cut power to zero and you have to start again. No need to do it really. I'll be taking them very easy until i'm used to driving them!

I agree with other posters though - the AC acceleration is ridiculous.

 

[jon0844]

How comfortable are the seats for longer journeys?

I think they're fine. It's a bit snug in most standard seats, but they're supportive. And if the train isn't rammed and you take an aisle seat, it's easy to move around from time to time.

Edit: on the run back to Three Bridges and they noticed before it left the PIS inside shows Three Bridges but Brighton at the front?

Edit 2: Heard crew mention a VCB tripping on the way up to Bedford, at the point where the screens went off/corrupted.

 

[AM9]

Wow - plenty of space between the train and platform at the southern end of platform B at St Pancras!

That's geometry for you, can't have it both ways, (at least not without extending footboards).

And somewhere between Elstree and Borehamwood and St Albans the PIS crashed and went blank, then went a bit odd rebooting causing the 'now approaching St Albans' message to glitch and distort!

I wonder if it was during a neutral section as the air conditioning changed sound at about the same time?

Back working now - after the driver did a manual announcement to say the next stop.

Very smooth at speed though!


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Edit h, it may have been turned off as it incorrectly announced next station as Luton Airport Parkway instead of Harpenden.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The guy I spoke to said that there were issues with the PIS that were being resolved.

 

[jon0844]

You may not have seen my edit above. Seems something tripped on the way up to Bedford and they've logged it.

 

[asylumxl]

I took a ride on the Bedford to Three Bridges services. Hoped to experience this rapid acceleration, but unfortunately it seems the driver babied it completely.

As for the train itself, it seems good to me. The noise is about the same as an Electrostar, though maybe slightly louder. The airline seats do have slightly cramped leg room, but as someone over 6ft I found it comparable to many other trains. Ride seemed to have a bit more sway at low speeds.

One thing that did erk me though was not the train but the passengers. Despite there being three luggage racks and overhead racks in my immediate proximity, some idiotic passengers still insisted on putting their luggage on seats or in the isle. The mind boggles.

 

[Deepgreen]

Wow - plenty of space between the train and platform at the southern end of platform B at St Pancras!

And somewhere between Elstree and Borehamwood and St Albans the PIS crashed and went blank, then went a bit odd rebooting causing the 'now approaching St Albans' message to glitch and distort!

I wonder if it was during a neutral section as the air conditioning changed sound at about the same time?

Back working now - after the driver did a manual announcement to say the next stop.

Very smooth at speed though!

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Edit h, it may have been turned off as it incorrectly announced next station as Luton Airport Parkway instead of Harpenden.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
At Leagrave it announced the rear doors wouldn't open, then we got on the platform and the warning went and it appears the doors worked (didn't actually try but the alarm went).

Good grief - that first class section looks stark and uninviting! They've managed to out-do the Southern efforts!

 

[stut]

Meanwhile, the Class 319s they were designed to replace have 3+2 seats, no armrests, no tables .... And not much standing space either.

Ditto the 317s and 321s on the GN side.

The 365s, however...

 

[Deepgreen]

The running rails are pretty slippy here. Full power on AC in an Electrostar causes wheelslip so in a 700 it would just be silly to open it up fully. Also if you open them up too quick they cut power to zero and you have to start again. No need to do it really. I'll be taking them very easy until i'm used to driving them!

I agree with other posters though - the AC acceleration is ridiculous.

It's 1 in 29 up from the platform - pretty much the steepest main line in the UK, and from a standing start. Tricky in anything other than very good conditions.

 

[AM9]

The running rails are pretty slippy here. Full power on AC in an Electrostar causes wheelslip so in a 700 it would just be silly to open it up fully. Also if you open them up too quick they cut power to zero and you have to start again. No need to do it really. I'll be taking them very easy until i'm used to driving them!

I agree with other posters though - the AC acceleration is ridiculous.

When I walked from the rear to the front at Bedford, I looked at the data panels on the outside of some of the coaches. It seems that the pure trailer cars were about 27-28 tonnes tare and the motored/pantograph cars were between 34 &37 tons despite having full a/c and all modern safety systems. They weigh less than the 319s that have about 40% less power. That power is spread over half of the axles so it can be put down earlier.
Compare those weights with the equivalent Electrostar or Desiro (350/450) and note that the 700s have 5MW of traction, then it isn't so surprising. The approximate power to weight ratios of some relevant stock are as follows:

class............KW/tonne
319............9.5
350............11.5
377............9.3
387............12.9
700............17.7
​

These are very well powered units to enable them to nip in between tight MML pathing.

 

[jon0844]

Good grief - that first class section looks stark and uninviting! They've managed to out-do the Southern efforts!

It does the job though. Bet they'll soon be packed out with people upgrading themselves.

One end is still declassified at the moment, but it doesn't matter given the trains are yet to operate at a time where they'll get even remotely busy. On my run to Bedford and back (from Blackfriars), only three coaches of the twelve ever went to dark green - and only between St Pancras and Luton, on and off.

Let these loose on the rush hour and let's see what people say then!

Now going back to WGC in first class on a 365. Much cosier, almost cramped though with the tight tables.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

That's geometry for you, can't have it both ways, (at least not without extending footboards).

The class 800s seem to be worse especially at curved platforms!

 

[physics34]

I think they're fine. It's a bit snug in most standard seats, but they're supportive. And if the train isn't rammed and you take an aisle seat, it's easy to move around from time to time.

i still think many on here have never been on a VEP, Phase 1 CIG or EPB

A thousand time more comfortable, and no loss of bloodflow to buttocks or legs!!!. Personal preference of course though.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Good grief - that first class section looks stark and uninviting! They've managed to out-do the Southern efforts!

very bland and basic and should probably be the standard class.

At least theyve got a table!!! tee hee

 

[Via Bank]

Took another short ride from St Pancras to Blackfriars today. I remain impressed with ride quality and overall ambiance, and didn't mind the seats (although I imagine people with longer legs than mine will have something to say about that.)

Acceleration seemed very slow on DC - I couldn't tell if this was the driver just not used to the unit, or being cautious, or an artifact of linespeed, power conditions, etc. Either way we seemed abnormally sluggish on leaving Farringdon and Blackfriars.

I noticed a few more quirks on the PIS. It seems a bit odd that, in the 'next station' routine, the bottom strip of the screen displays "We will shortly be arriving at Farringdon. Change here for…" Surely the first sentence could be omitted here, since it's being displayed directly below the words Next stop: Farringdon? Especially given that we were getting to the point where the announcement was only just finishing up as the doors were released - I can see them running into one another, East London line style.

The driver also seemed to have missed the stop point a little at Farringdon, it took the best part of thirty seconds for them to release the doors. The good news is they seem to have fixed the door behaviour: I held down the 'open' button and they opened immediately both on boarding and alighting, without having to wait for them to be released first.

 

[Nic Robinson]

Despite there being three luggage racks and overhead racks in my immediate proximity, some idiotic passengers still insisted on putting their luggage on seats or in the isle. The mind boggles.

Indeed. And the o/h racks are really spacious.

 

[physics34]

One thing that did erk me though was not the train but the passengers. Despite there being three luggage racks and overhead racks in my immediate proximity, some idiotic passengers still insisted on putting their luggage on seats or in the isle. The mind boggles.

human behaviour i guess.

SOmebody sees space around them and thinks they can leave their luggage there. laziness!

 

[AM9]

Acceleration seemed very slow on DC - I couldn't tell if this was the driver just not used to the unit, or being cautious, or an artifact of linespeed, power conditions, etc. Either way we seemed abnormally sluggish on leaving Farringdon and Blackfriars.

I don't understand why there are so many comments about their acceleration or speed in the core. I'm sure someone can confirm the actual speeds down there but I doubt that any of it apart from the sprint between St Pancras and Farringdon is more than 40mph.. The ramps up to Kentish Town, Blackfriars and Farrindon (west end) each have more than one section on them so speeds cannot be that fast anyway. It's not as if 319s or 377s have been thrashing through them over the last seven years anyway.
The drivers must still get used to the core station braking and exact stopping points in these new trains until full ATO is operational so why the rush? I can just imagine the complaints that would ensue if there were frequent waits for the doors to open. Just imagine all those impetuous commuters champing at the bit like they were when the 377s were having problems with their GPS/Beacon door control at St Pancras.
They (the drivers) certainly aren't holding back on the drag up to Elstree Tunnel (from either side) and the acceleration needed to slip in between the MML fasts will be used fully as soon as they are used on peak diagrams.

 

[swt_passenger]

When the trains empty out at St Pancras, it shouldn't be too easy to move to one of the seats with more leg room.

Did you actually mean "shouldn't be too difficult", or "should be easy"...

 

[asylumxl]

Did you actually mean "shouldn't be too difficult", or "should be easy"...

He quite obviously meant the mean of both phrases.

 

[Via Bank]

human behaviour i guess.

SOmebody sees space around them and thinks they can leave their luggage there. laziness!

Or, they don't see the luggage racks, or don't realise that they're there to be used for luggage.

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm sure someone can confirm the actual speeds down there but I doubt that any of it apart from the sprint between St Pancras and Farringdon is more than 40mph...

Looks as if none of it exceeds 30 mph, from Kentish Town P1/2 through to Blackfriars. That's from the current public versions of the two relevant sectional appendices.

 

[Kite159]

Wow - plenty of space between the train and platform at the southern end of platform B at St Pancras!

And somewhere between Elstree and Borehamwood and St Albans the PIS crashed and went blank, then went a bit odd rebooting causing the 'now approaching St Albans' message to glitch and distort!

I wonder if it was during a neutral section as the air conditioning changed sound at about the same time?

Back working now - after the driver did a manual announcement to say the next stop.

Very smooth at speed though!

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Edit h, it may have been turned off as it incorrectly announced next station as Luton Airport Parkway instead of Harpenden.
]

Case to install Baker Street style blue lights to highlight the gap?