Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[radamfi]

How many seats are there in a 12 coach 700 compared to a 12 coach 319/377/387 (excluding middle seats in a 319/377)?

 

[SWT_USER]

Did I see a 700 heading towards London Bridge about 30/45 minutes ago or am I totally mistaken? Is this testing/ driver training?

 

[Bishopstone]

But in the not too distant future, they will be the trains that at least get you there whilst standing when it will be impossible to get on the conventional stock services at all.

Agreed, there is insufficient route capacity to add more trains for at least the next decade, as the decision re. the Tattenham services has proven. So you make the best of what you have.

But this was known, years ago, and the industry has done a poor job of expectation management. We're still getting the spin about 'more seats', when the reality is the opposite for all practical purposes, and thus there will be disappointment.

There was an opportunity missed, here, for more clinical price management of demand beyond the blunt instrument of the 09.30 off-peak watershed.

However, I'm guilty of dragging this away from the topic, so I'll leave it until I get an opportunity to ride the 700s.

 

[Nic Robinson]

Does anyone know if the diagram tomorrow will be the same as Monday/Wednesday?

Thanks,

Nic.

 

[Bald Rick]

Likewise Haywards Heath and Three Bridges, south of the Thames. This specific issue of seats - NOT overall passenger capacity - is one I and others raised in this thread going back a year or two.

But for many people it is an issue about overall passenger capacity. 3 times in two weeks I have been unable to board my chosen train to work as it was too full. I (and about 100 other people each time) would have been more than happy to have had a space to stand.

 

[hwl]

How many seats are there in a 12 coach 700 compared to a 12 coach 319/377/387 (excluding middle seats in a 319/377)?

12car 700 = 666 seats and circa 1100 standing

12car 319 = circa 775 seats (without middle seats) and some will have fewer.

 

[387star]

Did I see a 700 heading towards London Bridge about 30/45 minutes ago or am I totally mistaken? Is this testing/ driver training?

One left bridges in pass service for the bridge around 1ish

 

[Class377/5]

Agreed, there is insufficient route capacity to add more trains for at least the next decade, as the decision re. the Tattenham services has proven. So you make the best of what you have.

But this was known, years ago, and the industry has done a poor job of expectation management. We're still getting the spin about 'more seats', when the reality is the opposite for all practical purposes, and thus there will be disappointment.

There was an opportunity missed, here, for more clinical price management of demand beyond the blunt instrument of the 09.30 off-peak watershed.

However, I'm guilty of dragging this away from the topic, so I'll leave it until I get an opportunity to ride the 700s.

But more seats is actually the truth. Replacing mainly 8 car trains with 12 cars on Thameslink services is increasing get capacity. I believe on the MML gets the biggest increase with some like 40% more seats in the morning peak due to longer trains.

Even on the Southern region you get more seats with 5x 12 cars to Littlehampton vs 3x 12 cars today. And that's without accounting for the increased capacity with longer Southern services with released 377 from other duties. Plus your longer Thameslink trains with everything being 12 car vs the current single 12 car peak Thameslink service in the morning peak.

Just because individual trains have less seats doesn'the mean there will be less sets overall. But then again when passengers and passenger groups state they don't want 3+2 seats, not sure how you increase capacity on individual trains that are already at max.

12car 700 = 666 seats and circa 1100 standing

12car 319 = circa 775 seats (without middle seats) and some will have fewer.

There' no such thing as a 12 car 319 so they cannot run in 12 car formation so comparing them is fanasty. You also have to account for disable facilities which take up further space (which isn't a bad thing, the railway needs to be accessable) which your figures need to account for too.

There are around 70 more seats in a 12 car 377/5 than a 700. The difference is less with a 387 as it also has less seating with 2+2 throughout the train.

 

[hwl]

There' no such thing as a 12 car 319 so they cannot run in 12 car formation so comparing them is fanasty. You also have to account for disable facilities which take up further space (which isn't a bad thing, the railway needs to be accessable) which your figures need to account for too.

There are around 70 more seats in a 12 car 377/5 than a 700. The difference is less with a 387 as it also has less seating with 2+2 throughout the train.

I was only doing quick back of the fag packet estimate because someone asked...
I think we both agree that seats and overall capacity are going up with the 700s!

 

[jon0844]

It's the huge amount of standing room that will make the difference, just as it has on London Overground and on the S Stock.

The worst of the congestion will be near and through the core, so there should hopefully be a chance to get seats elsewhere. Even if you boarded at a station before the core and had to stand, once you get there people are going to get off so you'll be able to take their place.

Overall, I don't see a problem. If you're travelling at a time when 12 car trains are all packed and you stand every single day, it will be time to consider if you can stagger your hours because I can't see how it could be done any differently.

3+2 seating would have made these trains terrible. It's currently quite easy to get around, and pass people the aisles, which should make a massive difference to station dwell times and punctuality, which I am sure most people would favour.

Nobody wants the stress of wondering if they'll be able to get off the train having moved down, or what usually happens which is people won't move down so you struggle to board.

I am glad that the only 'complaints' are really the same as per the mock up train, and now it seems the DfT may well address that going forward.

 

[class387]

How long will the soft-launch last for? Because I remember with the 377/6s it lasted quite long.

 

[Class377/5]

I was only doing quick back of the fag packet estimate because someone asked...
I think we both agree that seats and overall capacity are going up with the 700s!

Oh ok, been stated before about how its unacceptable newer trains have less seating when its actually requested!

Is going to be a game changer (often overused term but I think it's earned), however the 40% growth in a decade means the use of that capacity is going to be used a lot quick than anyone thought.

How long will the soft-launch last for? Because I remember with the 377/6s it lasted quite long.

Depending on how this week goes not very long.

 

[radamfi]

Is the door button issue an oversight or deliberate design?

 

[dgl]

Is the door button issue an oversight or deliberate design?

I thought all newer stock was like this for safety reasons but I cannot recall what they were.

 

[Class377/5]

Does anyone know if the diagram tomorrow will be the same as Monday/Wednesday?

Thanks,

Nic.

I've already posted this. Try reading back the previous page and you won't have to ask.

Is the door button issue an oversight or deliberate design?

I thought all newer stock was like this for safety reasons but I cannot recall what they were.

What safety reasons are you guys on about? I'm actually at a complete loss as to the issue your actually talking about?

 

[absolutelymilk]

What safety reasons are you guys on about? I'm actually at a complete loss as to the issue your actually talking about?

I don't know what safety reasons they mean, but the issue is that if you press the button before it is ready, then it does not open - you have to press the button again.

 

[ainsworth74]

What safety reasons are you guys on about? I'm actually at a complete loss as to the issue your actually talking about?

On most rolling stock (all the ex-BR and until now Desiro family) if you hold in the 'Open' button before the doors are actually released (so for example as the train is rolling into the station) then when the doors are released the door will open. On others (predominantly Electrostars) if you hold the 'Open' button in then even when the doors are released they won't open and you'll have to release the button and press again.

 

[radamfi]

If you look at the Electrostar family, it does look like the door button "policy" was changed in later models, making it look like a mistake with the earlier 377s, so the door button behaviour with the 700s is a bit perplexing.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

On most rolling stock (all the ex-BR and until now Desiro family) if you hold in the 'Open' button before the doors are actually released (so for example as the train is rolling into the station) then when the doors are released the door will open. On others (predominantly Electrostars) if you hold the 'Open' button in then even when the doors are released they won't open and you'll have to release the button and press again.

Not on 14x or 15x types. As for the safety angle, consider a longish run between stations. Person A might inadvertently and unknowingly press a button and then move to somewhere else on the train. Person B then takes up a position by the door, with no intention of getting off at the next stop, and then gets caught out at that stop when the doors suddenly open. A small risk but it exists and is worth avoiding. The only proviso is that suitably rugged door control buttons are fitted.

 

[ainsworth74]

Not on 14x or 15x types.

It has worked on all 142, 150, 153, 156, and 158s that I've tried it on

 

[Class 466]

On most rolling stock (all the ex-BR and until now Desiro family) if you hold in the 'Open' button before the doors are actually released (so for example as the train is rolling into the station) then when the doors are released the door will open. On others (predominantly Electrostars) if you hold the 'Open' button in then even when the doors are released they won't open and you'll have to release the button and press again.

Why not just press it when it's illuminated? I don't think this is the case on any unit. I will often press the button before the train has stopped out of habit (on all sorts of units) and not once have the doors opened straight away on release.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

It has worked on all 142, 150, 153, 156, and 158s that I've tried it on

Only if you keep the button depressed. Perhaps that's what you actually meant. Either way it's hardly a hardship to wait for the button to illuminate.

 

[trainmania100]

Despite the seats being quite hard I am looking forward to riding Brighton to Cambridge on these.
Does anyone know when the Brighton Cambridge services will start?

 

[ainsworth74]

Only if you keep the button depressed. Perhaps that's what you actually meant. Either way it's hardly a hardship to wait for the button to illuminate.

On most rolling stock (all the ex-BR and until now Desiro family) if you hold in the 'Open' button before the doors are actually released (so for example as the train is rolling into the station) then when the doors are released the door will open.

 

[The Box Photter]

Who thinks commuters will move around based on what they see on the screens, relating to how busy each coach is?

Will people walk through, or change their habits, even if it means they'll no longer be right next to the exit/stairs at their destination?

On the midday run, it was quiet, but when it did fill up a little - it was just two coaches of the 12 that showed a change from light green to dark green.

Based on my observations, people will fill up the coaches nearest the stairs/exits. This means that it might be impossible to move past the crowded coaches into the less crowded coaches.

There needs to be some type of display on the platform showing intending passengers where the less busy coaches are. Its too late once you've got into a packed coach to move anywhere.

My thoughts are that "regulars" will soon work out where to stand to have the best chance of getting a seat and avoiding the coach with the "mobility impaired" spaces. At the moment on the 387s its a case of Russian Roulette whether the door you've positioned yourself for has the dreaded maroon stripes, meaning you're getting on where there are no seats.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How many seats are there in a 12 coach 700 compared to a 12 coach 319/377/387 (excluding middle seats in a 319/377)?

666 seats in total, but one third of the front and rear coaches are 1st class. A 3+2 12-car Class 377/5 has 729 seats, of which 30 are 1st class and 30 are declassified 1st class. I'm not sure about a 387/1 or 387/2. They have no 3+2 seating.

But train for train, a 12-car 700 has fewer, narrower seats (but more standing space). - Whoopee!

 

[Domh245]

Why not just press it when it's illuminated?

Because reaction times. If the doors open upon release (and button pressed down) you can eliminate the reaction time of the passenger. Given how the design of the train has focused on saving time in the core (wide doors, fixed position disabled access, train releasing doors itself when in DOO), I find it odd that they've gone and done this. I mean, based on a reaction time of half a second, that's a whole 2 seconds lost through the core alone!

I don't think this is the case on any unit. I will often press the button before the train has stopped out of habit (on all sorts of units) and not once have the doors opened straight away on release.

It definitely is! SWT 455s do it (apart from the ex-508 trailer cars IIRC), that I know

 

[jon0844]

The platform screens will show the information about how busy each coach is won't they? And if nothing else it will be harder to moan about the lack of room if the screens show room elsewhere!

 

[Bald Rick]

The platform screens will show the information about how busy each coach is won't they? And if nothing else it will be harder to moan about the lack of room if the screens show room elsewhere!

I look forward to the first visit of RPIs into first class, when a punter is gripped and says "but there are no seats in standard class".

RPI to slowly, and deliberately, turn head to on board display...

 

[jon0844]

I assume all data is logged (it should be to monitor trends and help future timetable planning) so it will even be possible for revenue to review how busy a train was when the person boarded!

 

[43074]

Despite the seats being quite hard I am looking forward to riding Brighton to Cambridge on these.
Does anyone know when the Brighton Cambridge services will start?

May 2018