Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[AM9]

It's hard to think of any GN location which will benefit. Those travelling longer distance get inferior trains, those nearer are locked in to 8-car trains with less seating. Lose-lose.

Then add in the inevitable inherent unreliability of importing delays from other areas, and it all amounts to a deeply unattractive package for the GN side.

The only improvement is the 377/5s coming over.

Some you win and some you lose. Only a couple of years to wait anyway.

I clearly remember the long thread about how the south-east gets everything new and the north get cast-offs. I commented at the time that there will be howls of complaints about the 700s when they arrive so some in the south east don't always get what they want, some in the south east moan about everthing they get anyway.

 

[grid56126]

This will need careful management otherwise trains will be attempting to leave with passengers still crowding round doorways waiting for another service. Another element that will thoroughly **** off GN commuters, who are used to joining their trains in a rather more civilised fashion at King's Cross.

A large number of whom come from the city and travel via Kings Cross rather than risking Moorgate / Finsbury Park on the way home so will doubtless simply pop over the footbridge at Farringdon off of the Met to guarantee a seat.

The addition of the GN onto the TL will throw up a number of interesting travel pattern changes and for every person that will bemoan the new changes I suspect there will be a number who will be much happier. I suspect there will be a number of changes to the numbers who change at Finsbury Park for Moorgate, staying on to Farringdon for the change instead. Likewise anyone travelling West is likely to stay on to Farringdon for the convenience of the cross platform interchange.

The hike from the low level platforms to the tube at Kings Cross will, I suspect play a large part in peoples travel behavior, with Finsbury Park likely to be more heavily used off of the Piccadilly and Victoria Northbound in the evenings.

All conjecture and all will be revealed in the coming years. . . .
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In addition, as I understand from some posts here, there will be 365s running from Peterborough, through Huntingdon to Kings Cross.Currently of the 6 Thameslink trains arriving at Kings Cross between 07:00 and 09:00 three take 83 mins and the other three take 65, 67 & 78 minutes. The 80+ minute trains are those providing service to all shacks to Stevenage so are not preferred for Peterborough to London journeys. The three fast Thameslink trains take 50 mins from Huntingdon to Kings Cross. I doubt that the new trains plus will be any slower and may have far better acceleration given their light weight and 5MW of power.

10 peak trains Peterborough to Kings Cross
3 x 12 car 365
3 x 8 car 365
1 x 8 car 317
1 x 8 car 321
2 x 12 car 321

That's a reasonable percentage already sitting in seats on 317s and 321s completely unsuitable for anything other than encroaching on your neighbors space whilst using a smartphone.

Will the few hundred that travel this morning on these formations (1 x 8 car 317 / 1 x 8 car 321 / 2 x 12 car 321) really be that upset by the 700s? I doubt it. I am privileged enough to have sampled the 700s for 3 hours of sitting and whilst I get that it was empty, it was a darn site more comfortable than 317s and 321s and with the wider aisles I would suggest they will be much less oppressive than people think. bear in mind I am a fan of 317s and 321s and have travelled many tens of thousands of miles on them, I would rate the 700 experience far higher, with or without tables.

I do hope they do see fit and retro fit the 700s with seat back tables but if they do I hope they are better than anything fitted to the 321s and as stable as those the 365s eventually got, without the awful scream as they are moved !!!

 

[swt_passenger]

The addition of the GN onto the TL will throw up a number of interesting travel pattern changes and for every person that will bemoan the new changes I suspect there will be a number who will be much happier. I suspect there will be a number of changes to the numbers who change at Finsbury Park for Moorgate, staying on to Farringdon for the change instead. Likewise anyone travelling West is likely to stay on to Farringdon for the convenience of the cross platform interchange.

...and there's also the effect of Crossrail to be added to the options at Farringdon, which will surely encourage further changes after just the first year of Thameslink running up the GN...

 

[Class377/5]

...and there's also the effect of Crossrail to be added to the options at Farringdon, which will surely encourage further changes after just the first year of Thameslink running up the GN...

Actually Crossrail will connect to the GN 700 service (Dec 2018) six months after the first 700 services on the GN (May 18).

Not forgetting Moorgate via Farringdon will be similar time as via Highbury come Dec 2018.

After being on a 700 for 4hrs while it's been running in the UK, I'm quite impressed and can't wait to using them everyday add they become my daily ride. The abilities of the units to reduce delays by being quicker can't be underestimated. They will make a big impact on the railway they will serve.

However one thing I keep thinking reading posts on here is they want more seats, more space, more facilties, more personalised transport yet don't understand they asking for opposites. This comments off less seats than they replace is a joke as the same people complain at 3+2 seating. Seems the demand is build a Tardis train! Thamesink and the routes it serves or will serve high volume comuter services that's rarely have people traveling the length used to bash the 700 but appears people believe their opinion is fact when it's. Knowing Bald Rick means I know his figure is backed up by traveling figures based on actual ticket sales and people's habits not personal opinion but seems he's ignored. Seems any time some is posted here on topic brings a shed load of compining with litle real evidence.

 

[Julian G]

Another delivery tommorow morning.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R00583/2015/12/16/advanced

 

[bramling]

Actually Crossrail will connect to the GN 700 service (Dec 2018) six months after the first 700 services on the GN (May 18).

Not forgetting Moorgate via Farringdon will be similar time as via Highbury come Dec 2018.

After being on a 700 for 4hrs while it's been running in the UK, I'm quite impressed and can't wait to using them everyday add they become my daily ride. The abilities of the units to reduce delays by being quicker can't be underestimated. They will make a big impact on the railway they will serve.

However one thing I keep thinking reading posts on here is they want more seats, more space, more facilties, more personalised transport yet don't understand they asking for opposites. This comments off less seats than they replace is a joke as the same people complain at 3+2 seating. Seems the demand is build a Tardis train! Thamesink and the routes it serves or will serve high volume comuter services that's rarely have people traveling the length used to bash the 700 but appears people believe their opinion is fact when it's. Knowing Bald Rick means I know his figure is backed up by traveling figures based on actual ticket sales and people's habits not personal opinion but seems he's ignored. Seems any time some is posted here on topic brings a shed load of compining with litle real evidence.

Perhaps one of you would like to post what the actual average journey time is on GN, today? Not Thameslink, but GN.

I'm not sure of the relevance of 3+2 seating, given we are primarily talking about 365s being replaced. Perhaps you'd like to find where I have complained about 3+2 seating? (The reality is 3+2 seating is used on the routes in question, suggesting people prefer to sit rather than stand.)

I've noticed you like to take someone's point and then appear to congratulate yourself for arguing against something different to the original point made.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A large number of whom come from the city and travel via Kings Cross rather than risking Moorgate / Finsbury Park on the way home so will doubtless simply pop over the footbridge at Farringdon off of the Met to guarantee a seat.

The addition of the GN onto the TL will throw up a number of interesting travel pattern changes and for every person that will bemoan the new changes I suspect there will be a number who will be much happier. I suspect there will be a number of changes to the numbers who change at Finsbury Park for Moorgate, staying on to Farringdon for the change instead. Likewise anyone travelling West is likely to stay on to Farringdon for the convenience of the cross platform interchange.

The hike from the low level platforms to the tube at Kings Cross will, I suspect play a large part in peoples travel behavior, with Finsbury Park likely to be more heavily used off of the Piccadilly and Victoria Northbound in the evenings.

All conjecture and all will be revealed in the coming years. . . .
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---



10 peak trains Peterborough to Kings Cross
3 x 12 car 365
3 x 8 car 365
1 x 8 car 317
1 x 8 car 321
2 x 12 car 321

That's a reasonable percentage already sitting in seats on 317s and 321s completely unsuitable for anything other than encroaching on your neighbors space whilst using a smartphone.

Will the few hundred that travel this morning on these formations (1 x 8 car 317 / 1 x 8 car 321 / 2 x 12 car 321) really be that upset by the 700s? I doubt it. I am privileged enough to have sampled the 700s for 3 hours of sitting and whilst I get that it was empty, it was a darn site more comfortable than 317s and 321s and with the wider aisles I would suggest they will be much less oppressive than people think. bear in mind I am a fan of 317s and 321s and have travelled many tens of thousands of miles on them, I would rate the 700 experience far higher, with or without tables.

I do hope they do see fit and retro fit the 700s with seat back tables but if they do I hope they are better than anything fitted to the 321s and as stable as those the 365s eventually got, without the awful scream as they are moved !!!

The preferable solution would be to replace the 317s & 321s with the 377/5s, with the 377/5s running the fast Cambridge services, and the 365s everything else. Can you, honestly, say the 700s are better than that combination?

If Thameslink wasn't pushing quite so many trains through the core, with say 3tph to the Great Northern, this would avoid some stations having 700s as their only option, and with less tph through the core perhaps the 700s wouldn't need quite such a basic layout as loading/unloading times wouldn't be so crucial. This approach would reduce the amount of imported delay too.

 

[grid56126]

The preferable solution would be to replace the 317s & 321s with the 377/5s, with the 377/5s running the fast Cambridge services, and the 365s everything else. Can you, honestly, say the 700s are better than that combination?

I doubt anybody knows what the final plan is yet, but as you asked my thoughts are:

My commutes were to Kings Cross (4 years) Liverpool Street (6 years), Victoria (5 years) and Blackfriars (South of river) 5 years.

If I was still living in Biggleswade my commutes would certainly be better than they were when I started in 1983, no wondering if the 03.15 staff DMU would turn up. . .

From a non enthusiast perspective . . . .
The 317s and 321s need to go, end of. I concur that 377/5s would be better than 365s. I regularly use 377s now and would choose them any day over a 365. The 365 seat pitch is awful and the recent suggestions here that people use the tables on them for work is a bit ambitious. Yes they are useful if you are having a cuppa but not much else,. My commute varied from reading a magazine / book through to listening to a bit of music whilst slurping a tea on the way home and on much quieter trains maybe enjoying a snack.

If I worked at Liverpool Street I suspect that Farringdon would be my change of choice, but back in the day changes at Finsbury Park / Moorgate on the Southbound were often taken when there was a 313 running in, Kings Cross the much more common trip.

Victoria? Bit of a no brainer, whatever train, change at Finsbury Park Southbound and Kings Cross Northbound. If you avoid the suggested routes the walk from the Victoria line is OK to the Kings Cross platforms and a bit of a pain to St Pancras low level.

Blackfriars. . . God if only that had been in place back then. My preferred commute was train to / from Kings Cross and then the 45/63 bus, occasionally a Thameslink with a stroll over the bridge when i was flush for time. Going home was a nightmare. All my shifts ended on the hour so I never made the fast trains home at xx.21 and was often too tight for comfort for the xx.36 and always planned to be on the "next" xx.21. If I could walk onto a through train home, or even change at Stevenage / Hitchin / from Blackfriars to wait the next train surely that is a no brainer?

Now back to the question. Let's say I am back to my regular commute? For ease of boarding and decent on board loos that are not cramped (I am old enough to need them too many times now) the 700s win hands down over anything that's out there (the small loos have sliding doors, not doors that mean you have to squeeze awkwardly). The seat pitch is certainly better than 365s and less cramped, so I guess a 700 wins for me.

The whole idyll of getting to Kings Cross and getting on a train in the station disappeared years ago when Major stations took over the control point and boarding of trains turned into a lottery, made worse by the recent addition of the gate lines and the last minute scrambles that are prevalent now.

At least if you are at Farringdon or St Pancras you know where the train will be and with knowledge of how late a train is at the tip of your fingertips, any aversion to platform waiting is easily overcome with tthe numerous diversions of retail outlets.

What is the genuine hardship that you fear?

 

[physics34]

Some you win and some you lose. Only a couple of years to wait anyway.

I clearly remember the long thread about how the south-east gets everything new and the north get cast-offs. I commented at the time that there will be howls of complaints about the 700s when they arrive so some in the south east don't always get what they want, some in the south east moan about everthing they get anyway.

Ha ha, i like your nonchalant anti passenger attitude! Not a criticism, just an observation!

"Like it or lump it !"
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

...and there's also the effect of Crossrail to be added to the options at Farringdon, which will surely encourage further changes after just the first year of Thameslink running up the GN...

Farrington will open up huge travelling opportunities. Takes alot of traffic of some tube lines and well as stations such as paddington.

I hope the station itself can cope

 

[AlexNL]

Yes. Yes it is. The contract to build the seats would have been awarded to Fainsa by Siemens a while ago, and it isn't unreasonable to expect Fainsa to have produced a large number of seats. There is a version of that seat with a table built in (as fitted to the latest electrostars) but you would have to write off all of the seat backs (at best! Potentially the whole seat) constructed so far, as well as a fee for changing the contract, and then essentially the same again for the new seat backs.

Is it too late? No, but it will come with a price tag. If Siemens is asked to add tables to the trains I am sure they'll happily oblige. The trains that have already been built will be retrofitted at some point and the parts that can't be re-used will be scrapped.

In the end it all comes down to how well DfT will listen to the passengers on the routes where the 700 will be used, and if DfT are willing to pay the bill. GTR can't help as they just run the trains they've been provided with.

 

[MML]

Excellent suggestion hwl. Now all I need to find is a station kiosk where I can set-up an outlet selling clamp on table devices to the masses.

Also regarding my suggestion of fitment of double seats instead of singles, there is a picture of a class 700 interior with 3 single seats all in a row. There looks plenty of room to add a double seat installation instead. This may only add an extra 3 seats, but could offer more if the seating layout is repeated throughout a 12-car unit.

 

[Domh245]

From memory, that is in the vicinity of the wheelchair space and accessible toilet (visible in rear) so adding an extra set of seats would make it rather impractical for wheelchair users to pass. I also think that there are only 2 examples of seating like this in the entire train, but again, I can't remember. I could have sworn there was a seating plan of the train at the mockup, but for the life of me I can't find it.

 

[MML]

Ah I wondered if that were the case. Seems odd that 2 half carriages are wheelchair compliant when in most cases, a half carriage adjacent to the toilet would normally suffice. Trains now seem to have better provision for PRM than the railway stations themselves. :roll:

Also noted in this picture of the first class compartment, the perfect positioning of the 'window' seat with a lovely view of a.....ahem...pillar.

Never mind. I won't ever be using that seat. I'll be standing looking in from the second class vestibule.

 

[westcoaster]

Ah I wondered if that were the case. Seems odd that 2 half carriages are wheelchair compliant when in most cases, a half carriage adjacent to the toilet would normally suffice. Trains now seem to have better provision for PRM than the railway stations themselves. :roll:

Also noted in this picture of the first class compartment, the perfect positioning of the 'window' seat with a lovely view of a.....ahem...pillar.

Never mind. I won't ever be using that seat. I'll be standing looking in from the second class vestibule.

Unless of course it's a standard class only service

 

[Bald Rick]

The middle two coaches on all the 700s are fully accessible, to line up with the the platform humps in the core and because, well, the trains reverse at the end of the line.

With just one fully accessible toilet, there needs to be an accessible route between the coaches.

 

[Julian G]

Pair of 700s out tonight.
5X01 Three Bridges-Bedford
5X10 Three Bridges-Harpenden

 

[455driver]

Yes, although neither was particularly dim, it was almost blinding looking at it straight on!

Just what you want when you are driving another train towards these things!

 

[AM9]

Ha ha, i like your nonchalant anti passenger attitude! Not a criticism, just an observation!

I'm not anti-passenger at all. I have never worked for any part of the rail industry in any capacity, but I am a fairly regular passenger through choice. I do however acknowledge the realities of the pseudo-privatised railway. All these hopes that complaining passengers will get things changed is futile. If a particular line/service has a captive customer base, - particularly including commuters, there is little or no incentive for the TOC or the DfT to provide anything other than the required capacity (and sometimes reduce maximum journey times). The current Thameslink services just about cope with 2015 demands. The Thameslink programme provides upgraded infrastructure and high capacity rolling stock to meet those criteria for at least the next decade according to growth predictions. Therefore the DfT has delivered from a political point of view. To the non Thameslink-commuting audience, passengers whingeing about tables for their coffee, seat armrests, etc., in their new £1.3bn trains running on infrastructure that has just had another 5bn from public funds spent on it will not get much sympathy, and they would be critical of the government wasting even more of 'our money' on such enhancements.

 

[Class 466]

700110 Has been delivered to Three Bridges Depot this morning

 

[jon0844]

I'm not anti-passenger at all. I have never worked for any part of the rail industry in any capacity, but I am a fairly regular passenger through choice. I do however acknowledge the realities of the pseudo-privatised railway. All these hopes that complaining passengers will get things changed is futile. If a particular line/service has a captive customer base, - particularly including commuters, there is little or no incentive for the TOC or the DfT to provide anything other than the required capacity (and sometimes reduce maximum journey times). The current Thameslink services just about cope with 2015 demands. The Thameslink programme provides upgraded infrastructure and high capacity rolling stock to meet those criteria for at least the next decade according to growth predictions. Therefore the DfT has delivered from a political point of view. To the non Thameslink-commuting audience, passengers whingeing about tables for their coffee, seat armrests, etc., in their new £1.3bn trains running on infrastructure that has just had another 5bn from public funds spent on it will not get much sympathy, and they would be critical of the government wasting even more of 'our money' on such enhancements.

I think it's okay to express disappointment at certain aspects of the design, as long as people can still understand and accept the reasons behind it.

It seems the DfT may get a lot of criticism for some decisions, but we can see from the original spec that things like fold down tables were excluded because of the (obvious when you think about it) problem of it delaying boarding and alighting when people have got their laptop out, plugged in and made it harder for people in the window seat to get in/out. That's why I wondered if we could have had tables only for window seats, as you're only affecting yourself (or maybe fold down tables could only be nearer the ends of the carriages away from the doors).

By all accounts from the test train some of us saw, the DfT seems to have done a bloody good job and I suspect most of the issues will be down to infrastructure and trying to maintain a high level of service with fairly little recovery, and also reliant on good passenger behaviour (I am VERY sceptical of this).

The bigger issue goes back from a long time before the procurement of new rolling stock. It goes back to when it was decided to just have two platforms at St Pancras, and what the plans are for 10-20 years time if growth continues at a fast pace.

Perhaps other lines (Crossrail 2) will relieve some pressure, or more trains could start/end at King's Cross again if demand requires, but I have relatively few complaints about the 700s overall.

 

[swt_passenger]

It seems the DfT may get a lot of criticism for some decisions, but we can see from the original spec that things like fold down tables were excluded...

They weren't explicitly excluded though. If the 'original spec' is taken to be the 2008 rolling stock high level specification the wording was:

12.1.2 The emerging specification(s) for the interior is likely to include the following

"access to a table, either fixed or folding, for most seated passengers;"

Someone raised an FOI about the lack of tables, the DfT reply was basically that the final interior layout was delegated to FCC.

BTW, the same spec included:

Wi-Fi connectivity throughout the train, with 240V low current socket outlets
at-seat in all or part of each train;

 

[jon0844]

While I'd like to see USB ports (capable of outputting at 2-3A or possibly even more to charge next generation tablets and laptops) everywhere, I am now generally fine with carrying my own power pack - so I can charge in my pocket or in a bag anywhere.

I think the fact that people are so outraged by the lack of tables is hopefully a good sign - in that there's very little else to fault.

 

[Dr Iver]

Meanwhile, out in the real world, another got delivered this morning!

Also seen one with sand bags and water containers inside of it out and about.

 

[absolutelymilk]

Meanwhile, out in the real world, another got delivered this morning!

How many have been delivered now?

 

[AM9]

While I'd like to see USB ports (capable of outputting at 2-3A or possibly even more to charge next generation tablets and laptops) everywhere, I am now generally fine with carrying my own power pack - so I can charge in my pocket or in a bag anywhere.

I think the fact that people are so outraged by the lack of tables is hopefully a good sign - in that there's very little else to fault.

I agree. If that's all that is complained about then there won't be a rush to put them all through any modofication programme. When the seats need a refurbishment, there will be an opportunity to fit shelf tables or pull down flaps if it is considered important enough.
Just look at the clamour about the firm seats on the 387s, that seems to have faded away now. I didn't notice anything in the general press about them so I assume that it wasn't newsworthy.

 

[bengley]

How many have been delivered now?

Four.

 

[jon0844]

I agree. If that's all that is complained about then there won't be a rush to put them all through any modofication programme. When the seats need a refurbishment, there will be an opportunity to fit shelf tables or pull down flaps if it is considered important enough.
Just look at the clamour about the firm seats on the 387s, that seems to have faded away now. I didn't notice anything in the general press about them so I assume that it wasn't newsworthy.

The 387 seats are firm but I think they're actually quite comfortable and make you sit better.

So, it doesn't surprise me that users aren't out with pitchforks and demanding blood over the issue.

 

[southern442]

The 387 seats are firm but I think they're actually quite comfortable and make you sit better.

So, it doesn't surprise me that users aren't out with pitchforks and demanding blood over the issue.

The ironing boards aren't horrendous seats, I don't find them uncomfortable, but compared to older 377 models, they are not as good. One of my biggest complaints about the seats is that they are being used on the 387/2's, so the more expensive option is actually less comfortable. Also note that some 377's actually have a proper first class, and I think it is shocking that the interior is no different for a premium service. They call expensive things premium for a reason.

On the 700's they allegedly () have more padding, which is fine by me. My complaining with the 700's is that they don't have any extras such as tables. As far as first class on the 700's, I don't think it is that bad. The seats are bigger than standard, and they have armrests and tables, so it's good that they are worth paying extra for.

 

[Fincra5]

I feel that passengers will feel these as a downgrade to the 387's they have as a stop gap.

Driving past them and looking inside you're like... "meh".

I know 387's have problems and aren't to stay but to the general passenger they seem for more well equipped.

 

[AM9]

I feel that passengers will feel these as a downgrade to the 387's they have as a stop gap.

Driving past them and looking inside you're like... "meh".

I know 387's have problems and aren't to stay but to the general passenger they seem for more well equipped.

They don't when they are absolutely packed with standees clogging up the aisle.

 

[physics34]

The 387 seats are firm but I think they're actually quite comfortable and make you sit better.

So, it doesn't surprise me that users aren't out with pitchforks and demanding blood over the issue.

although the seats are quite firm, they are at a good pitch so, yes they seem good on posture.

I still believe on longer journeys numb-bum occurs, and the ride quality of this type of stock isnt great so you can feel the ride over points etc through your spine.

I just dont understand why we have gone away from sprung seats.....

the early 377 2x2 seating have sprung seats even, but the 377/2, /4s, /5s and onwards don't and its noticable.

I just feel like its a dumbing down of journey quality overall..... and the lack of tables etc etc on 700s is yet another dumbing down.

My final point on 700s lack of seats (for a while hopefully) is that i drove an East Grinstead to London Bridge the other day (which will eventually be 700s) and a large number of people had a cup of coffee in their hands... and were carrying laptops and tablets... (im talking about 60 odd people at upper warlingham alone)

Everyone of these people will people will have an issue come the 700s.