Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[fgwrich]

I think the Electrostars with 3+2 seating have a very narrow aisle. This is particularly noticeable with the 357 variant with c2c, but also can be seen on the 377s. The 350/360/450s are virtually the same too.

That said, I used one of SWTs 458s the other night - the aisle on those with their 3+2 is much worse compared to a 450. I know the Juniper seats are fairly comfortable, but is a pain to walk down compared to a equally packed 450!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Just found this company on google.

They seam to be a Design specialist working on 700

http://schoenemanndesign.co.uk/portfolio/

Some interesting pics on there.

Urgh, yuck. Some Interesting finds on there and some unpleasant ones too:

The original renders for the Class 180s having a Barbie interior with GWT Green seats for example, or the worst being the original proposals (just as the same time as FGW is distancing itself from First into the smarter Great Western Railway) for National Express Great Western // NXGW with drab looking 153s, 158s, 321s? and some interestingly odd new train proposal from NX - http://schoenemanndesign.co.uk/2013/01/14/876/

The more I see how depressing those NX colours are, the more I'm glad to look at the First Group colour pallet! I'm possibly in the minority in thinking that the Desiro City for Thameslink looked rather good in FCC livery too!

 

[Manchester77]

Think the new train is an early render of an IEP train when it was still a locomotive and coaches job before it became the overpriced multiple unit we know today!

The 175 business class proposal is interesting, it's sensible that it wasn't done though, it'd kill capacity especially on the two car sets: http://schoenemanndesign.co.uk/2013/01/14/843/

 

[hassaanhc]

That said, I used one of SWTs 458s the other night - the aisle on those with their 3+2 is much worse compared to a 450. I know the Juniper seats are fairly comfortable, but is a pain to walk down compared to a equally packed 450!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'd forgotten that one! You are correct

 

[jon0844]

The 700 with FCC colours was less bland, but I guess a bland interior doesn't matter these days as people will only be looking at their phone or tablet for the whole journey anyway.

 

[thelem]

Sorry if I've missed this previously, but if the 700s are already well into the construction phase, why is it so long until the first one is delivered? My understanding (which may be wrong) is that the 387s were ordered after construction of 700s started, but the first 387 will be in service a year before the first 700.

 

[jopsuk]

The 387s are a minor modification of an existing design. The 387s not being 377/8 is just another one of these arbitrary numbering quirks. The 700s are a very different unit, in technical terms, to the previous Desiro UKs, and therefore need much more testing. Presumably there's a test track being fitted with the automatic train control system for the Thameslink Core so that can be tested?

 

[AM9]

The 387s are a minor modification of an existing design. The 387s not being 377/8 is just another one of these arbitrary numbering quirks. The 700s are a very different unit, in technical terms, to the previous Desiro UKs, and therefore need much more testing. Presumably there's a test track being fitted with the automatic train control system for the Thameslink Core so that can be tested?

If the Hertford loop is being used for ETCS with a 313, will the 700s also be tested under ATO there?

 

[Class377/5]

Sorry if I've missed this previously, but if the 700s are already well into the construction phase, why is it so long until the first one is delivered? My understanding (which may be wrong) is that the 387s were ordered after construction of 700s started, but the first 387 will be in service a year before the first 700.

The 387s are a minor modification of an existing design. The 387s not being 377/8 is just another one of these arbitrary numbering quirks. The 700s are a very different unit, in technical terms, to the previous Desiro UKs, and therefore need much more testing. Presumably there's a test track being fitted with the automatic train control system for the Thameslink Core so that can be tested?

If the Hertford loop is being used for ETCS with a 313, will the 700s also be tested under ATO there?

As Jopsuk states the 387/1 are simply a follow on order where as the 700s are a new design including software that requires testing.

Also note that Bombardier can produce a single 4 car 387/1 in a week where Siemens is able to build single 12 car 700/1 in a week due to the latter having a bigger production facilities given to its build.

The first 700 is due to arrive in August 2015, a month after the final 387/1. However there's a lot of testing to be done with the Class 700s, they need to be cleared Bedford to Brighton and into Victoria prior to entering service. The first 700 will be handed over to GTR in December 2015 with it being put into public service in the first half of 2016 (can't give more details on the date).

Don't forget that getting the 700s into service also requires a lot of driver training which will take a long time. The first drivers being training start in a few months IIRC and it will be ongoing during the delivery of the units.

ATO system is not being tested in Germany but in the UK. The Hertford Loop is the national testing center, chosen in part as its close to a Thameslink depot for the Class 700 testing. All the 700s will visit there to commission the ATO, while 313121 tests the Core ahead of any 700 ATO testing.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Is it possible that SWT could borrow be loaned one eventually for getting route clearance work done in case they were to order some eventually?

 

[Class377/5]

Is it possible that SWT could borrow be loaned one eventually for getting route clearance work done in case they were to order some eventually?

Not really as the ones that SWT has supposedly ordering from Siemens are going to be different enough. Plus there are certain things you can't test like coupled units on the 700s as they wont act in the same way as the new 5 cars will.

 

[Alfie1014]

Spotted this picture posted on another website, note not my photo.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/42358390@N03/15200222562/in/pool-europeanrail

 

[thelem]

Spotted this picture posted on another website, note not my photo.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/42358390@N03/15200222562/in/pool-europeanrail

It looks a bit dirty, and it's not even off the test track!

 

[Class377/5]

Spotted this picture posted on another website, note not my photo.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/42358390@N03/15200222562/in/pool-europeanrail

GTR 700101 VUZ Velim 10-09-14 by PA1930, on Flickr

Nice photo. There are now photos of 700103 with its numbers slightly higher than the rest.

 

[sarahj]

Its depressing, you see these trains running fine on the test track with Re200 overhead (poss even Re350) with its Y hangers and wind protection wires. Then you wonder how it will cope with the spiders web, blowing in the wind stuff we use. Even UK style pantos look very basic to what is used overseas thesedays. (check out a german DSA/SBS 350).
Oh well, nevermind. I'm sure all will be well and we will soon be sending out our drivers to learn the thing. Some are quite looking forward to it, even when you say its 2 weeks driving round in clrcles in the middle of knowhere. (its an ex RAf base).

 

[deltic08]

Its depressing, you see these trains running fine on the test track with Re200 overhead (poss even Re350) with its Y hangers and wind protection wires. Then you wonder how it will cope with the spiders web, blowing in the wind stuff we use. Even UK style pantos look very basic to what is used overseas thesedays. (check out a german DSA/SBS 350).
Oh well, nevermind. I'm sure all will be well and we will soon be sending out our drivers to learn the thing. Some are quite looking forward to it, even when you say its 2 weeks driving round in clrcles in the middle of knowhere. (its an ex RAf base).

Happy memories. Landed there many times in the late 1960s in my short RAF flying career. Odd to see it just fields now. The living quarters and Messes were amongst conifers? Could it be those in the background I wonder? The perimeter fence was just over four miles long. I know as we were made to run it most weekday mornings to keep us fit enough for flying the fighters based there. Testing will wear out the outside tyres just going round and round in a loop this tight.

 

[sarahj]

Well here is some info on it. http://www.mobility.siemens.com/mob...g-wildenrath-test-and-validationcenter-en.pdf

Google maps also shows it quite well. You can just make out the old base.
https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&ll=51.115485,6.237488&spn=0.031358,0.055189&t=h&z=14

 

[DownSouth]

Testing will wear out the outside tyres just going round and round in a loop this tight.

The test facility does have a triangle as part of the inner loop, which would allow a unit to be turned to run in the opposite direction.

 

[ainsworth74]

Oh well, nevermind. I'm sure all will be well and we will soon be sending out our drivers to learn the thing. Some are quite looking forward to it, even when you say its 2 weeks driving round in clrcles in the middle of knowhere. (its an ex RAf base).

Well that explains why I've always had a niggling feeling that I knew the name 'Wildenrath' in another context! I just hadn't made the connection of this test track being the former RAF Wildenrath.

 

[AM9]

Well here is some info on it. http://www.mobility.siemens.com/mob...g-wildenrath-test-and-validationcenter-en.pdf

Google maps also shows it quite well. You can just make out the old base.
https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&ll=51.115485,6.237488&spn=0.031358,0.055189&t=h&z=14

Wow, that's some trainset!

 

[deltic08]

Well here is some info on it. http://www.mobility.siemens.com/mob...g-wildenrath-test-and-validationcenter-en.pdf

Google maps also shows it quite well. You can just make out the old base.
https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&ll=51.115485,6.237488&spn=0.031358,0.055189&t=h&z=14

Thank you Sarah, I can see now. It goes around the whole former station instead of just the airfield making the loop longer than four miles. I will look at Google map later.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The test facility does have a triangle as part of the inner loop, which would allow a unit to be turned to run in the opposite direction.

I can see now. Just like my first trainset with one line across to reverse direction. I am surprised that the factory has not moved to this site.

 

[DownSouth]

I can see now. Just like my first trainset with one line across to reverse direction. I am surprised that the factory has not moved to this site.

What, and disrupt all the supply chains which are best suited to having their production facilities in major industrial areas?

Siemens have multiple production facilities all across Europe, they aren't a cottage industry outfit that builds one train at a time in a shed. There's not a lot of vacant land around the Wegberg-Wildenrath area to build a bunch of factories, and neither the single line connection to the mainline network or the local road network would be able to handle the traffic needed to bring together all their factories.

Once the pre-production vehicles have been signed off after a thorough testing program, the rest of the production run only needs to clock up commissioning runs in off-peak periods on the regular mainline and would see no gain from being built right alongside a busy test facility that they wouldn't need to use.

The Wegberg-Wildenrath facility also performs work for other companies, which would help explain the centralised location that hasn't been placed alongside a Siemens factory.

 

[Class377/5]

Its got bigger since then as Siemens justified a second large track (DC electrified IIRC) on the basis of the Thameslink order.

 

[DownSouth]

If true, that's rather bizarre.

They've had British-style third rail available on both the small (100 km/h) and large (160 km/h) loops for years now, and it would seem rather odd that they'd expect this order to need such a huge amount more pre-production testing than any other order that it justified a new track.

 

[jon0844]

Why are they testing at all? Just put them into service, discover loads of faults and have them sent back for modifications. Simple.

That's the British way!

 

[C2L]

new update on http://schoenemanndesign.co.uk/

http://schoenemanndesign.co.uk/2014/09/11/thameslink-signage/

 

[Emyr]

The blue flashes for the Wheelchair zone are good, but the FirstClass signage isn't prominent enough if you don't intend to use it and want to make sure you get on board, or get a seat.

 

[starrymarkb]

Thank you Sarah, I can see now. It goes around the whole former station instead of just the airfield making the loop longer than four miles. I will look at Google map later.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I can see now. Just like my first trainset with one line across to reverse direction. I am surprised that the factory has not moved to this site.

The factory isn't that far away (and is right in the Rhur Industrial area) - proabably about the same distance as Old Dalby is from Derby

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/K...0e72c9ce0c389e!2m2!1d6.215556!2d51.111389!5i2

 

[physics34]

The blue flashes for the Wheelchair zone are good, but the FirstClass signage isn't prominent enough if you don't intend to use it and want to make sure you get on board, or get a seat.

not too sure that this will be the livery worn on the production sets

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Google maps also shows it quite well. You can just make out the old base.
https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&ll=51.115485,6.237488&spn=0.031358,0.055189&t=h&z=14

To the north outside the big oval you can see some very British street names: Britannia Way, Vulcan Avenue, Canberra Crescent etc.
I guess this was the base residential area.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Ahem - once visited to do with the new 350's for WCML way back - asked the friendly German traction inspector if it was an ex WW2 base. Response was it was a post WW2 aircraft base.....not so friendly after that.....