Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[Bald Rick]

The main problem at St Albans is that passengers from that city do not want to spend more than about 20 minutes on their morning train into London. This is why they jam themselves uncomfortably into the fast trains and ignore the stopping service that conveniently starts at St Albans, on which they'd all definitely get a seat. I know the "stopper" takes a bit longer, but as it calls at West Hampstead it would allow a convenient interchange with the Jubilee line for passengers wanting Canary Wharf.

Those of us who actually commute from St Albans will tell you that the peak semi fast trains (taking 8 minutes longer than a fast, none of which start from St Albans) each have around 2-300 or so people joining at St Albans, and the stoppers (+16 minutes) about 100, ie trading time for a seat. Anyone who commutes to Canary Wharf already gets them for the change at W Hampstead to the Jubilee (About 3-400 people alight each peak semi fast there, the staff at the W Hamp LU station can set their watches by it).

 

[Bishopstone]

GOing back to the East Grinstead and Littlehampton workings.... these will have less seats than they have now. Im not sure at the loadings of Littlehampton trains but I know the grinnies to will now be standing only from oxted rather than Riddlesdown.

I can't confirm from first hand experience, but I've heard a number of anecdotes which suggest one or two ex-Littlehampton trains - already 12-car - are full and standing from Hove outside the school holidays. I suppose, with people interchanging, some/all of the standees might grab seats at Haywards Heath, Three Bridges or Gatwick.

It does seem likely the arrival of the 700s will result in more standing from Haywards Heath (45 minutes), if not further out. I'm East Coastway, and I know there would be standing from Lewes (60 minutes) on a few trains were they replacing 377s/442s 'like for like' here. But we had a lucky escape.

I wonder whether this decade is 'peak London'? They do have Starbucks and Waitrose in Birmingham, and a stroll into the city centre from a nice house in Edgbaston sounds more appealing than a silly-o-clock alarm call and strapper-hanging from Burgess Hill to City Thameslink.

 

[AM9]

Those of us who actually commute from St Albans will tell you that the peak semi fast trains (taking 8 minutes longer than a fast, none of which start from St Albans) each have around 2-300 or so people joining at St Albans, and the stoppers (+16 minutes) about 100, ie trading time for a seat. Anyone who commutes to Canary Wharf already gets them for the change at W Hampstead to the Jubilee (About 3-400 people alight each peak semi fast there, the staff at the W Hamp LU station can set their watches by it).

Demand for the fasts will increase post 2018 when Crossrail interchange at Farringdon arrives. This means that many of those alighting at West Hampstead will stay on until Farringdon, as may some of those working near Stratford and Paddington/Willesden/OOC.
Thameslink is a Jekyll and Hyde railway. In the peak it is an outer suburban/metro operation where moving as many bodies as possible safely is the sole aim, whereas off peak, it becomes an outer suburban line with options for destinations up to about one hour north and south of London. The rolling stock will inevitably be a compromise, but the 700s seem to fit that bill with adequate seating for normal off peak traffic, a massive capacity for peak loading (c1700 passengers), good acceleration and 100mph top speed.
If they deliver on all of that, I think that those specifying and delivering them will have done a pretty good job. Of course as with any compromise, there will be some who criticise some aspects, but I doubt that those critics will have any better solution that meets all the requirements.

 

[asylumxl]

Those of us who actually commute from St Albans will tell you that the peak semi fast trains (taking 8 minutes longer than a fast, none of which start from St Albans) each have around 2-300 or so people joining at St Albans, and the stoppers (+16 minutes) about 100, ie trading time for a seat.

I usually catch the semi-fast from further north and while a decent number of people do join the train at St Albans (perhaps 15-20 per carriage), it's not uncommon to look across at platform 3 and see people ramming themselves on the fasts still. They'd literally lose 10 minutes at most. I don't understand the logic.

 

[AM9]

I can't confirm from first hand experience, but I've heard a number of anecdotes which suggest one or two ex-Littlehampton trains - already 12-car - are full and standing from Hove outside the school holidays. I suppose, with people interchanging, some/all of the standees might grab seats at Haywards Heath, Three Bridges or Gatwick.

It does seem likely the arrival of the 700s will result in more standing from Haywards Heath (45 minutes), if not further out. I'm East Coastway, and I know there would be standing from Lewes (60 minutes) on a few trains were they replacing 377s/442s 'like for like' here. But we had a lucky escape.

South of the river, Thameslink services satisfy a different market. There are (and will be) many other faster trains between Brighton/Hove and London, so many of those who think that a seat is more important have the option to change at stations before Three Bridges or even to get a Coastway West train and board a starter at Brighton. That sort of choice doesn't really exist north of London.

I wonder whether this decade is 'peak London'? They do have Starbucks and Waitrose in Birmingham, and a stroll into the city centre from a nice house in Edgbaston sounds more appealing than a silly-o-clock alarm call and strapper-hanging from Burgess Hill to City Thameslink.

That's your choice, but Birmingham doesn't seem to be that well endowed with Waitrose stores yet, - coffee shops are everywhere though, (of course you won't get a free cup like in Waitrose!)

 

[JaJaWa]

All new franchise agreements, including GTR's, contain a clause that passengers must have a reasonable expectation of a seat on all off-peak services, and within 20 minutes of boarding on a peak service. I can't imagine many TOCs meeting that

When First Capital Connect first started, their posters said "we promise you a seat on every off-peak train"!

 

[Class377/5]

Well if people are dumb enough to ignore the other 10 carriages of a 12 car train or 6 of an 8 car just so they can be closer to the escalator at City Thameslink they deserve to be left behind. This could be solved by better management of passengers by platform staff and better indications as to where each set of doors will stop at the platform.

Sorry but staff do try and passengers refuse especially in the Core stations. Unless staff are allowed to force passengers then your idea falls flat on its face.

The main problem at St Albans is that passengers from that city do not want to spend more than about 20 minutes on their morning train into London. This is why they jam themselves uncomfortably into the fast trains and ignore the stopping service that conveniently starts at St Albans, on which they'd all definitely get a seat. I know the "stopper" takes a bit longer, but as it calls at West Hampstead it would allow a convenient interchange with the Jubilee line for passengers wanting Canary Wharf.

People choose with thier feet.

Perhaps there is a sensible business case for running a few St Albans express trains slightly ahead of the normal semi-fasts, only calling at West Hampstead for interchange with Jubilee line and Kentish Town for the Northern line. These trains could then run to East Croydon and turn there to do the opposite into London from the south, calling only at London Bridge (if that ever reopens). As St Albans passengers are happy to stand, these trains could have no seats at all, thus allowing maximum use of every square metre of floor space. On arrival that St Pancras, the platform side of the train (which will be equipped with roller shutters along its entire length) will open, thus allowing maximum egress space.

No business case exists as there isn't the capacity there on the current lines. Not that East Croydon could cope either as it's already busy in the morning peak. As it is Kentish Town only gets a 2tph service in peak (vs 6tph off peak) because of problems with capacity.

Not quite sure at your dig at Bridge the rebuilding time so guessing it's just you being negative for no actual there. But then your comments over no seats shows your defending into a rant.

so you want trains with no seats? why are we aiming for more standing places..... things should be getting better, not worse!

And passengers using the fast service should use the slow one cos there is more space..... no, why should they? Demand says there should be more fast services!

No capacity for any more services. Post 2018 your going to have 16tph Thameslink trains on the MML compared to today's 15. Different is the length meaning an actual increase in seats despite claims otherwise on here.

I can't confirm from first hand experience, but I've heard a number of anecdotes which suggest one or two ex-Littlehampton trains - already 12-car - are full and standing from Hove outside the school holidays. I suppose, with people interchanging, some/all of the standees might grab seats at Haywards Heath, Three Bridges or Gatwick.

It does seem likely the arrival of the 700s will result in more standing from Haywards Heath (45 minutes), if not further out. I'm East Coastway, and I know there would be standing from Lewes (60 minutes) on a few trains were they replacing 377s/442s 'like for like' here. But we had a lucky escape.

I wonder whether this decade is 'peak London'? They do have Starbucks and Waitrose in Birmingham, and a stroll into the city centre from a nice house in Edgbaston sounds more appealing than a silly-o-clock alarm call and strapper-hanging from Burgess Hill to City Thameslink.

Littlehampton peaks I've been on got me a seat south of Gatwick every single day unless there was disprution. And they aren't all 12 cars at present either.

I don't agree with more standing as get trains. Techinally Brighton gets around 2-3tph (it varies a tad with 0700-0759 having only two trains) Thameslink in the morning so this limits opitions. A more standard timetable will give choice for passengers with more 12 car trains across the board.

 

[jon0844]

When First Capital Connect first started, their posters said "we promise you a seat on every off-peak train"!

Well, every train has seats. Nothing to guarantee you can sit on one though!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Well, every train has seats. Nothing to guarantee you can sit on one though!

The Franchise specifies seats for all off peak passengers (caveated of course for football / special events days)

 

[JaJaWa]

The Franchise specifies seats for all off peak passengers (caveated of course for football / special events days)

I was wondering why Govia sent me a calendar detailing a special event that is occurring on every day next year!

 

[The Box Photter]

@377/5 - You are Charles Horton and I claim my £5.

I think the reason that people tend to cluster near where the front of the train will stop at St Pancras is because that's where the signs say the trains stop. There is no effective signage to tell people where the back of the train will be (usually where there is more room). This means that passengers are reluctant to pass down the platform in case they stand where the train isn't going to be. This will still be an issue with a mix of 8 and 12 car trains.

You seem to know a great deal more than me about line capacity, so I bow to your superior knowledge. The only question I'd ask is that as the Thameslink franchise and its tentacles spread wider, how are all the Ex-GN trains going to find paths in 3rd rail land. The current timetable north of St Pancras is a mess of ill-timed and conflicting trains, having to weave in and out of the EMT expresses. If we had a truly integrated railway instead of the omnishambles created by privatisation, the route could operate at optimum capacity.

At present, everything has to give way to EMT. This puts massive pressure on the slow lines north of St Albans in the evening peak, often resulting in fast Thameslink trains being pushed onto the slow lines behind stopping services. How come that EMT gets priority when some of the Thameslink fasts are class 1 workings?

 

[MCR247]

I'm pretty sure a Sheffield fast would get priority over a TL train regardless of operator due to the potential knock on effects

 

[Bald Rick]

The current timetable north of St Pancras is a mess of ill-timed and conflicting trains, having to weave in and out of the EMT expresses. If we had a truly integrated railway instead of the omnishambles created by privatisation, the route could operate at optimum capacity.

At present, everything has to give way to EMT. This puts massive pressure on the slow lines north of St Albans in the evening peak, often resulting in fast Thameslink trains being pushed onto the slow lines behind stopping services. How come that EMT gets priority when some of the Thameslink fasts are class 1 workings?

The MML does operate at optimum capacity for the mix of traffic and stopping patterns on it. I have known the guys who write it for many years, and they have worked hard to create something that is a much better timetable than it was 10 years ago. Perhaps you would like to write something better?

Thameslink fast services are not 'pushed' onto the slow lines behind stopping services, unless of course, there is some sort of disruption. But that is not the fault of the timetable. As only a handful of TL trains are not all stations north of St Albans, the impact is relatively contained. The Thameslink fasts class 1/2 designation are purely to designate their stopping pattern south of London by the way.

 

[AM9]

@377/5 - You are Charles Horton and I claim my £5.

I think the reason that people tend to cluster near where the front of the train will stop at St Pancras is because that's where the signs say the trains stop. There is no effective signage to tell people where the back of the train will be (usually where there is more room). This means that passengers are reluctant to pass down the platform in case they stand where the train isn't going to be. This will still be an issue with a mix of 8 and 12 car trains.

Well there is some sort of assistance:
The platforms are divided into three sections, A,B & C (or maybe 1,2 & 3 as the platforms are A & B) starting from the northern end next to the Canal Tunnel junction. The indicators normally say whether the trains are 4, 8 or 12 car and indicate accordingly which sections of the platform it will stop by, AFAIR 4 cars stop by B(1), 8 cars by A & B (1 & 2) and 12 cars by A, B & C (1,2 & 3). Having provided that information, many people seem to cluster around the bottom of the escalators which happens to be right for the exit at St Albans, the busiest Thameslink station on the MML.
The system could also work in a slightly modified form with the 700s. They will all stop midway so that the Accessible entrances align with the raised part of the platform, ATO permitting of course! Although passengers would only need to walk a maximum of 40m if they stood in the wrong place for the train length.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Perhaps you would like to write something better?

Don't encourage them, though amateur timetables with the one train they use timetabled for 175 mph and everything else doing 12mph can be funny on occasion.

 

[ComUtoR]

I think the reason that people tend to cluster near where the front of the train will stop at St Pancras is because that's where the signs say the trains stop. There is no effective signage to tell people where the back of the train will be (usually where there is more room). This means that passengers are reluctant to pass down the platform in case they stand where the train isn't going to be. This will still be an issue with a mix of 8 and 12 car trains.

Passenger mentality isn't that sophisticated. They board based on where they get off. Passengers also sit/stand in the same place day, day out. If anything sit in the middle of the train. Many stations alight at either end so tend to be packed.

There are signs at Blackfriars and it makes little to no difference.

 

[Class377/5]

@377/5 - You are Charles Horton and I claim my £5.

Nope. Where do I collect my £5?

I think the reason that people tend to cluster near where the front of the train will stop at St Pancras is because that's where the signs say the trains stop. There is no effective signage to tell people where the back of the train will be (usually where there is more room). This means that passengers are reluctant to pass down the platform in case they stand where the train isn't going to be. This will still be an issue with a mix of 8 and 12 car trains.

Not really as it will be fixed, 12s to Bedford with a few 12s to Luton, 8s elsewhere. The only variant will be 8 instead of 12. But thats what announcements are for, although current experience people ignore them anyway. Once 2018 comes and you get one class of train and fixed stopping at all Core stations then it'll be easy to work out.

You seem to know a great deal more than me about line capacity, so I bow to your superior knowledge. The only question I'd ask is that as the Thameslink franchise and its tentacles spread wider, how are all the Ex-GN trains going to find paths in 3rd rail land. The current timetable north of St Pancras is a mess of ill-timed and conflicting trains, having to weave in and out of the EMT expresses. If we had a truly integrated railway instead of the omnishambles created by privatisation, the route could operate at optimum capacity.

Paths already exist so no issue there. as for resuls of privatisation, well want the raiwas doing and is well off topic.

At present, everything has to give way to EMT. This puts massive pressure on the slow lines north of St Albans in the evening peak, often resulting in fast Thameslink trains being pushed onto the slow lines behind stopping services. How come that EMT gets priority when some of the Thameslink fasts are class 1 workings?

Not everything gives way to EMT. Fast trains aren't pushed unless they are stoppers which makes complete sense. You also seem to question why one faster class 1 working gets priorty over a slower class 1. Makes sense to me. Faster goes on fast lines generally (there places on Thameslink the opposite is true).

 

[A-driver]

@377/5 - You are Charles Horton and I claim my £5.



I think the reason that people tend to cluster near where the front of the train will stop at St Pancras is because that's where the signs say the trains stop. There is no effective signage to tell people where the back of the train will be (usually where there is more room). This means that passengers are reluctant to pass down the platform in case they stand where the train isn't going to be. This will still be an issue with a mix of 8 and 12 car trains.



You seem to know a great deal more than me about line capacity, so I bow to your superior knowledge. The only question I'd ask is that as the Thameslink franchise and its tentacles spread wider, how are all the Ex-GN trains going to find paths in 3rd rail land. The current timetable north of St Pancras is a mess of ill-timed and conflicting trains, having to weave in and out of the EMT expresses. If we had a truly integrated railway instead of the omnishambles created by privatisation, the route could operate at optimum capacity.



At present, everything has to give way to EMT. This puts massive pressure on the slow lines north of St Albans in the evening peak, often resulting in fast Thameslink trains being pushed onto the slow lines behind stopping services. How come that EMT gets priority when some of the Thameslink fasts are class 1 workings?

You seem to misunderstand. The ex trains won't need new paths as they will 'become' existing trains. The tattenham-London bridge train will no longer terminate at London Bridge but run into Cambridge. The current Horsham to London Bridge train will continue to Peterborough.

So it's extending existing trains, not running new ones the majority of the time.

 

[Bald Rick]

I usually catch the semi-fast from further north and while a decent number of people do join the train at St Albans (perhaps 15-20 per carriage), it's not uncommon to look across at platform 3 and see people ramming themselves on the fasts still. They'd literally lose 10 minutes at most. I don't understand the logic.

I can attest from personal experience that you are not guaranteed a seat from St Albans on the semi fasts. I'm standing on one right now.

So given the choice of standing for 30 mins on a semi, or standing for 20 mins on a fast, right now I'd prefer the latter.

 

[JaJaWa]

Well there is some sort of assistance:
The platforms are divided into three sections, A,B & C (or maybe 1,2 & 3 as the platforms are A & B) starting from the northern end next to the Canal Tunnel junction. The indicators normally say whether the trains are 4, 8 or 12 car and indicate accordingly which sections of the platform it will stop by, AFAIR 4 cars stop by B(1), 8 cars by A & B (1 & 2) and 12 cars by A, B & C (1,2 & 3). Having provided that information, many people seem to cluster around the bottom of the escalators which happens to be right for the exit at St Albans, the busiest Thameslink station on the MML.
The system could also work in a slightly modified form with the 700s. They will all stop midway so that the Accessible entrances align with the raised part of the platform, ATO permitting of course! Although passengers would only need to walk a maximum of 40m if they stood in the wrong place for the train length.

Sadly the zones only displayed on the PIS screens at St Pancras for a few months after it opened as it was "confusing passengers".

 

[richieb1971]

When will these start to appear in Bedford?

 

[jon0844]

Sadly the zones only displayed on the PIS screens at St Pancras for a few months after it opened as it was "confusing passengers".

I wonder if markings (lines?) on the floor would have been better? Showing the end of a 4 or 8 car train - or whatever.

Blackfriars does have signs on the platform (not the wall) showing where the end of the trains will be and that's rather useful for people coming up from the south bank side and not knowing how far to walk up. If everyone played safe, they'd all be bunched up and trying to board the first 2-3 carriages!

 

[Class377/5]

Next unit should arrive this week. Should be 700108.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O37072/2015/10/28/advanced

 

[fgwrich]

Next unit should arrive this week. Should be 700108.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O37072/2015/10/28/advanced

I Think GBRf must have been going for a new speed record on that delivery too - Royal Maul take note!

•Timed for 168mph max

Good to see the second has now arrived. Will this symbolize the start of regular deliveries for now on? (Apologies if ive missed the bit that says so!)

 

[Class377/5]

I Think GBRf must have been going for a new speed record on that delivery too - Royal Maul take note!

Good to see the second has now arrived. Will this symbolize the start of regular deliveries for now on? (Apologies if ive missed the bit that says so!)

There has been regular deliveries (monthly at moment) since 700106 arrived. Plan is five in the UK by Christmas. Once into 2016 they really ramp up but weekly deliveries is expected nearer Easter (don't have the date myself).

On the plus side I should see this one delivered, although path time is different to normal.

 

[Jedipickles]

Next unit should arrive this week. Should be 700108.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O37072/2015/10/28/advanced

6X66 is Cancelled

 

[Minstral25]

6X66 is Cancelled

Presume that was because of the disaster of a train service around Redhill route and Gatwick last night, which seems to have included a late overnight engineers possession at Redhill that caught Southern control out completely.

 

[Class377/5]

Presume that was because of the disaster of a train service around Redhill route and Gatwick last night, which seems to have included a late overnight engineers possession at Redhill that caught Southern control out completely.

Nothing to do with as it didn't make it through the tunnel. Cause was failed NR train between Horsham and Three Bridges.

Another move planned for tonight

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O37421/2015/10/29/advanced

 

[insane_lewis]

I've just seen it into the depot

 

[zdz]

Yep 700108 sitting at TBD depot this morning.

Question; there are a lot of other wagons (ISO crates) on the train, along with the unit itself. What would be in those?