Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[trainmania100]

May 2018

Waaaaat?
Two whole years ...? Blimey

 

[Hadders]

Lots of talk about 12 car 700s but remember most of them will be 8 car.

A 12 car 700 replacing an 8 car 319/377/365 etc will have more seats

but

An 8 car 700 replacing an 8 car 319/377/365 etc will have fewer seats
A 12 car 700 replacing a 12 car 377/387/365 etc will have fewer seats

I've not had the chance to sample a 700 myself yet but 2+2 is definitely better than 3+2. I get the need for larger standing areas around the doors but the seats do appear to be very close together and too tight to the side wall of the carriage. Remember these trains will operate long distance runs to Peterborough and Cambridge.

 

[ag51ruk]

Why not just press it when it's illuminated? I don't think this is the case on any unit. I will often press the button before the train has stopped out of habit (on all sorts of units) and not once have the doors opened straight away on release.

Many European trains (and Manchester Metrolink) allow you to push the door open button before the train has stopped - and not keep it pressed, it just flashes to register that it has been pressed. The door opens as soon as it is released by the driver, reducing dwell times.

 

[jon0844]

Lots of talk about 12 car 700s but remember most of them will be 8 car.

A 12 car 700 replacing an 8 car 319/377/365 etc will have more seats

but

An 8 car 700 replacing an 8 car 319/377/365 etc will have fewer seats
A 12 car 700 replacing a 12 car 377/387/365 etc will have fewer seats

I've not had the chance to sample a 700 myself yet but 2+2 is definitely better than 3+2. I get the need for larger standing areas around the doors but the seats do appear to be very close together and too tight to the side wall of the carriage. Remember these trains will operate long distance runs to Peterborough and Cambridge.

I didn't find my foot hitting the side wall though, and more than I do on 365s (only problem there is getting your foot/ankle slowly cooked).

I do recommend anyone with real concerns takes some time to go and check one out. Even if it means asking to be let on the platform at London Bridge (or Brighton) to get 5 or 10 minutes to look around it, so as not to actually travel and need a ticket.

 

[Bald Rick]

Lots of talk about 12 car 700s but remember most of them will be 8 car.

A 12 car 700 replacing an 8 car 319/377/365 etc will have more seats

but

An 8 car 700 replacing an 8 car 319/377/365 etc will have fewer seats
A 12 car 700 replacing a 12 car 377/387/365 etc will have fewer seats

But, an 8 or 12 car 700 forming a service that doesn't run at all will have many, many more seats! And there will be lots of those.

 

[AM9]

Lots of talk about 12 car 700s but remember most of them will be 8 car.

I'd say that 55 8-car vs 60 12-car is more 'slightly more 8-car than 12-car'

A 12 car 700 replacing an 8 car 319/377/365 etc will have more seats

but

An 8 car 700 replacing an 8 car 319/377/365 etc will have fewer seats
A 12 car 700 replacing a 12 car 377/387/365 etc will have fewer seats

An 8-car 700 has under 10 seats less than a 2x387 8-car train
A 12 car 700 has 12 seats less than a 3x387 12-car train
Forget 319s because they can't run in 12-car mode.
Many of the class700 8 & 12-car diagrams will replace 4/8-car runs of current trains, so the seat increase will be considerable.

I've not had the chance to sample a 700 myself yet but 2+2 is definitely better than 3+2. I get the need for larger standing areas around the doors but the seats do appear to be very close together and too tight to the side wall of the carriage. Remember these trains will operate long distance runs to Peterborough and Cambridge.

Cambridge and Peterborough services at 60-90 minutes are 'outer-suburban' in 21st century parlance.

 

[D365]

I'd say that 55 8-car vs 60 12-car is more 'slightly more 8-car than 12-car'

You've got that the wrong way round - it's 60 8-car (700/0) and 55 12-car (/1).

Cambridge and Peterborough services at 60-90 minutes are 'outer-suburban' in 21st century parlance.

I don't think either destination is much more than 60 minutes in travel time from Kings Cross - certainly not when they go non-stop after Stevenage.

 

[DerekC]

But, an 8 or 12 car 700 forming a service that doesn't run at all will have many, many more seats! And there will be lots of those.

This is a bit opaque - could you explain. I am not sure whether you mean that there will be more services, or that the Class 700s will be unreliable. (A theory advanced by some on this thread before, I think).

 

[Bald Rick]

This is a bit opaque - could you explain. I am not sure whether you mean that there will be more services, or that the Class 700s will be unreliable. (A theory advanced by some on this thread before, I think).

There will be more services.

For example, on the MML today (well not today, but on a normal day) in the morning peak (0700-1000 arrival at St Pancras Low Level) there are 36 services.

Post December 2018, GTR are contracted to provide 48. That's an extra 12 morning peak services on the MML.

It's the same in the evening peak, and extra 12 services departing STP LL for the MML.

If that's not extra seats, I don't know what is.

 

[47802]

I'd say that 55 8-car vs 60 12-car is more 'slightly more 8-car than 12-car'



An 8-car 700 has under 10 seats less than a 2x387 8-car train
A 12 car 700 has 12 seats less than a 3x387 12-car train
Forget 319s because they can't run in 12-car mode.
Many of the class700 8 & 12-car diagrams will replace 4/8-car runs of current trains, so the seat increase will be considerable.



Cambridge and Peterborough services at 60-90 minutes are 'outer-suburban' in 21st century parlance.

I'm not sure its even particularly relevant to compare them to 387's given the 387's were not particularly designed for the route and were only ever a temporary solution.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

With the units being in effect "2 trains in one", in 3rd rail mode if the traction system on one half fails will the power restriction in software get lifted or eased for the working half?

 

[Class377/5]

700109 will be out today folks.

On most rolling stock (all the ex-BR and until now Desiro family) if you hold in the 'Open' button before the doors are actually released (so for example as the train is rolling into the station) then when the doors are released the door will open. On others (predominantly Electrostars) if you hold the 'Open' button in then even when the doors are released they won't open and you'll have to release the button and press again.

I don't know what safety reasons they mean, but the issue is that if you press the button before it is ready, then it does not open - you have to press the button again.

Ah ok. Thanks. Don't really issue why it's a point of interest.

Based on my observations, people will fill up the coaches nearest the stairs/exits. This means that it might be impossible to move past the crowded coaches into the less crowded coaches.

There needs to be some type of display on the platform showing intending passengers where the less busy coaches are. Its too late once you've got into a packed coach to move anywhere.

My thoughts are that "regulars" will soon work out where to stand to have the best chance of getting a seat and avoiding the coach with the "mobility impaired" spaces. At the moment on the 387s its a case of Russian Roulette whether the door you've positioned yourself for has the dreaded maroon stripes, meaning you're getting on where there are no seats.

Waaaaat?
Two whole years ...? Blimey

Well there a lot to do before then. Still 113 to roll out in service and hundreds of drivers to train before that point. Remember May 2018 is 104 weeks away. Not that long!

There will be more services.

For example, on the MML today (well not today, but on a normal day) in the morning peak (0700-1000 arrival at St Pancras Low Level) there are 36 services.

Post December 2018, GTR are contracted to provide 48. That's an extra 12 morning peak services on the MML.

It's the same in the evening peak, and extra 12 services departing STP LL for the MML.

If that's not extra seats, I don't know what is.

40% more seats to Bedford wasn't it?

With the units being in effect "2 trains in one", in 3rd rail mode if the traction system on one half fails will the power restriction in software get lifted or eased for the working half?

Pretty much yes. Send it on the AC with 'half power'. Didn't affect it running at 100mph.

 

[AM9]

You've got that the wrong way round - it's 60 8-car (700/0) and 55 12-car (/1).

Oops sorry, my mistake. Either way, 60 vs. 55 is hardly 'mostly'.

 

[AM9]

I'm not sure its even particularly relevant to compare them to 387's given the 387's were not particularly designed for the route and were only ever a temporary solution.

Neither were the 377s designed for Thameslink, but if you insist, a 12-car 377 provides 63 more seats of which at least half of those are centre of three seats which according to many here are rarely used in preference to standing.
Even with all the extra Electrostars parachuted into Thamelink service, not all peak trains are 12-car. So for every single 8-car 377/2 or 377/5 train upgraded to a 12-car 700 there will be another 180 seats provided. That is before any additional trains are provided.
Sounds like a massive increase to me.

If you want to compare trains that were designed for the route then consider the last all-319 services where every working EMU meant that there were even a few 4-car trains run in the peak!

 

[ainsworth74]

Ah ok. Thanks. Don't really issue why it's a point of interest.

Neither do I! It's something I'm aware of and will do but its hardly a priority or something complain about!

 

[Class377/5]

Neither were the 377s designed for Thameslink, but if you insist, a 12-car 377 provides 63 more seats of which at least half of those are centre of three seats which according to many here are rarely used in preference to standing.
Even with all the extra Electrostars parachuted into Thamelink service, not all peak trains are 12-car. So for every single 8-car 377/2 or 377/5 train upgraded to a 12-car 700 there will be another 180 seats provided. That is before any additional trains are provided.
Sounds like a massive increase to me.

If you want to compare trains that were designed for the route then consider the last all-319 services where every working EMU meant that there were even a few 4-car trains run in the peak!

There are three soundbound and one northbound 12 car in AM peak with directions swapped in the PM peak. In 2018 it'll be 12x 12 cars an hour in peak. That's where the extra seats come from, the sheer increase of 12 cars. Bedford for example will go to 8x 12 cars an hour in peak from per peak period. That's a huge increase.

Neither do I! It's something I'm aware of and will do but its hardly a priority or something complain about!

Glad it's not just me

 

[absolutelymilk]

Glad it's not just me

I don't think anyone is saying that it is a priority, but it is mildly annoying, and would (as other people have posted) save say half a second on reaction times - which would add up over hundreds of stations. Is there a specific reason it was done like this or was that just the easiest thing to do?

 

[Deepgreen]

I look forward to the first visit of RPIs into first class, when a punter is gripped and says "but there are no seats in standard class".

RPI to slowly, and deliberately, turn head to on board display...

Even if the punter was right, that doesn't provide an excuse to sit in first class.

 

[Nic Robinson]

First run from Brighton was cancelled today. A 700 did pass Bug around 1010 on the down. Would that have formed the cancelled train I wonder?

 

[Class377/5]

I don't think anyone is saying that it is a priority, but it is mildly annoying, and would (as other people have posted) save say half a second on reaction times - which would add up over hundreds of stations. Is there a specific reason it was done like this or was that just the easiest thing to do?

I don't think it'll save any time as people just mash the buttons anyway. And those used to an Electrostars won'the notice any difference.

 

[southern442]

I don't think it'll save any time as people just mash the buttons anyway. And those used to an Electrostars won'the notice any difference.

Plus not many people know the holding-in-the-buttons trick with the older trains anyway, so far I'm the only person that I've seen do it.

 

[radamfi]

I don't think it'll save any time as people just mash the buttons anyway. And those used to an Electrostars won'the notice any difference.

Apart from 387s and 377/6s.

 

[Bald Rick]

I don't think it'll save any time as people just mash the buttons anyway. And those used to an Electrostars won'the notice any difference.

It certainly won't save any time in the core, as the doors will be auto-opened.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Even if the punter was right, that doesn't provide an excuse to sit in first class.

Oh I totally agree. But that is the excuse rolled out by about a third of chancers, and there is no way for an RPI to disprove it, which can lead to arguments (which the chancer invariably loses, but takes up time whilst chancers 2, 3 and 4 prepare their exit strategies).

Not now.

 

[tsr]

Plus not many people know the holding-in-the-buttons trick with the older trains anyway, so far I'm the only person that I've seen do it.

Yep, it's mainly those who have either worked with or commuted on the same stock for ages. As those people are often the most experienced / laid back about their travel, you often won't see them running up to the door and jabbing/holding the buttons anyway, if they're not in a hurry.

 

[Class377/5]

Plus not many people know the holding-in-the-buttons trick with the older trains anyway, so far I'm the only person that I've seen do it.

Apart from 387s and 377/6s.

Didn't work on the 387 I've just been on folks.

It certainly won't save any time in the core, as the doors will be auto-opened.

Indeed. Outside the Core it's less of an issue anyway with better dwell times vs numbers alighting/boarding.

 

[Dent]

As for the safety angle, consider a longish run between stations. Person A might inadvertently and unknowingly press a button and then move to somewhere else on the train. Person B then takes up a position by the door, with no intention of getting off at the next stop, and then gets caught out at that stop when the doors suddenly open. A small risk but it exists and is worth avoiding. The only proviso is that suitably rugged door control buttons are fitted.

I have never known doors opening on release if the button was pressed some time before they were released. What stock does this?

In any case, preventing this scenario you described of the doors "remembering" a past press of the button (even if it does actually occur) does not necessitate preventing the doors opening if the button is being pressed when they are released.

 

[Hadders]

I don't think either destination is much more than 60 minutes in travel time from Kings Cross - certainly not when they go non-stop after Stevenage.

Great Northern don't (and won't) run non-stop between Stevenage and Peterborough.

I'd be interested on how many more trains will run from Stevenage in the peaks. Currently between 0600 and 0930 there are 24 trains to Kings Cross of which just 4 are 4-car (the 0609, 0625, 0628, 0911), 5 are 12-car (0659, 0724, 0736, 0759, 0828), one 6-car with the remaining 14 being 8-car.

There are a further 7 trains to Moorgate which go via the Hertford Loop.

Is it/Will there be sufficient track capacity to run additional services in the peak?

Clearly the handful of 4-car services will become at least 8-car but not all of the 8-car services will be able to go to 12 due to short platforms at many of the stations. I acknowledge that Off Peak and at weekends more services can (and will run) but will this be the case in the peak and how any additional seats will be added.

 

[D365]

Great Northern don't (and won't) run non-stop between Stevenage and Peterborough.

What I meant was non-stop from Stevenage to Kings Cross (or Finsbury Park).

Is it/Will there be sufficient track capacity to run additional services in the peak?

As ever, I imagine Welwyn will be the constraint.

 

[Hadders]

What I meant was non-stop from Stevenage to Kings Cross (or Finsbury Park).

Ah! It's about 25 minutes on a fast Stevenage. I suspect that on many peak services from Stevenage to London there'll be fewer seats and I doubt this'll be balanced by additional services.

The trade off will be more room to stand.

As ever, I imagine Welwyn will be the constraint.

I keep reading on here that Welwyn isn't the largest problem.

 

[Class377/5]

Great Northern don't (and won't) run non-stop between Stevenage and Peterborough.

I'd be interested on how many more trains will run from Stevenage in the peaks. Currently between 0600 and 0930 there are 24 trains to Kings Cross of which just 4 are 4-car (the 0609, 0625, 0628, 0911), 5 are 12-car (0659, 0724, 0736, 0759, 0828), one 6-car with the remaining 14 being 8-car.

There are a further 7 trains to Moorgate which go via the Hertford Loop.

Is it/Will there be sufficient track capacity to run additional services in the peak?

Clearly the handful of 4-car services will become at least 8-car but not all of the 8-car services will be able to go to 12 due to short platforms at many of the stations. I acknowledge that Off Peak and at weekends more services can (and will run) but will this be the case in the peak and how any additional seats will be added.

Using newer stock the little reason not to have 12 cars on as many services as possible. Remember the extra 10x 387 will now allow more GN KX services to have DOO.